Hi all just been to the vets today for a scan on my girl, she will 5 weeks tomorrow and only had 1 mating also had pre-mate done (don't worry health check done and hip scored) The vet palpated her and said that it looked very promising then she scanned her she was scanned lying on her side then on her back then standing at the beginning of the scan. we (me an the vet) thought we saw what looked like a puppy but then couldn't find anything after that hence scanned standing and lying on her back. she's a very lively girl who from a puppy has always pulled her tummy up when touched underneath, after the scan the vet again palpated and said she still thought she could feel puppies. I have to take her back next week for a further scan also she is still swollen around her genital area but no discharge. Has anyone had scans that showed nothing or maybe 1 pup but when palpated could feel more than 1? also I would have thought at 5 weeks we could have seen clearly. Any ideas? this bitch was also mated last season and went on to have a full phantom.

Thanks Pauline

Many have had dogs scanned which has showed no pups and ended up with pups and many have had them done to be told that their dogs have pups and then for their bitch to lose them.  I must admit I don't scan mine, I think they go through enough, but that is my feelings only.

I hope all goes well and fingers crossed for next week :d

Hi Canjoline. My bitch will be 5 weeks from 1st mating today and 4 weeks from last. She was scanned yesterday and we definitley saw at least 3. She was scanned standing up. My bitch missed last year to and this was confirmed by a sheep scanner rather than the vet, they are so much more accurate than vets.
To be honest If I'd have waited another week I would have known for sure as she has definitely "thickened" over the passed 4 days as I was really unsure if she was or not until Sunday, it was literally an overnight change!!!
I would imagine it would also depend on the breed as to wether she could be carrying them up high in her ribcage.
If she is you might see more signs before the next scan and might not need to get it done again. I'm not sure wether all bitches get a discharge, mine has but yours could be cleaning herself well and you might not notice it.
Fingers crossed for you, let us know how you get on :-)

The last time we mated her we didn't have her scanned all the way through i and some friends kept looking and saying yes she is no she isn't so that is one of the reasons that this time i thought we would have her scanned I also waited until she was 5 weeks so that hopefully we would only have to visit the vets once.. She does have a deep rib cage so i could imagine that when she tightens her tummy things could move up, although she's dainty and slim i hope we will see a difference in the next week.

When i took her for a pre-mate i watched her reaction to the vet and also the way the vet was with her. (the only time mine have been to the vets were as puppies and for their boosters). The vet was really good with her and Candy gave the vet lots of kisses so when it came to booking in for the scan i asked for the same vet, Candy was really relaxed and during the scan continued to wag her tail and kiss everyone in the room, if she had reacted differently there's no way i would even think of taking her back for a second scan.

thaks for your replys and i will keep you posted on the results of next weeks appointment

Depends how good the vet is at scanning.

I had my tual scanned 7 years ago, and the vet first palpated and said oh yes definately in whelp.

As I had boked a scan ascan I was going to get, but the poor woman couldn't get any to show.  I told her she was looking to far back and needed to go way up near ribs and she managed to see three.  WEnt onto have 7.

If you have a vet good at palpation without mauling them about then go with that if they are sure.

With my current vet he is very good with palpation. 

With my Kizi for her last litter we thought she had been mated on day 17, but her season was prolonged.  When he palpated at what would have been 4 weeks he was sure the pregnancy was not as far gone by what he felt, and he was quite right, and I didn't panic when she went 4 days over dates. 

Going by the prolonged season she was probably mated on day 12 around ovulation and wouldn't have conceived for at least two more days.  Not surprisingly the liter wasn't large.

I now don't bother scanning unless I get a negative with palpation, and then on scannign I fidn he is right.

This is my second litter from this breed (2 different bitches) last one we didn't scan or palpate as it was obvious that she was having pups. The thing is how do you tell if you vet is good at palpating? unless you know others who visit the same vets and have had their dogs palpated. I will soon see, the vet did appear to be thorough and patient without being rough if you know what i mean but each time i have seen her she seems to be that type of person and the dogs seem to like her unlike another one in the practice who i wouldn't like to go over any of my dogs

You ask.  The Vet will tell you if they are good at it. 

It is a definate knack. 

Palpation is something taught to vets to examine internal structures, but pregnancy diagnosis by this method is surely more of an art :D

Hi brainless my vet actually asked if she could palpate and said she still preferred the "oldfashioned method" of palpating which led me to believe that she wasn't too keen on the results of scans and preferred to see for herself with the hands on approach

Sounds like she like my vet is better at palpating than scanning.

you're probably right brainless lets hope so

Well took my bitch today for her second scan today she used to be timid at the vets but must have now decided that she likes them as they all make a fuss over her when they see her.
This time no palpatations (different vet) took her in for the scan and............. nothing there!!!! no puppies at all they scanned her sitting up and i had to hold her with her front paws up like in a begging position (probably the best way to see up in the ribs? i don't know) this is the second time she's missed maybe nature is trying to tell us something.
Thanks anyway to all of you that answered my question and good luck to anyone who is having pups or has had them.

Out 0of 9nterest have you had blood tests to check if and when she is ovulating.

A freidn mated her bitch to the dog twice and she missed and in between he sired litters.  The stud owner suggested she go elsewhere. She still wanted to use this dog. 

