I've got the book of the bitch along with about ten other books on the breed i'm interested in, but what really struck me was the fact that the author mentions culling pups if you've gone to close with linebreeding and they're all deformed, so my question to use is have you had to put some of your pups down because lets say they've had swimmers?  or a deformed palate, soft spot or something more serious?

warm regards Susan

It's recommended that puppies with conditions that would seriously affect their quality of life are humanely put to sleep as soon as possible. It's not limited to inbred or linebred pups - outcrosses can be affected too.

Hello Susan

In over 30 years of breeding (av < 1 litter a year) I can count on one hand the number of pups I have had pts because of malformation. 

I would expect that inbreeding (close linebreeding) does increase the chances of producing these defects as it is more likely to double up on hidden recessive genes and would usually results in one or two affected pups in a litter but not all congenital malformations are genetic in origin.  They are sometime due to insult in utero which I would suspect if a whole litter was affected.

Julie

Hi,
I have heard some dreadfull stories of loosing pups, deformed ect;
But!! I always thought the deformaties were,  by inbreeding? to close!
Regards
Denese

Inbreeding can't create genetic problems that aren't already there - but it can reveal unsuspected hidden recessives.

Hi Jeangenie,

Do you think it is trial and error? What do you think about mating niece
with uncle!!! No seen Genetic problems. To close?
Or do you think like people it's is 90% likley to be a problem?
Regards
Denese

With any mating you do research into both sire's and dam's background - and relatives! You don't just look at the two individuals - you study what produced them, and what else they've produced. A sound healthy uncle and niece, with no 'nasties' lurking in the background generations, could be okay. However, the proof is always in the pudding! ;)

Just out of interest, why is it likely to be 90% a problem in humans?

So using this line of thought denese, does that mean those people who lose babies or whose children suffer from some sort of deformity etc are as the result of inbreeding?

Hi tohme,

Not always!! But! in the culture's were you can marry Uncle, cusin, niece.
YES!! there is a very high chance of handicap babies. Surgery can try to put some right,
But!! others are mentally handicapped. Some die at birth, or there moms miss carry.
Had dealings with quite a lot. Most of there extended familys care for them. If they live.
Genetics!!
Regards
Denese

The closer the breeding, the higher the risk of producing HEREDITARY defects.  It's as simple as that.  The lowest risk would be from outcross and ultimately crossbred litters.  This applies to most hereditary defects, not just congenital.  Dogs are said to carry many of these recessives, most of them rare in dogs in general so researching pedigrees will not always help.

Julie

Hi Julie,
So really Julie, it isn't a risk worth taking. Not fair on the pup's or the bitch.
Even if they looked O.K. there could be hidden defects.
God, while I am typing this we are having the most dreadfull thunderstorm,
The roof of the veranda is taking a bashing.
Regards
Denese

There is no breeding completely without risk.  It's a case of weighing up the advantages and the perceived risk involved.  You just need to be fully aware of the facts and as knowledgeable about the bloodlines as possible. I'm not against inbreeding per se. I've done a father/daughter mating myself.

julie

Hi Val,
Now, I'm intrested. Did you get what you were aiming for? Temprement, build, and looks!!!
or was it a mixed bunch!!
Regards
Denese

It was a very even litter in type and size and all healthy so far at 7yrs.  All went to pet homes except the bitch I kept.  She is very nice in construction, temperament etc, just a bit short of coat and bone.  The only one to be bred from (outcrossed to my own import dog), she produced the first UK bred Int Ch in our breed (Finnish Lapphund) so has proved her worth as a brood.

