Hi, I don't want to come accross as a person who just wants to try & get rich by breeding Bulldogs !!! I have done a little research on them & found out that bitches sometimes need to have a C section ! I was just wondering how many times the poor thing can go through this op ?

Regards

Richard

A good breeder IMHO would only have one C section done on a bitch & then not breed from her again, but that is JIMHO

they can usually have three without problems and ive known good brood bitches to have four.
louzola

"good brood bitches to have four"

What is the definition of a good brood bitch? One that does not die under anaesthetic? Just curious :)

the definition is when they have produced champs and have done so in every litter,i know of one that has done this and i dont know of one thats died under anaesthetic.why oh why do people think bulldogs die easily,they are not that different to other dogs,we just dont walk them in the heat,also i know of lots that have self whelped big litters of 10.

In that case, why do we see all the posts justifying the £1000+ for puppies????

"why oh why do people think bulldogs die easily"

All dogs are at risk from anaesthetic. Most people would consider more than one cesare 'unecessary'. I was interested in your comment about being a good brood bitch and what (if anything) it was that made it worth the risk of one anaesthetic, and justified four. It is interesting to see how different people view these matters :)

I think if a bitch has had one C section a second litter would be justified, but if it happened again then no way.

My first homebred had two litters easily with no problems but needed a C section for her third litter.  Now had that been her first I wouldn't have got teo good naturally whelped litters.

I would certainly be questioning breeding again if it was a bitch who came from a mother who also had a C sectiuon.

One of my girls had a c-section I never bred from her again, IMO any dog that cannot self whelp naturally should not be bred from again full stop, its not right nor is it fair on the Dam.  Theres a couple of Bulldogs out there that I know of that can self whelp, its not unheard of.

To put a bitch through one c-section is bad enough, but to produce another 2-3 litters that are born via c-section to the same bitch is wrong and very cruel.

youd be lucky lokis mum to get one for 1000,they are nearer 2000!

Well any bitch that requires more than one C section in most people's opinion should not be bred from again.

4 litters from any bitch is more than enough and in fact the maximum allowed in my breed according to the breeds code of ethics, to have 4 litters by C section would be morally repugnant to me.

Surely if only self whelpers are bred for this tendency to need C sections will reduce to what is normal, th occasional life saving that it is for most breeds.

Totally my point of view & there are bulldog breeders out there who have self whelping bitches & who rarely if ever need a C section & they do well at shows too so are not untypical either

I dont think its wise to breed again from a bitch thats had a C section :-(
Its a much better idea to breed from bitches which come from self-whelping lines and from self-whelped litters. If certain lines keep producing bitches which cant give birth naturally then that is natures way of telling you something is wrong.
Please think long and hard before breeding bulldogs, it is a very time consuming and expensive hobby and is by no means a "get rich quick" scheme, in fact if you choose the wrong dogs from the wrong lines or lady luck is not with you all the way, then you could easily end up well into the red !
good luck  :-)

>>>i dont know of one thats died under anaesthetic.<<<<<

but the risk is there when under anaesthetic

I know two Bulldogs that have passed away under a general whilst having a c-section and both litters died.

Straying slightly off topic here,but when i see c-sections performed on tele it looks as iff the scar is right where the babes suckle,wouldnt the kneading etc. really hurt the mum,after having her stomach cut open surely the whole area would be ultra sensitive and very painful??

I saw a show not long ago where a bulldog breeder was casually toddling off to the vet with her heavily pregnant girl as they were booked in for yet another section,the breeder said they dont even bother waiting for her to come in naturally,they just book her in when she's confirmed pregnant :( And a comment that the vet made really scared me,just before he cut into the female he said she may be able to feel something as they cant put her under heavily due to the pups being affected,this has been playing on my mind ever since.Can someone please tell me that the bitches do not feel anything or are even a little lucid during the op???

I really,really love the look and personality of bulldogs and i would really like to own one,but there are so many things that can affect them,i really think my heart could not take seeing them struggle for breath or having trouble licking themselves etc. etc. Why cant the breed standard be changed to make the dog more comfortable instead of pleasing to the eye ???