The second time she had one premate which showed she had ovulated, and they mated her no trouble.  She missed.

The third time they started testing earlier and ran a series of tests (as is recommended) and were able to pinpoint the rise in hormones.  She went on to have 10 puppies in a breed where 6 or 7 is more usual.

Hi Brainless if you mean did i have a pre-mate test done then yes i took her when my 7 month old boy started being interested we had a blood test done and was told to mate her within the next 24 - 48 hours so 32 hours later she was mated. The time before that we didn't have the pre-mate done and she missed so i thought i would play safe this time.

To get the best from the premate tests you realy need a series of two or more, otherwise all you really find out is that she has ovulated not when. 

If you have the first test done before she is likely to have ovulated, say day 8 and every two days after that until it shows ovulation imminent, when they should be done daily.  Then when it shows ovulation has occured you know when, and should mate the bitch 2 to 4 days after ovulation.

The bitch ovulates immature eggs which take around two days to reach a fertilizable state, and then stay viable for up to 48 hours after that.

What you did sounds exacrly what my freind did the secodn time of trying and failing, the third time she had the series of tests.

The test my vet uses sounds like that. If my bitch wasn't ready they would have told me to return in 2 days thats what happened when i had my other bitch pre-mated i had 3 tests done with her 1st one showed that we should return in 2 days the second one showed that we should return 1 day later and the 3rd one showed that we should mate within 24 - 48 hours.
When i took this bitch to the vets they did the same test and it showed that she should be mated 24-48 hours. I did ask the last time i went how they tell when the bitch is ready they told me that basically there are 3 colours the 1st one means that you need to re-test in 2 days time the second colour indicates mating shopuld take place 24-48 hours and the 3rd colour indicates that ovulation has already taken place i mated my other bitch when the second colour showed, only had the one mating and she had 5 puppies.

Actually the bitch won't conceive until at least two days after ovulation, the third colour.

My bitch ovulated on day 12 each time she was tested (she refused the dog the first time of trying which is why we tested next time).

She was mated on day 16 for her first litter (almost out of time) and had 4 live and one stillborn pup.

Second time of trying she refused the dog.

This time she was mated day 15 and 16 and had a litter of 7.

Thanks for your reply's Brainless i hope you don't think i am trying to be argumentative. I think i must have got a little mixed up when i wrote that last post i think the 2nd colour was to take back the next day and the 3rd was mate within 24-48 hours that would be right then wouldn't it? my other bitch was mated on day 9 and this one was mated on day 11. The time before when we mated her this bitch had 2 matings, but only one this time and with a different dog.

Hi no problem.  don't know about yoru breed but that would be very early for my breed to even stand.

As chocaholic says the best results are for teh bitch to be mated for as long as she will stand.  Staying with the dog being mated every other day shudl catch her at the right time for her, as all measurements etc are for teh averages which can of course be different for some.

Also I think stress and travel can throw things off, and a peaceful holiday with the male may settle a bitch more.

Sorry to hear your btich has missed :-( it's really dissappointing. My bitch missed last time after 5 premate tests!! This time took her to the dog and mated her until she wouldn't stand anymore. Result she is in whelp.
Is there anyway your bitch could stay with the stud owner next time if she is a long distance from you??? I wouldn't give up, third time lucky and all that. I know someone who mated a bitch to the same dog 3 times, she missed the first 2 times and took on the third.

I have watched her when she 1st comes into season and she is a little flirt tail flagged to one side from day 1 so she would have to stay with the stud dog owner for the full season lol and i don't think she would like that she's ok with people that she knows but totally different with strangers. Also she's a very picky eater and i would worry all the time she was away. Yes it would be nice to have a puppy from her but its not the be all and end all. If its not to be, so be it.

My bitch was initially mated on days 10 &12 but I felt a couple of days later she was even more sexy so she went back and we actually got better matings on days 15 & 17 and according to the scan she has taken from one of the later matings. I'm not sure about your breed but I have heard people saying that bitches seem to be getting later?? It's not the usual 2 matings on days 10 or 12.  It's also very difficult to tell if the colour doesn't tail off, my bitch bleeds all the way through wether mated or not, none of this "straw colour" that I keep reading about, I wouldn't know what it looks like as I've never seen it (LOL).
I know you are probably disheartened at the moment but usually the stud owner will offer you another stud at the next season. It might also be worth getting the CHV if you didn't this time.
Good luck with what ever you decide :-))

The colour throughout or very litle colour in some of mine means I have also never relied on thsi oft quited methoid of determining correct time.  In my breed most usual day for a successful fruitful mating nowadats seems day 15, yet it used to be day 12.

I have had most success when the bitch has stayed with the dog for a week or so.  They first go up earlier than I would expect them to be ready, and I rely on tyhe dog to know when is the optimum tiome. 

It seems the males who don't feel the need to rush about mating a bitch become the most reliable idicators of when the bitch is truly ready, and and reluctance to proceed early should be taken heed of and keep mating until he looses interest.

This has certainly been the case wit the last 3 matings I supervised with two different studs, and 3 bitches. 

With both I could tell by their reaction if they are just showing polite (preliminary taking possession so to speak) interest, or when the bitch is spot on and when she has gone over.