OK so it's hot, sticky and no one's feeling their best lately but there seem to be a lot of very argumentative posts recently that just want to put down advice that's been given in good faith by long term members and regular contributors who are speaking from experience.  Small wonder that some of them rarely post anymore which is a loss to all whether someone that scans topics regularly or a random visitor looking for a specific topic.

There seem to be some people hell bent for whatever reason on decrying good advice and yet they don't usually have anything to replace it with.  We don't all have to agree and we don't all have to get on but what's the point of someone asking a question if they've already made up their mind on what sort of answers they'd like or exactly how it should be worded?

And what of those who join admitting to knowing nothing about the most fundamental pet care and training (absolutely no disrespect to them for that) but within a couple of weeks are advising on everything from behavioural modification ideas to whelping litters   Sometimes it beggars belief.

Still feeling hot and sticky but less frustrated  -  Teri

>> And what of those who join admitting to knowing nothing about the most fundamental pet care and training (absolutely no disrespect to them for that) but within a couple of weeks are advising on everything from behavioural modification ideas to whelping litters   Sometimes it beggars belief.

I can see your point here. I have been here for nearly 2 1/2 years now and I can count on one hand the people's who advice I really trust (it used to be a couple more but they have now left). I guess the OP's have to differentiate between those who have experience and knowledge and those who do not, but it is sometimes hard to tell the difference unless you have seen a large number of their posts.

This is the problem with the internet. Although there is lots of information readily available, I think sometimes you have to take what you read with a very large pinch of salt. Unfortunately, a lot of people are naive in that respect, absorb everything that is said to them, very often to their detriment :(

There is nothing we can do about it.

I haven't been on here as long as some, but longer than others and I too know whose advice I can trust implicitely and those to ignore. And I agree, I can count on one hand (maybe two ;) ) the people that I trust.

We have lost some very valued members on here because they have been decried for their good sound knowledge and they have stuck to their guns but have, understandably, lost patience. It's a real pity :(.......But I don't blame them.

Well I don't feel that I'm experienced enough to give out advice on dogs, so I usually keep quiet - but when it comes to other matters, ie, idle chat etc, I'm all ready!! :D :D

well i'm no expert but i only tend to try to advise on situations i've been in myself and say whats worked for me. However, if someone was to come along and say 'hold on voors, thats not quite right you shouldnt of done that you should of done this...' that would be fair enough as i'd rather know so that I didn't make the same mistake in the future.
We all learn so much from here, we just want to give a bit back and help someone in the same way we were helped, even if it is just a case of repeating things that we've read on other posts. :)

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Teri.  Unfortunately the internet is not condusive in enabling a point to get across without sounding 'off' in some way.  But in all honesty, if I was face to face, a lot of my replies would have begun with ' what on earth were you thinking of' or #'';][]'.   I have to bite my tongue a great deal and find it very difficult to find the correct words to make some of my replies palatable to say the least.  I simply try to advise on posts on which I have had experience or have researched because of that experience.  I have noticed, like Teri, many inexperienced people advising on some very serious questions, and there answers have been gobsmaking, and thats polite. Bearing in mind I have had dogs since the day I was born, nearly 50 years, and still have very little experience in most aspects. 

Many questions are asked and most of them relevant, but please, if you only want a reply that will give you the 'feel good' factor, then I am sorry, but that should not happen.  Honesty, however harsh it may seem at the time, is the only answer that should be given. It is the only way we can all learn.

And no Teri, it is not the weather. ;)

I think it completely depends on what the question is. For instance we all know that I have no experience of dog ownership, except the very little I can remember from having dogs as a child. However my sister, who I am very close to, has Cockers and so through her, reading from other posts on here and other boards, and also from what I have read up on prior to getting our puppy, I have learned a few things. Certainly by no means does this make me an expert of any kind, but if someone asked a question that I felt I may be able to help with, I would make it clear that I am not an expert and tell them what I have heard/read that may help them, and then finish by saying that others on here are a lot more educated than me, and so therefore it would be in their own best interests to wait until others posted their replies before taking my word for it.

However I do completely agree with Teri, when she says about very well experienced people (such as herself and the handfull of others on here) who have their advice thrown back in their faces. I can imagine why others have left CD because of it.

