Hello,

I would like to hear opinions on the MRI scans available for Syringomyelia. Are they accurate and do they give you a definate answer as to whether your dog has or will get SM??? I have heard lots of stories about dogs being given the all clear only to be PTS months later.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Debbie

I have a dog with no symptoms but who has Syringohydromyelia The MRI scans are very clear & certainly  I have heard no stories of asymptomatic dogs being scanned CLEAR & then having SHM & being PTS within months

Milo's MRI scan was inconclusive I believe but you would have to contact Joyce for full information. He may or may not have had as bad a malformation as my dog who is his son but he did have SHM

Puppies can be scanned at 6 months & the malformation can be seen although the enlarged venticles/sphinx may not be evident

I do wish people would stop finding excuses not to have their dogs done, for example my dogs brother who is still being used at stud dispite having  SHM sufferers for a father & brother, the owner will not have him either blood sampled or scanned unless he has symptoms the same goes for their mother & she too has been bred from after my dog was diagnosed(only one puppy that died)

What a lot of rubbish is being spouted by IMHO people trying to hide their heads in the sand & hoping it will go away, which it won't

As for lots of stories Hmmm This would mean lots of asymptomatic dogs have been scanned which they haven't my dog was one of the first with no symptoms to be scanned.

Their may be some where the malformation is small but who go on to develop the sphinx etc but I know of no dogs without symptoms who have been scanned clear & then have gone on to develop symptoms

It doesn't happen within months as the build up of pressure does not occur overnight

If you want to talk to an expert contact Mr Geoff Skerritt Chester Gates Referral Hospital Telford Court Chester Gate Chester CH1 6LT.
Tel: 01244 853823 Email: SKERRVET@aol.com  & you will get the correct information

or

Mr Andrew Robinson
Dovecote Veterinary Hospital
5 Delven Lane
Castle Donington
Derbyshire, DE74 2LJ.

Tel: 01332 810395.

Email: alisonrobinson@dovecoteveterinaryhospital.co.uk

or

Dr Nick Jeffery
University of Cambridge, Department of Veterinary Medicine
Maddingley Road
Cambridge,CB3 OES

Tel: (Main Reception) 01223 337621

Email: ndj1000@cam.ac.uk

The above 2 vets also offer reduced cost scans. A dog scanned unaffected can still be a carrier, and as far as I know they have not found any real correlation between the scan results and the severity or indeed appearance of symptoms. My dog also has a positive scan but no symptoms, so fingers crossed!!

But of course at this time dogs with scans that show the malformations must not be used at stud until the DNA marker genes are found & a test devised

Very true, although with only a couple of unaffected dogs, we may well have to breed from any much older dogs with no symptoms in the end, say over 7 years old, like we do with the heart problem - try to breed from older dogs with clear hearts. I'm glad my puppy's only 7 months and I don't have to worry about finding her a mate for another 18 months! Perhaps by then the research will be nearer devising a test!

The latest work on this does suggest that it may be more complicated than a simple autosomal recessive, with varying degrees of expression.

"Recent data has suggested that occipital bone hypoplasia
in the CKCS is inherited (Rusbridge and Knowler 2003,
2004). The disease has a tendency to be more severe in each
subsequent generations, that is, breeding mildly affected
dogs can result in offspring with more severe disease and an
earlier onset. An early observation from study of an extended
CKCS family with a high incidence of syringomyelia suggests
that apparently normal parents of clinically affected offspring
have mild occipital hypoplasia/syringomyelia detectable by
MRI only (unpublished data). A consistent observation is
that all clinically affected dogs have 3-4 grandparents and
6-8 great-grandparents descended from pivotal ancestors
that anecdotally had produced affected offspring, some over
30 years ago (Rusbridge and Knowler 2003, 2004)."

Ref
Rusbridge et al June 2005; Inherited Occipital Hypoplasia/Syringomyelia in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: Experiences in Setting Up a Worldwide DNA Collection

Julie

Which is why my boy will never be bred from unlike his brother who has now produced 3 litters & is still up st stud :( The simple fact that my dog has SHM means that his brother should be scanned asap & until then removed from stud  sadly this will not happen as his owners obviously have no problem with passing on SHM to future generation. My boys brother must be at the very least a carrier & the fact that Lou's malformation is worse that his fathers should ring alarm bells

I have come to a very very sad realisation that I may never own another cavalier I could not face having another one who may die because breeders can't be bothered to scan or test

Thank you very much for your replies,

It would certainly appear that I have been mis-informed about the MRI scans. There's silly old me holding off until the vets had made a little more progress with identification. I have sent emails to each of the vets listed and will be taking my girls for their scans as soon as possible. I cannot believe that so many breeders are not bothering and think it is just totally disgraceful, they should be ashamed of themselves. I feel that all stud dogs should have been tested by now and they should not be able to advertise their services in the cavalier club books until this has taken place.
Is there a list of tested dogs and the results available anywhere??