The scar is in between the rows of nipples and although I suppose its uncomfortable my girl coped really well :)

You can see that the kennel club breed standard (which has been altered over the years with canine welfare in mind) does not call for such exageration that would prevent them being able to do naturtal doggy things.  It is up to breeders to breed to this standard.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/discoverdogs/utility/u954.htm

sorry to disapoint you all but thats the way it goes with bulldogs,neither i or anyone else can stop it,there are many breeds that have c sections,breeding bulldogs is an expensive hobby and hard work too but its so rewarding to watch your babies grow into beautiful strong dogs,no good anyone telling me different as they are like my children to me,i also think the guest that asked about c sections is just another wind up to start yet another argument,wonder who you are guest? if you are not thinking of getting a bulldog why ask the question?

So why respond then, I totally disagree with your views and cannot understand why you would put your babies through that.

i respond to defend my breed,wouldnt you? a lot of you dont know the ins and outs of bulldogs and just assume we are all greedy and cruel,well i can think of a lot more cruel things in this world,we are not cruel,we are not greedy and people come on here with the same questions every so many weeks,im sure they do it to stir it up,well whoever you are(and i have a good idea who) try to be happy and not bring misery to other peoples lives,would you like your breed being slane on a public forum!

Louzola, I don't think anyone was trying to stir things up or slate the breed. I think most people find it very hard to understand why anyone would want to subject any breed of dog to four cesares. Look on it as a chance to educate the forum as to why it is necessary? The original question was about cesares and how many were acceptable. Assume for a moment, that the original poster logged a genuine question but was looking to make money. Your response was to confirm that it is acceptable in bulldog circles for a good brood bitch to have four cesares. I felt it was necessary to clarify that comment.

yes i do admin,what i said was that i know of a good kennel that has done four c sections,i didnt say i would(i wouldnt) but they have a lot of experience,i myself have two at most then spaying is done,i then keep the bitch as a house pet.it is annoying when people think they can make cash from breeding as i know different,when i had my singleton it cost 500 for section,500 stud fee,feeding,jabs etc so i dont like it when people say we are greedy,i simply do it for the love of them and not financial gain,i do it for myself and im quite happy with litters of 2/3 as its less worry.

lel people are under risk too but they do it to have babies dont they!

You are quite correct- but *most* people have a choice at least (emergencies etc apart)

But not 4 Ceasarians!   More than two are definitely frowned upon by the medical profession, who will strongly advocate sterlisation if one has more than three.......the medical risks are too great.

i know of many bulldogs that have three with no problems what so ever,if thats what bulldog breeders have to do then so be it,i can think of three more breeds of dogs that have to have them too and theres never a mention of them on here, i know of people that are quewing to buy bulldog puppies from good reputable breeders so i guess they must be pretty special dogs!! i just luv em !

mmm - can see why 4 x 10 puppies @ £2000 = £80,000.   Caeserians no probs = say £2,000 - quite a profit!

Words fail me - greedy breeders or what!

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Lokis Mum, Greedy being the right words I would not dream of charging that much for a pup, let alone pay it!
For any dog of any breed.

Hi Mollmoo

My issue isn-t with the price, obviously people are paying that money at the moment and in my opinion they are worth every penny, although I obviously would like them to be cheaper (I am not a breeder).  My problem is with litter after litter being "pumped" out of them or any other breed with no regard for the bitch and to think it is "ok" for a bitch to have 4 cesarians, that is totally wrong

The thing is if there was more empahsis put on self whelping lines then a lot of this problem could be eradicated.
Archer

JMO,

Im sorry I do not think any dog of any breed is worth that amount of money (I have Cane Corsos which can also demand a high price, I also have Bullmastiffs) as I mentioned in an earlier post I did breed from one of my girls (years ago) she had a ceaser which of course I was disapointed with as she did quite well in shows.  She was never bred from again for her own wellbeing and safety.

To put a bitch through more c-sections after already have one, I think its fair to say you cant think an awful lot of your dogs.

oh but i do think an awful lot of my babies thankyou and what do you know,you dont even know me or my dogs,i certainly dont breed for the money either as i only breed when i want one for myself to show,i have had one litter in 22 months and kept two,is that being greedy? i think not as it cost a lot to get them plus other costs,i think they are worth every penny and there is a lot of jealousy out there.

