Hi we are new to this site and enjoying looking round it.  We do however have a question: How can you find information on breeders of dogs, whether they are reputable or not and things to look for when visiting their premises to look at puppies.

Hope someone can help us with this as we want to avoid going to a puppy farm.

what breed are you interested in?

The breed we are looking at is Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

If you ring the kennel club and tell them what breed it is they will send you info alternativly go to their website and bring up puppy sales and it will give you a list of breeders and what area they are
                           Good luck

Gone into the Kennel Club site and looked for breeder that we have been to see but no information there on them.  They do state though that the puppies are KC registered so presumably when they are registered they will go on the list.

People pay to go on the kennel club list.  All that is required of them is that they do not breed more than a certain number of litters a year so it is not a recommendation as such.  There are many good breeders who list there but there will also be others........
You could use the KC to see who has what available but I would then check with the Breed Club that they are members (a completely different thing to just registering a litter)  Most breed clubs have a code of ethics including recommended health screening checks which a member must abide by so at least they live under threat of expulsion if they do not comply with it which give you a bit of a safeguard. 
If you go directly to the Breed Club they will be able to tell you, in additions, about breeders that haven't used the KC list, in many breeds there will not be immediately available puppies anyway so it will be a Breeder you will be looking for to get on the vetted list rather than an actual litter.
Beyond that you still need to satisfy yourself that the quality of the adult stock is what you desire and that the puppies are reared in healthy, stimulating and hygienic conditions that involve a fair bit of human interaction coming into the home for at least part of the day.

We have been and seen the puppies in the home, they are adorable and my husband myself and the children picked a little girl and have put a deposit on her.  I am quite a timid person and not sure how to ask that the puppy will come with kc papers and so forth.  We saw the mother with the babies and she seems a really good mum.  We did not however see the father and it was not until we left that I even thought about the dad.  Wrong on my part I know.  If you have any good tips on things I should be asking now I would be very appreciative.

Consider this, your children will very soon grow to love the puppy how upset will they be if it does not grow in the lovely healthy long lived specimen that you hope for.  You must take the bull by the horns and ask about registration and that all the relevent health tests have been passed successfully by the parents, these will be printed on their registration documents so don't just take their word for it ask to see them.  I cannot stress it enough, it is not just a nicety!
It would not be particularly normal to see the father there as good breeders will often travel many miles to find the best match to produce the best quality puppies.  Sometimes a dog on hand can be a case of just convenience rather than quality.  The stud dog should be available however if you wanted to go and visit.  Often the breeder will have photographs and of course there should be a copy of his health test results available.

To be perfectly frank I would have serious reservations about a litter if the sire was there as well. You may think that odd, but it would imply that he was used merely because he was cheap and convenient, rather than being the most apprpriate mate for the bitch. Most reputable breeders travel very many miles (generally 100 minimum) to use the dog who most suits their bitch.

As for asking about papers - this is where you have to bite the bullet and simply ask! A reputable breeder will applaud your good sense - only a dodgy character will haver and bluster about it. Only Kennel Club registration has any value - there are other registries but they are meaningless - of no more relevance than anything I could print out for you with whatever fictional details you gave me (or you could do it yourself and save a fiver).

There are several tests for genetic conditions that Cavaliers need to have passed to safely be bred from - I'm sure someone else with more knowledge than I can tell you about them.

Good luck!
:)

Today i read Jeangenie reply to breeders message I find in wrong to say that they think if the sire is there as well then the breeder is useing the male because it is cheap and convenient Well from my point of view a reputable breeder will mate there bitch to which ever male suits her to hopefully get the very best they can in type temprement and  health We have stud dogs Sometimes they are used others not
It depends what we hope to get in the future and what our line needs we have used our own males and got champions from it Puppies that are very healthy excellent temprements which go to lovely family homes
We in turn have also used males that live with other breeders both in uk france germany and luxembourg
As for asking a breeder about KCpapers pedigree you must ask every thing as you hope to have the puppy for many years We as a breeder want to know every thing about you and how you plan to look after the puppy as we want the very best for it so dont worry most breeders have been asked everything I hope you get a lovely family pet and have a long and happy life togeather

Of course it is the case sometimes that the breeders own dog is the best choice particularly if either the stud or bitch has been bought in specifically with that in mind and has grown on to fulfill expectations however I am sure you will agree very often this is not the case, time and again we see puppy producers of questionable ethics using there own dog a glance at the BRS will bear this out I'm sure.  Therefore I think it very reasonable for JG to point out her reservations which I would read as simply proceed with caution and question the breeder as to how they arrived at this particular paring.