Julie

Hi Julie,
That was a great achievement!! so you did get what you wanted.
That gives me a good insite. It is difficult to get everyones experiences.
I know what I want in my dogs. You have just given me the encouragement
to go for it.
Regards
Denese

Hi Julie,

What is your opionion on a good chap. dog "linebreed" excellent temprement,
with a cross bitch, nice in bone, size, temprement, coat ect;With  Champ. grandparents.
one side "linebreed" do you think it is possible for the pups to inherit any hidden defects? 1-10

Regards
Denese

Hi Julie,
Sorry not Val.
Regards
Denese

Susantwenty,

I know in my breed (that I'm not actually in yet!!) that SOME breeders will put what they call mis-marks to sleep, because it is seen as a failed attempt at breeding good specimins of the breed, and would never tell anyone that they had a mis-mark in the first place. A 'mis-mark' is a dog that has too much white on his belly or around his collar - to me, this shows no reason to put them to sleep, but then there are dogs born with no pigment around their eyes and ears, and this often indicates that the pup is, or will become, deaf and blind, some breeders believe the breeder should keep these pups, or find a very experienced home for these pup's, or they should be pts at birth, as obviously to be both deaf and blind will seriously effect the dogs quality of life - I wouldn't want to make that choice.

I believe that around 20 years ago, a few American breeders decided they were going to come clean about the mis-marks and tried to get everyone to do the same, they were eventually 'run out of town' so to speak, and are no longer breeding or showing :( It is quite a sorry state of affairs, the mis-marks will be as healthy and have as good a temperament as the rest of the litter, but just because there is too much white when compared to the breed standard, they are pts, to save the breeder having to admit that somewhere along the line a mistake was made. I am glad to say that our breeder would NEVER put a pup to sleep just because they have too much white :D

Hi Natalie,
That is awful to put them to sleep just because of miss markings!!
Why!!! not just sell them as pets!!
Regards
Denese

It's as I said, some breeders feel they have something to hide if any pups are mis-marked. It is very sad, especially when there are many people who would love to have them as a pet. I will point out as well, that certainly my breeder asks for a lot less money for a mis-mark than even a 'pet quality' pup.

Sounds like a simple answer denese, but these days the world and his wife think of themselves as a dog breeder, regardless of the quality of their dog and regardless of their lack of knowledge. 
Years ago merle Danes, for example, were put to sleep at birth because they weren't an acceptable colour.  Now many are pet homed without papers, but that doesn't stop the owners breeding them to other non registered pets, without health testing, and selling them to unsuspecting families.

Hi Val,
I do agree, people just get two dogs and breed!!! it upsets me when I see my breed of dog
that has just been breed and sold to people who know nothing about the breed. If you think
to deep it can break your heart. I try hard to dismiss it, I prefer not to know.
I think both sides of the coin are as bad, the breeder that gets rid of the pups because
they are not what she wanted, to the other type of people that just breed to get some extra cash,
Not caring about the dogs or pups.
Regards
Denese

wat colour is a merle great dane?

Hi Jeangenie, when breeding dogs then what is the best line of action to take? regarding inbreeding, linebreeding or outcrossing, if you've done all your research, in other words which in your opinion makes the healthiest puppies what are very close to the standards?

Warm regards Susan

My personal preference is for linebreeding. If I'm buying in a pup, and the mating's an outcross, I'll ask lots of questions about what the breeder was hoping to introduce into the line, and why that particular stud was used. I'm not a natural gambler, you see!
:)

What does everyone think about temprement problems and linebreeding too closely? Does anyone have any experience of this? I have two 4 year old borzoi boys, both neutered now. I owned their great grandfather on sires side and their granddad on dams side and both were wonderful dogs. I know almost every single dog in the last 5 generations personally, and liked every single one - some more than others obviously :)  These two boys are very closely line bred to one dog, a very well known dog who was top stud and used a lot. The dog himself had an excellent temprement as did all of his progeny that I know off. I've had my two boys since they were 6 weeks old, they've been very well socialised and were very confident happy puppies, never phased by anything. At about a year old they went through the normal teenage stage, but unfortunately they just got worse after that. They are now very agressive to other dogs and have to be muzzled when walked and only let off their leads in securely fenced fields. It's been very upsetting for me, I've owned 9 other borzois (mostly related to these two) and none have been like this. These will be the last two borzois I own. I know of a few dogs now in their generation that don't have the temprements you would hope for and wonder if we've just went too close now? Physically they are gorgeous and both won champ show best puppy in breeds and one a res cc as a youngster. I had them neutered in the hope it would help, and to some degree it has, but also I would never want to breed from anything that was not 100% reliable.