Jealous? Of What? LMAO

I will stick to the breeds I already have thank you.

could we keep this thread on topic please.

Get four of mine for that, and they are likely to live to 13 plus and rarely need a vet.

for your information i have a 3 year old who hasnt seen a vet since her jabs at 10 wks old,i have a 5 year old the same,must be doing something right mustnt i.

Well I have a 10 year old who hasn't seen a vet until 9 1/2 when she had a wart I wanted removed.

I just can't see the justification in the kind of price asked for a bulldog puppy.  A C section is going to be £400 to £100o if there are horrendous complications.  It isn't going to cost any more to feed your pups than mien or a litter of Springers or Collies.  Registration fees are the same, stud fees about the same as for a pup in our breed (lot less than your breeds pups prices).

So assuming a C section is needed then that may add a £100 per puppy onto an average £500 pup price.  Now it would seem that Bulldogs are not generally Hip Scored (last one cost me £170) or eye tested, so where is the expenses that warrnt these exorbirtant prices charged by some breeders, surely this encourages all the poorly bred bulldogs around that give the breed a bad name?

I expect a litter to cost me in the region of £1600 .  My last cost me £1200 and was only 4 pups.

i cannot help that they are one of the most expensive dogs to buy brainless,even if they were 200 pounds i would still have them and i too have had to pay 2000 pounds for one i bought in!!

Would you not agree though that this high pup price encourages the breeders who are just in it for the cash? 

I notice the bulldog registrations are pretty high, but doubt that the majority are bred by known and responsible breeders with costs over and above those of the litter and the dam.

It also seems to ahve spawned a lot of crosses of bulldogs that are almost as expensive.

Maybe the breed clubs should encourage breeders to set a realistic top price for pups that would cover breeders reasonable overheads but would discourage cash croppers?  Also encourage breeders to Hip Score, heart test etc.  How else are potential owners to know the difference between reputable breeders and profiteers.

you can also get four jack russels for the price of one of yours brainless.

Not KC registered Jacks with all the health checks done you can't & for £2,000 you can get several fully work(not obedience) trained registered BCs, sorry but no dog is worth £2,000 as an eight week old puppy

Yep but they do cost less to rear and aren't KC reg so less costs there to.  Mind you you can only get 1 1/2 Jacks around here for our puppy price. :D

if only we got 10 puppies everytime,ive had a singleton which i kept,so no profit there at all,she is now 4 and only had one litter at aged two,true bulldog lovers do not breed for money,its the darned pet breeders that do a good job of that and prob get liiters of ten!! a lot of us put restrictions on our bitches to stop the pet market being flooded.

I will ask my question here, seeing as I thought it was an information site....I have no idea why my post has been removed??? I asked a simple question and it got locked and my post removed from here... I could understand if I was rude Admin!

Louzola, Please could you help expleain why breeds such as Bulldogs are bred even though they have problems such as breathing difficulties and have to have C-sections.. Please I am NOT lecturing, this is not my place I am simply just curious! Thank you for your time :)

they are bred for the same reasons other dogs are bred zoe,to bulldog lovers there is no other breed like them,its as simple as that , and who said they cant breath? you should see mine,they are very fit and love walks,i use good healthy studs with health certificates and havnt had any problems with breathing or collapsing,i really dont see them being different to other dogs and they are bred to show too which is a joy.hope this helps.

Ok thank you for that, sorry about the breathing, I thought they couldnt breath as easily as other breed, couldnt walk as far etc and when you said about not being able to take them out in the heat I stupidly assumed. I stand corrected. cheers :)

Couple of questions Louzola

Were your pups born by ceaser or self whelped?  Were your bitches health tested? As theres no mention of that only the health tests on the stud dogs you have used.  I know most dont health test but I belive ANY brood bitch or stud dog of any breed should be health tested.  Even if health tests for the breed are rare or unheard of, its what responsible people do.

The reason BD breeders charge 2K a pup is because folk pay it - its a buyers market. Its like everything else designer dog-wise - some folk pay for the kudos of owning one and bragging they paid £2K for it.

well i for one dont need to brag,have you not thought that people just love the character of the breed,they are very comicle and bring me so much joy,they are quite clever dogs,if you had one youd know what i mean,there is nothing wrong witrh them and they make lovely companions too.