Not always true about the stud dog. I have 2 breeding bitches and went to alot of trouble to find a male stud that had all the characteristics I wanted in my pups.I now have a stud whose temperament is known fully and not a stud  who I only know about via his pedegree. You don't fully know studs from other sources.

Nobody ever said it's always the case that the stud dog at the home means poor breeding - though it does in, at a guess, 80% of instances. As I said in my post, it's something to have serious reservations about.

>not a stud  who I only know about via his pedegree.

Of course not - part of the research to find a suitable stud involves meeting the stud and hopefully some of his previous offspring.

Diane, you're extremely lucky in that your stud dog suits both your bitches - that must be very unusual (unless they're identical twins ;) )! And of course, you wouldn't use him more than twice (maximum) with each bitch, and he couldn't be used on his daughters for the next generation ... so what do you do then?
:)

Stud dogs come and go.  Old dogs are no longer available and young dogs appear.  When planning a litter, I assess ALL dogs available to me.  For a stud fee and a tankfull of petrol I can use the most suitable dog at any given time.  If the best dog for the bitch is 400 miles away, then that's where I go.  I have rarely used a dog less than 2 hours away.  I would know about the temperament and health behind any stud dog that I used because I would have known his ancestors and possibly his progeny from the showring.

Of course some of the larger kennels keep stud dogs to mate back to their bitches a couple of generations down the line, but as a general rule I would advise a prospective puppy purchaser to ask why a breeder's own dog has been used, and expect to be given a good reason why their own dog has been used, eg I've been planning to bring these two lines together for years now etc.  Anyone continually mating the same dog to the same bitch is doing nothing to improve the gene pool of any breed.

Both my girls are very similar.After my stud has done his duties....., he will be neutered and be a loveable pet.

You do know that it's not uncommon for castrated dogs to mate and tie with bitches, especially if they've been used at stud prior to the surgery? He may not be as loveable as you hope. ;) But at least you'll know no puppies will result - after about a year post castration, anyway!
:)

yes I am aware of this fact,thanks.

for everyones information, i happen to know that diane is the nicest breeder I have ever met. It took me and my partner a year and a half to find a breeder with dogs that we liked and felt happy with. her stud dog is PERFECT and i would have happily taken him away when I bought my puppy from her!!...Diane gave us all the advice and help we needed and as a result we have a beautiful, happy, good tempered pup....so thats that.

I am assuming that you are a Judge of the breed or Field Trial judge to assess the stud as perfect.  A rare creature indeed, because as far as I was aware there has yet to be a perfect example of any breed, that is why when one chooses breeding partners it is to get as near perfect a match to improve on minor faults and stablise main virtues.

As others have pointed out in this thread this is not the normal or best way to breed, as one limits onces choices if ponly using ones own dog.  of course if one chooses to won a dog and he happens to complement on of ones bitches then you can breed a litter of maybe two from him, but after that he will be of no use to the home kennel and needs to be really something to attract other bitch owners to want to use him :D

I am glad you have got a good puppy from hip scored and eye tested parents, and hope he does indeed grow up to be a good dog.

that was quite a rude reply. not all pet owners buy to show or breed from. My puppy was bought as a family pet and to be honest her hip score is not on the top of my list of expectations. Her stud is perfect, to us. Why does a dog have to have exact hip score to be countafied as 'perfect'....? i know see why judging from the replys regarding dianes post it was so hard to find a breeder who was not pretencious, rude and judgemental.

A mongrel from the dogs home will also make a perfectly good pet.  when breeding pedigree dogs we should be aiming to prodcue the best possible. 

As has been said there is no perfect dog, but the breeder should be striving for this in each and every litter bred, that is the whole point of breeding. 

You opted for a pedigree pet in order that you would have as good an idea as possible about how it is likely to turn out in looks and temeprament as well as wanting a healthy example if at all humanly possible, so that is what you are entitled to have.