Debbie

Hi All,  Now I'm even more confused if that's possible !!  I have emailed all the vets above and this is the reply I have been given.

When we scan for syringohydromyelia we are able to tell you whether the condition is present (or not) on the day of scanning.

We are not able to predict from this whether the condition will develop subsequently in a dog that is negative when scanned.

It has only been possible to investigate this condition since MRI scanning became more widely available in the last few years- although sporadic clinical cases have been documented over the years, definitive diagnosis was mainly only possible at post mortem.  Thus although we now have a reliable means of diagnosis in the live animal, we still do not have enough information to be able to say what the chances are of a negative young adult animal going on to develop the condition.  There is research currently being carried out into DNA profiles of affected and unaffected animals, which may eventually be of more predictive value than imaging techniques such as MRI, which provide a diagnosis on the day of the test.

So, it would appear I was not totally mis-informed and testing dogs with no symptoms would be pointless. Ok so it can tell you if your dog has the condition on that day but not whether it will get it any time in the future.
Back to the drawing board I guess.

Debbie

What the scan will show is whether or not the malformation of the skull is present & from this you can see whether or not the condition may develop, obviously the older the dog the less likely it is to develop SHM

Please note my dog who has SHM is asymptomatic ie he has no symptoms yet which is what the vets mean  They cannot tell whether or not he will develop symptoms not whether or not he will develop SHM because he has SHM now

So if you chose not to MRI scan your dogs & if any puppies they produce you would be liable because you failed to MRI scan the parents which is the only method at present to see whether a dog has SHM without symptoms & as such are being negligent

The reason the vets do not say we can tell you if SHM will or will not develop is because they do not know as yet whether it can develop as the dog gets older. this is one reason we had one dog done last year(the son of V Quest)& the other will be done later this year(in bred only on one side of his pedigree) This is at the request of the MRI vet so that he can have some older dogs scanned

Please note the reasrch is being co ordinated between the scanning/neurologists  vets & Clare & the genetic researchers

is there anyway of knowing what percentage have clear scans ?

I only know of two so far & one of them is a 7 year old clear dog & the other is one is someone elses & I would have thought people would have been telling everyone if their Cav was clear I know I would

And I think one is a carrier? Though I'm not sure, you know what the grapevine is like for garbling messages. I think there are a few clear bitches around too. My boy has the malformation but NO SYMPTOMS yet which fingers crossed is the most important thing!

Your boy is like mine then which is why I am so cross that his brother & mother are still being bred from, when I spoke to the lady at Leeds who has the clear dog she was just going into the ring with a (different)dog so didn't get a chance to ask her any details

I know at one time ***** had no clears & a bitch she is showing has SHM & has mild symptoms, she is being very open about it which it totally the opposite to certain top kennels who are keeping their heads down

Yes the lack of symptoms is the thing & this is why it is believed it may be three genes that govern symptoms & the malformation

I agree that the subject is at times confusing,there is still so much we do not know and may not know for years. I  just felt it right as a breeder to find out as much as I could about the health of any bitch I want to breed from. I have at present a mother and daughter  MRI'd completely clear.
     It was not an easy decision and it will be a long haul but I feel it was the right choice. Breeding later and scanning have got to be better than doing nothing. This is my take on the situation I am learning all the time.
      Evelyn

Hi,

Do you intend to have your clear dogs scanned every year though?? Maybe I am just getting it all a little confused but just because your dog is scanned clear doesn't mean that it is fine for the rest of it's life and it could develop the condition at any stage.
I too had heard that Expression has a clear scan.

Debbie

If the dog doesn't have the malformation it cannot develop later & if there is no malformation then the odds that a dog will develop SHM isvirtually  nil

What the vets cannot predict is that if the dog has the malformation but no sphinx or enlarged ventricles that the sphinx & enlarged ventricles will not develop later

Jewel do you actually understand what SHM is ?

