Hello all, I have found this site so interesting and I want to be a responsible SDO... the bitch is in season and we are due to have our first mating next week. I know I should now write up a contract, but I do not know what it should say ? The bitches owner has rung the Rottweiler association who told her that we do not get paid until the puppies are born ? I have offered to let our male service her bitch 3 times in this season. Is this reasonable ? As our male is unproven she has said we can only charge £350.00 ? I like the idea of a £50 non refundable service fee, as it is my time and my house where this will be taking place. Please if anyone can tell me if all this sounds ok and not let me fall into a bad habits !! Thank you....

Well, I would think that you are in control of the situation, but you MUST make your intentions clear at the outset to the bitch owner. Then they either accept your criteria or they don't. That's why it's advisable to get all the important stuff in writing. If you want £50 as a one off sevice fee, then say so but also say how much you expect per puppy, and say it before the mating, and get a signature.

You make the rules, but once they are made and in writing, keep your side of the deal. Once signed up, the bitch owner must keep their side of the deal too. Be fair, and insist on fairness in return.

Dawn R.

Very wise, as having read previous peoples problems, not everyone is as they seem, sadly. I just don't know how to draw up the contract !!!! I do want to be fair, and don't want any extra pressure for the other breeder as it will be a tough enough time as it is... thanks for your
wisdom...

For an unproven dog it's quite common to agree a total stud fee (in my breed somewhat less than the price of a puppy), but with a nominal fee (say £50) payable at the time of mating (even if there's more than one mating, there should be only one fee) with the balance paid either on confirmation of pregnancy or the birth of live pups.

The nominal fee is non-refundable, because a mating actually took place.

Thanks for this info, it is becoming clear as to what I should be drawing up as a contract...I will only charge the min fee of course, until he is proven ! It is a mind field not having done this before and can see how easy it is to get caught up thinking one thing and doing another. Any advice is greatly received.THANKS....

I took my bitch to an unproven stud, and his owner said she liked t do things "the old fashioned way" -she said that meant as the boy was unproven we'd only pay half of the fee she'd otherwise ask, and she'd only want the money once puppies had actually been born. (Of course, the paperwork wasn't signed until we paid.)

I thought this was very fair. I wasn't asked for a fee for the owner's time etc but would have been happy to pay that as it makes sense.

Marianne

Just a little note to say that in our stud contract we include an extra handling fee if the bitch comes without any form of ovulation test (cytology or blood test) as it's very time consuming to have a bitch turn up at the wrong time for her (and possibly us)  but the right time for the owners!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

We have counted the days from the start of her season and agreed to bring the pair together next week on her 10th day, would you say it was too late for me now to request she has the cytology test done ?

I feel the same as both of them are unproven ! and I do not want either of us to feel like we are out of pocket.. I just wanted to make sure that everything I have been told seems correct, and so far it is ! With the help of everyone so far, I think I am now able to write a sensible contract up and go from there. Thanks for all the advice.

The mating of maiden dog and bitch is often not easy.  Have you handled a stud dog before?

I haven't, but we are having the help of some one who has !!! I hope she is as experienced as she says she is ! I have read as much as I can, I hope ! The dogs have met up and been on walks together. Anything you could advice would be greatly appreciate mind ! Thanks.

You don't need anythign fancy just a note saying what the fee is when it is payable, what happens if the bitch misses, etc.  If you are charging a service charge then put that down too, I suggest payable after mating.

If the dog proves fertile I cannot see why his fee should be lower than normal, if it was paybale at service then I could understand it, but if payable when pups born then I would expect to pay the price of a puppy in my breed. 

I would ask the breed club myself what the normal stud rates and procedures are.

I know, same thoughts exactly, but I did ask the breeder I got my dog from and she has said the same !!!! If anyone out there knows why this should be, then please let me know.... I would have thought if you do not get paid until the pups are born, then the fee would be the same ? !!!! This is why I was asking in the first place, as I was not sure if this was correct !
Thanks for the note..

I've pmd you.  Look at the top right of your screen and you will see messages, click on there and you will get my message :d  Hope it helps.

Have you asked the breed club if they have any standardised forms.  The dalmatian club do one and I wouldnt have thought they were the only ones.  When we used Thomas for the first time we charged £100 less than his usual fee.  I am afraid
I took the view if someone wanted to use my dog I wanted them to use him because he was a good enough example of the breed and not just because he was cheap!

Are both rotts scored , as for the stud fee if you intend waiting for it then i agree with others that the going price  should be paid, not knowing your lines  or your dog id charge a reasonable  but fair price.

I still do not understand why a unproven dog who has a very good bloodline should only charge
anything less than the going fee, but it seems to be the case where Rotties are concerned. Unless anyone who already has one knows anything different ? They are both hipscored, both good scores..and as I say ours has 3 CC's  in his line...

With an unproven dog a) you don't know if he's fertile, and b) you don't know what quality of puppy he's going to sire.

>as I say ours has 3 CC's  in his line...

Do you mean three Champions in a 5-generation pedigree? How far back? Unless they're three of his grandparents it's not really a 'very good bloodline' ...

Jeangenie, thanks for explaining, it makes sense now !  The three CC's come from an uncle, and grandparents... is it still reasonable to say he has a good bloodline ?

It's a tad minimal :) for instance one of mine has 8 champions out of the 14 dogs in her 3 generation pedigree and I know other posters on here can claim many more than that.  If yours is a very fine example it could still be worth considering but I don't really think you could expect any less that 3 in a dog considered worth putting back into the gene pool.