I know nothing of your breeder and they may well be striving for these things, if they are then you have bought wisely, if not then you have been shortchanged and so has the breed.

It is no coincidence that the popular over exploited breeds where many are bred purely for the pet market and sold to buyers who do not realise they are being shortchanged have a high proportion of dogs which are not typical of their breed and often have ehalth and temperament issues.

the health of your pups parents should be of importance to you.  the point of hip scoring is to reduce the likelihood of pups being produced who have Hip Dysplasia.  This condition can cause a lot of suffering to you and your pet, a reduced quality of life and shortened life expectancy.

The same with eye conditions, not very nice if your dog goes blind at a young age, most of which could have been prevented.

Now nothing in nature is certain, excellent scoring parents can prodcue dysplastic offspring, true these are rare rather than a near certainty with poor parental scores.

My oldest bitch is 13 1/2.  In that time my ne4ighcours son has had and lost due to poor health 4 GSDs, because they were only for pets so health tests didn't matter.  The fact that the last ones mother had had too many litters so they couldn't be registered didn't matter to him either as it was cheaper than a KC reg pup.  They have spent a fortune on 3 dysplastics and one epileptic and their first had a foul temperametn to boot, but she was perfect coming from a farm where the dogs were lovely.

Of course some people choose to do that, that is why I say the breeder should be asked about the choice.  Personally I think, if people take the trouble, it is just as possible to assess the temperament of a stud, and even his offspring, if he is an older dog, as it is to assess that of a dog you are buying in, in fact much more so if you are buying it in as a puppy.  If he does not live up to expectations or the litter produced from the mating with your own bitches are a disappointment where do you go from there.  Buy in another one?  Where do you go for the next generation of bitches, buy in yet another one?

Hi
It's VERY important that you ask about the health testing of the parents, as Cavaliers sadly are a breed with a lot of health problems and a lot of unscrupulous breeders. The parents AND grandparents should have been heart checked annually, the parents should be at least 2 ½ years old before bred from and the grandparents should at that point in time be at least 5 years old and still clear of heart murmurs. The breed suffers from Mitral Valve Disease and unfortunately you can almost guarantee that any Cavalier WILL develop a heart problem at some point in life, so the thing to do is make sure you buy from parents that develop it as late as possible in life -hence the importance of knowing the grandparents' status.

Then there is Syringohydromyelia which essentially is a neuerological problem, the parents need to have been MRI scanned for this as they can be affected by it without showing a lot of symptoms. The parents should also have been eye tested annually.

You can get plenty of good information via the Cavalier Club, http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/

Marianne

I can echo what Marianne has written, I thought my dogs came from caring breeders(they have shown their dogs been in the breed over 20 years & even had BOB at Crufts & are both Ch Show judges)yet it has now come to light they bred some of their dogs & bitches whilst they were under a year old !!!!

Since the father of my youngest dog had to be PTS with Syringohydromyelia(they didn't own him)they have sold all but two of their dogs & left the breed, what is worrying is that my youngest dog's brother & mother were sold as breeding stock even though my dog also has Syringohydromyelia(which means his mother is a carrier as is his brother)These dogs have not been MRI scanned because in the words of his brothers new owner if he has no symptoms he doesn't have it" which is totally wrong my boy has no symptoms as yet. I must add that my dogs father;s owners/breeders have been marvellous & very supportive totally the opposite to his breeders who haven't even bothered to contact me & they know how much my dogs mean to me

I would need to see all the KC docs & test certificates(including the MRI scan certificate)before I buy another Cavalier. I now tell people who contact me about Cavaliers to ask the breeder about SHM & if they say they do not know what it is or their dogs do not have it & it isn't in their breeding then I would walk away as ALL living Cavaliers have at least one line to a carrier or sufferer of SHM

A good place to start is to contact the breed clubs (details on each breed standard on the Kennel Club website) and ask for details of breeders who abide by the club's Code of Ethics.

Contact the relevant breed clubs.  People who seriously care about their breed will belong to at least one. 

The breed club secretaries will also know of many of the bad ones that you shuld steer clear of.

They will normally have a code of ethics which will state the maximum number of litters a bitch can have, intervals and how old for first litter and what health tests are advised, and the age pups should be homed etc.

Most breed clubs will have a puppy or breeder list.