chaumsung when i was reading the genetics book by Malcom Willis, it's says in that that a dog can get to xxs and y instead of having the normal x and y.  If they do get two xxs and a y they become more aggressive the same thing can happen to people and thats why must serious violent offenders are in jail.  Not saying this has happened to your dogs but it could have.  With you having the two does one copy off the other ones behaviour you might be better taking them out separatley.

Hi Jeanegeni know when you are talking about line breeding and researching generations how far back are you talking?

Warm regards Susan

>know when you are talking about line breeding and researching generations how far back are you talking?

As many as possible! If possible, find out all about all the individuals in a five-generation pedigree, and their other relatives! But you need to do that with out-crossing as well, of course - so as well as knowing your bitch's entire family you also have a whole new set of the stud's to learn about too!

Thanks for the help Jeangenie, i know to buy year books but what other way can you research your dogs family history to.  Can i just ask one more question, if you dont mind.  When line breeding and you've done all your research what generation isn't to close to mate with is it 3,4,6 or 8 generation back?

Warm regards Susan

>what other way can you research your dogs family history to. 

I spend a lot of time chatting with breeders, asking them about their (and others') dogs. There's more information on 'the grapevine' than in any amount of books. :)

>what generation isn't to close to mate with

That all depends on what your research has found! ;) Some dogs I wouldn't touch with a bargepole ...

Hi Susan

I think the aggression thing is associated with the extra Y (male) chromosome and I would think very rare in dogs.

Julie

This is an interesting topic now isn't it. Susantwenty thanks for your reply - I'm going to do some more research into genetics, which have always interested me anyway. Of course it doesn't alter the daily challenge to exercise and entertain these boys whilst keeping the rest of the world safe...but I would love to have an answer as to why they're like this :)

Hi chaumsong

Temperament is complicated as it is greatly influenced by environment.  I haven't heard of any assocation between inbreeding and temperament problems.  If others in the litter also have similar traits, then you could suspect that the dog you inbred to carried the genes for this temperament but environment (his upbringing etc) overode the expression of these genes.  Possibly inbreeding to him "concentrated" the genes too.  JMO :-)

Julie

I agree about temperment.  I have only ever had one problem with a dog I sold and the woman lived on a farm and never socialised the dogs.  Mine are probably the worst behaved of the ones I breed mainly because they live with 3 kids who hype them up. 

I have done a very close mating last time half brother to half sister same sire in common and several other close relatives in the line and providing there are no inherited defects you are aware of then I dont think it should be a problem.  The only thing I wasnt aware of until afterwards was the sire had thrown a megaoesophagus before and both parents were from the same gene pool the risk was a lot higher but then I know of other defects which other lines carry so it is swings and roundabouts.  I dont think I would do it again though as a fault with high tails which neither parents have but the grandsire does came through.  They were gorgeous puppies though.

Hi Julie, thanks for your replies - all very interesting. My boys were from a litter of 6, one bitch I haven't seen since 10 weeks. The other 3, 2 dogs and 1 bitch, are still with their breeder and have had various health and temprement problems. One of the males is neutered too as was aggressive with people and dogs, the other male cannot be walked with any other males on the farm - even his uncle etc. The bitch is a really sweet character - strange that it's just the boys isn't it.

Hi Mini-Meg

Merle is more or less the same in all breeds so would be very much like that in the Collie breeds.  As Danes don't have brown, "red" merle wouldn't be possible but black pigmented merle (known as blue merle) would be most common with dilute blue merle also possible.

Merle is an unavoidable byproduct of breeding harlequin so could only be eliminated from the breed if harlequin was also.

Julie

Hi Chaumsung Julie does know alot more than me about genetics, she was the one who recommend the genetics book to me to get, thanks Julie.

warm regards Susan