Can also work the other way round too,  None of my dogs have less tha 15 Champs in 5 line ped, with 3 of them having champs in every generation for 5 gens.  One has 33 Champs in 5 gen ped, but I still do not consider him good enough to use in a breeding programme.  Just to say that having a few champs is not a good enough reason to breed.

Yes that is true, the example I gave was never shown or bred from either as she really wasn't up to the mark although her sister, in other hands, was.  But at least it shows that a great deal of the pedigree was fruitful in terms of producing dogs of sufficient quality to gain that level of success and the foundations were there requiring just the final link to be matched. 

Isabel, What breed of dogs are you talking about ?

Dandie Dinmont Terrier but the same would apply to any breed.

My boys each have 21 Champions in their pedigree (well they would, being litter brothers!) and their uncle was breed CC record holder for some time, but only one of them is good enough to breed from - the other is hopeless!

KAYC, What would you say was a good enough reason to breed ?

Ouch, why pick on me ;)

both stud AND bitch are of exceptional quality (not just excellent quality).
both stud or bitch can add to the gene pool
both stud and bitch can improve on the standard as set out by the breed club council
both stud and bitch have proven themselves in their respective field (show or working)
both stud and bitch compliment each other and with a ++ to add to the gene pool

to keep progeny from litter for future campaigning in the ring. 

There may be others but, if I cannot truthfully say that I can fulfill the above reasons, then there is not a good enough reason to breed.  (My opinion)

Sorry if it came across that way ! I was trying to understand your reasonings.   If someone wanted a breed that happened to be a pedigree what should they look out for if they want a family pet and not interested in the paperwork as they had no intention of breeding/showing. Would it still be irresponsible to breed from a dog with only 3 CC's ? Only asking ...honest

People wanting a pet will still want a dog that strongly resembles what they have seen in books, owned before etc and the surest way of getting that is to buy from lines that have shown well as they will be strongly typical of the breed.  In many breeds they are a great number of specimens bred without regard to this and type is soon.  In addition, with some breeds disregard to breeding to show quality can lead to things like poor coats that are extremely hard for the pet owner to maintain in a healthy weatherproof condition, poor mouths with dentition problems etc. therefore it is in even in the pet owners interest to seek to purchase from a litter that has been bred to hopefully produce something for the show ring.
It is possible to have a good specimen with few champions in the pedigree but I think it takes more knowledge.  If few dogs have been assessed in the show ring as quality you are obviously left with a lot more blanks to get to know more about. 
You keep saying 3 CCs I presume you mean three Champions, normal abreviation being CH and not just 3 challenge certificates, CC, between them.

dont worry, just my wierd sense of humour, hence the smiley :)

In all honest, only the best should be bred from, I know this is not what happens, we dont live in a perfect world.  But the pet market really does stem from show/working breeders.  Many of the offspring from a 'perfect' (I use the word lightly) will end up in pet homes. 

Personal experience ==== Out of a litter of nine pups from a full 5 line ped of, UK/Nor/Belg/International Champions, only 3 of these pups were good enough for the showring, the others went to excellent pet homes. Out of the 3 that went on to show only 2 are good enough to breed on from.

But, what if I had kept the 2pups that were good enough and only campaigned one lightly, so that the other could go further, It is only conjecture, but the chances are, I would not use him.  Why?  because I wouldnt need to since the brother is an exceptional dog, and would be enough to keep the genetics I want in my line.  (I can see this hole I am digging reaching Australia shortly) :P 

So no, it would not be irresponsible as such, but what exceptional qualities does he have to add to the gene pool.  If he had none, then that would be irresponsible.

IMO a family pet should be of the best quality possible, there should be no division of breed standard between pet quality and show quality.  Breeding should be to maintain or improve the standard, and for no other reason.

Perfectly worded Kay :-)

I agree, the dogs are always going to be the same quality be it first time or last time surely ?
We have come to an agreement and this time charging £125 less than we would if we did it again ! We met up with the dogs before we started going into discussions about money.. I am only pleased that I have had help drawing up a contract.. there are some very helpful people in the dog world.. thanks to you who have helped...

I know all breeds seem to be different as to whats the norm, in my breed its fairly common for the bitch owner to pay when pups are born, and quite often it is so much per pup, which I think is pretty fair. If you do it this way, make sure you cover EVERY eventuality in writing and get it signed before your dog goes anywhere near the bitch. For instance what would the fee be if the bitch had five pups but two died straight away, would you charge for five or three, what if the pups died one day, three days, a week later what would you charge then?What would be done if the bitch produced only one pup and you wanted a pup in leiu of stud fee? There's lots of things to cover. Make sure you don't sign the KC forms until you have been paid, got your pup or whatever. Good luck.

Husky, thanks, have gone for a non refundable fee to cover my time, and a nominal fee after pups born no matter how many... seems  easier this way.. as you say too much to cover ... I hope if we are fair then we would feel good about this mating... we have offered 4 meetings and a free one if the bitch misses...

Do you or the bitch owner show your dogs , if not how recommendable ,and unusual that 2 pet owners bothered to have the dogs scored , what score did they both get ?

Have to agree having champions doesn't mean that the pups are going to be of champion status in the future.  I look at the dogs as a whole, research the dogs behind them and see if they fit the breed type.  I think the red wording on pedigrees can be sometimes over-rated as I've seen some dogs that hardly represent their breed with lots of red on their pedigree :d