I have a stud dog which I used to mate with my bitch.  I went into his pedigree before buying him and also the surroundings in which he was bred.  He turned out to have a lovely temperament.  My bitch is from an excellent background.  They both went on to mate and produced a magnificent litter of puppies.  It takes a lot of patience to keep a dog and bitch in the same home and through all my hard work I am very proud to have produced such wonderful puppies.

I agree with what some others have said about stud dogs, a good breeder will endeavour to find a top quality dog or dogs to use at stud for exactly the reason that they DONT want to trawl the country mating bitches to other peoples stud dogs :-)
If you have to travel a long distance to mate a bitch over a period of several days it can be a real inconvenience, its much better to travel the country looking for a decent male to keep at home for your own use, and thats why a lot of breeders do that.

But how many people are going to be willing to sell you their adult dog? Because you can't tell with a small puppy whether he's going to grow up a suitable match for your bitch ... you're more than likely going to be lumbered with an unsuitable dog (fine on paper, no good in reality, especially if his health checks turn out poorly), and use him because he's cheap and convenient ...

I had my stud dog from 7 weeks old.  I knew he was going to be a good dog to breed with.  I know that there is a chance that things can go wrong, but with my breed (whippet) there are few faults.  I would only recommend that you have a stud dog at home if you have a lot of patience and the time to attend to them.  It's very hard work. 

All dogs have faults, what if he had grown up with an undescended testicle?  All dogs are better or worse examples of a breed too what if your feelings for him clouded your judgement, did he achieve good placings at shows demonstrating that others thought him worthy of contributing to the breed?  I think you have been very lucky if that is the case, what would you have done if he had not turned out so well?

Hi,
Not all the best dogs are in shows!!! In my opinion there are a lot of dog shows
that if the face fits!!!
I was once told of a well known breeder, who decided to take the worsed
pup out of his litter, he took it to shows to prove a point, were it was placed!
Then at champ. shows, it was placed. It was said, well it must be good for that
breeder to have it in the ring!!! egh!!!
So you can not say only champ. dogs are good! There are some lovely specimens
of breeds out there that have never been in a shown ring.
Regards
Denese

>to take the worsed pup out of his litter, he took it to shows to prove a point, were it was placed!

How many were in the class, and how good were they? ;) Remember, coming 5th out of 5 is still 'being placed'! :D

If a breeder is breeding good litters then certainly the best dogs re often not in the ring, as at 8 weeks old it is an educatd guesss, and if the litter is very even you could find 4 different experienced judges of the breed choose a diferenet pup as their pick and palkce the others in differing order of merit.

The truth of this is borne out by the number of new people to showing who take their older pup or dog to shows and do well, even making them into Champions.

One of teh top dogs of the last few years is the owners first show dog, yet now he would be considered a face?

I really fail to see the point as the cost of buying and rearing a dog is a lot more inconvenience and cost than the price of two stud fees, as surely you are only likely to use him once or twice until you have what you wnated from him and the bitch.  You then have 3 dogs instead of just two, one of which is no longer useful in your breeding program, as you now have his daughter and or son.

With a bitch you can mate hewr to a different dog and then use on of her offspring down the lien to what you subsequently breed from her daughters from another sire.

Ah, but Brainless, those are the thoughts of a breeder, serious in her committment to improve/maintain the breed standard of her chosen breed - not somebody trying to produce OK pups to sell as pets. :)

Thank you for you reply.  Not everybody wants a show dog.  A good standard of dog for a pet is a good thing.  If my dog had not been suitable I would have accepted it.  I only have dogs because I love animals, not just to show to make myself look good.  I consider myself a genuine pet lover and am happy to be a breeder for the love of the animal not to justify to other people how good my dogs are in the show ring.

Dogs of the standard to be show dogs make just as good a pet, but give the owner other possibilities too.  In most littters tbred wtih the idea of producing show quality there may be less than half that would be competitive at shows, the rest will make quality pets. 

The pet only quality dogs should be a byproduct of producing top drawer ones, not the most you can hope for in a litter.

Surely if something is worth doing it is worth doing well.  I breed for the love of it, but want to breed the best that I can, not just for myself but for others to enjoy having a top class representative of the breed even if they have no wish to show.

as I have posted in another post..I think that ultimately the responsibility falls on the breeder to make sure that the prospective buyer is well informer of any details that they should be. Of course the buyer also has a duty to their future to ask questions as well. I would think however that any reputable breeder would want to make sure that the buyers is well informed, and I am sure that it should be more a case of the breeder screening the prospective buyer rather than the other way around...