SHM involves the Chiari type malformations and the herniation of the brain through the malformation which then prevents the cerebral fluid from draining from the brain & produces the enlarged ventricles & pressure in the brian & also the sphinx in the spine. It is this that produces(they think)the symptoms of distinctive scratching at the shoulder, pain when touched in the neck, shoulder & front leg areas & the head tilt

The degree of symptoms of dogs with SHM varies from none in dogs like Lucy's & mine to severe like Milos(who MRI was inconclusive BTW) & also another friends dog who has periods of acute pain(he hasn't been MRI'd but doesn't need to be as he has very obvious symptoms)

There is no need to scan dogs without the malformation yearly as they will not develop the herniation as the skull is correctly formed & they are the ones described as clear, dogs that have the malformation & no herniation cannot be called clear  but they do NOT have SHM. The certificate is in three parts, one for the Cerebellar Herniation, one for the Sphinx & one for the Venticular Dilation

BTW your post on the CKCS forums has been answered by the retired vet on there exactly I have advised ie that ALL dogs intended for breeding should be scanned(my dogs brother & mother have not been scanned & the owners have no intention of having them done either)

Barbara

The dogs that have symptoms of SHM can have varying degrees & it has been found that the younger the age at which the symptoms develop(can be under 6 months)the more severe they tend to be & the pain caused can be so severe that short of a shunt being plced between the skull & the spinal column to release the cerbral fluid there is little apart from giving  painkillers & drugs like frusamide that can be done & if these two actions do not reduce the pain then sadly death is the only other option

It is believed that SHM is governed by at least 3 genes which is why the MRI scan & DNA blood sampling research is so importent.

However some of the top & biggest kennels are not taking part & doing the head in the sand act hoping if they do nothing it will pass them by

Most people know that SHM exists but actually know nothing about it at all except that some dogs scratch, they are not aware of the actual physical causes of SHM

I have been reading about this problem but am stil undlear what it is.  I am sure you may have explained it but what does it do to the dog and how does it affect health?

Moonmaiden will have the science much better than me, but basically the back of the skull has something called a Chiari malformation which causes the brain to bulge out of the back. Then this can lead to syrinxes which are some sort of fluid filled sacs running down the spinal cord. This can cause symptoms ranging from mild scratching to severe agony and partial paralysis. It can sometimes be helped by operations and strong steroid painkillers, but in its worst form there is not much you can do but put the dog to sleep. Sorry moonmaiden if I've garbled the science!!

I think we have covered it between us Lucy

It is a concern to owners like us who have dogs with SHM & no symptoms because no one until this past couple of years has been scanning asymtomatic dogs so the vets have no way of knowing when or even if they will ever develop symptoms because until last year none had been scanned

It will be a long time before I have another cavalier I think Not until headway is made on the DNA side, the good thing is like with CEA & CL in BC's the Americans are on board & will be funding the resaerch in the USA. They are so much keener to discover the genetic side that anyone else seems to be. There is a lot I don't particuarly like about the dog scene in the USA but on the health research side I don't think they can be faulted very much of at all

I know what you mean, but I can't imagine having anything except a Cavalier, they're the best dogs ever!! Perhaps if / when I have a tragedy with SM I will change my mind, but hopefully my boy will never show symptoms and have a long healthy life - unless I strangle him!!  :-) :-)

IT seems to me the earlier poster may have been being rather harsh on the UK researchers who got the ball rolling.  They've devoted a large chunk of their lives to researching the problem.   I'll be forever grateful that they paid an interest in "the scratchy thing" and started the research. 

The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (UK) has articles covering most of the issues discussed here recently.  Of interest may be the January 2004 Research News which includes breeding recommendations.  They do not rule out using a dog who has produced affected offspring.  Many breeders are having their stud dogs MRI'd and delaying breeding the girls til they're over three. 

I also have heard of cases where symptoms have shown up without the herniation, and as more dogs are MRI'd, and the research progresses, no doubt more will be revealed.  Breeders were urged not to act hastily in neutering boys.  It appears that the problem may be showing up erratically, rather like MVD, so delaying breeding will help eliminate the early onset cases, while the research continues.  Since so many dogs seem to live quite well with the herniation and without symptoms, there may be something else contributing.  Time will tell.    

Please may I remind members that the laws of libel apply to the internet. By all means discuss this subject, but please refrain from comments that may be libelous. Please also seek permission before quoting subject matter from other forums. Copyright laws apply.

I quoted nothing from another forum only that the poster had received the same reply I had given. Also the breeder who has had name removed is quite open about the number of dogs she had scanned & than none were clear I have breached no copyright