Many breeders feel that people who want 'just a pet' deserve top quality pets, and strive to produce just that. The 'pet' puppies come from the same litters that produce the Champions - or should ...

In fact, ideally the puppies raised just as pets should be capable of becoming Champions if their owners wanted to show them - breeders should aim high.
:)

But val, out of a litter of say 5 pups a breeder will be lucky to get 2 show quality ones!!!!  The other 3 may not be sutible for the ring but will make perfect pets!  Surely you don't think a breeder who breeds to better the breeds get all puppies into the ring?  Most only get the one they kept in the ring.  The rest will be loved to bits in a purely pet home!

To the OP; it is harder to mate two dogs who live together.  and once they have been together once, every season after that WILL prove to be difficult and hard work to keep them seperated.  One door not fully shut could result in an unwanted mating!

Edited to say: And how many pet people love to say "my dogs parents have both been to crufts, and so has his grandparents!"  Or "my pet's dad is a champion?"

Hi ice_queen
But val, out of a litter of say 5 pups a breeder will be lucky to get 2 show quality ones!!!!

Out of a litter of 5, I would expect one puppy to be an obvious pet - maybe a bit full in eye, maybe a plonker who is more interested in a tummy tickle than showing off - that was how I chose the pet puppy out of 3 bitches.  Bitch No3 was beautiful, but as soon as you spoke to her, she smiled and closed her eyes - a wonderful pet but would be difficult to show!!  The other 2 , 1 stayed and the other went to a show home.  The 4th pup from the litter was a dog puppy, who went to a show home but has unfortunately damaged his leg and won't be shown, but he will be in his home forever.

When I say show quality, I don't mean Champion material, but quality that I am proud to have bred and that I would expect to get placed at a Champ Show with a novice handler!

I breed so that everyone, even the 'I only want a pet' families get a puppy to be proud of!!  Breeders often say "Why don't you use ***** a dog.  You should get a nice puppy!"  But I don't want just a nice puppy for me.  I want a whole litter of nice pups, that gives me a headache to choose the best one to keep, and then share the rest with others, who also deserve a good representative of the breed.  When you know ALL the dogs behind your bitches, and the stud dogs that you are using, then it's not difficult to do:)

So Val,

What you are looking for is a nice even litter :)  :D

We have a lot in common there ;)

Yep!! ;)

Last year, after travelling 408 miles each way to the stud dog, my girl produced 7 DOG puppies!!!!!  I don't keep dogs.:(  A lady travelled down from Scotland to chose her show pup it took her 3 hours to decide which one to take, they were like peas in a pod!!  No 7 was a little smaller than the rest and went to a lovely family as a pet.  They sent the usual 'pet picture', which I sent to the breeder of the stud dog.  Her comment was "I'd like to see him in a show stance.  Can't you persuade them to show him??"  ;)

:D :D

My last litter was like this, luckily there was only one of the sex I wanted to keep, but would have had a hard time picking only one for showing, they would all do well in the ring but the others have gone to be pets :)  which is as it should be, the one I show is also my pet.  

Mmm, I agree Dill.  I only let mine go to show homes if they are going to be kept indoors and have a good life.  I'd rather that they never saw the ring than be kept in kennels and taken out once a week to a show! :(  But I need to be proud, not embarrased (like some that I've seen sold to show homes!) if the owners do decide to take then to a show.;)  Each to their own, but it wouldn't suit for one of mine.

Can't help thinking too that the fewer dogs you keep and breed from the more choosy you are about breeding and better litters you get ;)  After all if you breed with the attitude that out of say 6 litters a year you are bound to get at least one or two show quality (putting it very simply ;) ) then are you going to be as critical of the bitches and studs and pedigrees as someone only breeding one bitch in 3 or 4 years?

I too would be happy for any of mine to be in the show ring (but they won't sadly as the owners aren't really interested)  I also feel that any pup I show reflects on the breeders of the bitch and the stud dog and I owe it to them to do as well as possible.

I think that has a lot to do with it, Dill. The serious breeders tend to take more care.
:)