>ot of my replies would have begun with ' what on earth were you thinking of' <

  Kay and after you have picked your bottom jaw off the desk and not because you have pinched a bit of Teri's toffee cake ;-)

Hi Blue, anyone pinching my toffee cheese cake would be picking up more than their chin :D :D :D

Hi,
It doesn;t mean that some good advisers have left. They may still
read the post but! just don't comment. There are still some very
valuable members on hear. Although I am fairly new on hear.I have
found that when it matters and advice is needed it is there!
Unless there Computer is playing up which they do!!
I bet more than you realise read the post.
We all have off days. The heat has been dreadfull for
everybodies temper span a!! Some people get rid of there
frustration on hear, if it makes them happy, good luck to them.
Regards
Denese

Oh I am sure there are a lot of people who have years and years of experience read through these post's but don't reply, it is such a shame they feel they can't There is room for many many more people on CD :D

Hi Teri - did you see my pst asking for your advice about choosing a puppy?  Post is called Teri - can you help?
Nx

HI there

I have been a CD "watcher" for a couple of years now and only recently joined the forum.  I do not in any way consider myself to be an expert and I would never dream of giving an answer/advice to a question I knew nothing about.  However, the one thing I have found in my years of owning dogs is that everybody thinks that their way is right!  I think it must be the same about rearing children!!  All I can say is that you just have to give the advice you believe in and have gained from experience.  I would add though that just because you are new to the forum it doesn't mean you don't have a lot to offer by way of experience and, often, it is new blood that will keep it fresh. 

And what of those who join admitting to knowing nothing about the most fundamental pet care and training (absolutely no disrespect to them for that) but within a couple of weeks are advising on everything from behavioural modification ideas to whelping litters

Well, lets just hope that members realise the lack of experience behind the advice.

Annie

Dogdeli1,

If your post was in anyway related to mine, and just to clear it up for everyone reading it, I should have said in my first post that I wouldn't give advice (or my two pennies worth!) to anyone if I had no idea what I was talking about. As you say everyone has their own idea of what is right, and what is wrong, but someone in my position, who has only the 'text book' knowledge rather than practical experience, doesn't really know what would work or not - however if I can go and read a book and what I have read COULD help someone else out, then I will tell them what I have read! After all, if CD wasn't here (God forbid!!) the same person who is asking the question would have to go and pick up a book themselves and try what the book says, if that makes sense?

I think in a way, it is better for the person who is seeking advice to have many different answers to his/her question, s/he can then decide what way would most suit them and their dog/s, and if it doesn't work s/he then has the knowledge to try it from a different aproach.

Hi Natalie1212

No, I wasn't referring to your post - honestly.  I was just answering the OP and agreeing with what she was saying.  If it looked like I was answering your post - sorry - that wasn't the intention.

Annie

It's Ok Annie, I just wanted to make it clearer, incase you thought I was sprouting off any old rubbish to make me look like I know what I'm talking about!! :D

It's very difficult to give advice over the internet because the person who posts will give their version of events and you normally find there is a lot more to it.

I never have time to read most of the threads on here and some that I do, someone usually has already given advice which I would agree with but there's no point in me posting because it's already been said.  At other times, there are posts that I have had less experience with which I think are best left to those who are more experienced.  And I can read and learn something.  However, there are some posts which I suspect may be a wind up so I leave those well alone.

What I find hard to understand are people who jump to conclusions and post in a derogatory manner without knowing the full facts.  If there is something that is confusing to someone or if more information is required to make an informed opinion, why not ask.

We don't have the benefit of body language or the tone of voice to understand meaning on the internet and on occasions posts can be misinterpreted. 

People have lots of different experiences, lots of different ways of looking at a scenario, and they vary in their opinions and beliefs, there is nothing wrong with that. 

I haven't been on here long but this is one of the better forums.  There are others that I think people would rather bate each other and put each other down rather than discuss their issues sensibly and maturely.  At the end of the day, if we want people to post for help with their dogs and they only get critical advice or they see others getting critical advice then they will stop posting and it's the poor dogs that will suffer.  

Sometimes 'a little' knowledge is dangerous. In all honesty is it not better to stay quiet, than possibly give misleading or conflicting advice?  Letting the people with experience in certain matters to carry the OP through to end. 

How many posting have you seen with 10 people coming in and saying 'Oh I read a book that says this or that' all 10 answers different.  Not only does this confuse the OP who has the misfortune to use all 10 'remedies', but also confuses the dog in which the question has 1st arisen, possibly making matter worse.

When I say experience, I do not mean, oh that happened to a neighbour/friend/Aunt once.  I mean real experience, personal experience over many many years. 

There are many posts on training gun/toilet/barking etc. very rarely do I reply to these although I have had 50 years of experience of them all.  I have had great success with all my dogs, but I will not come in with a reply to an OP who has already had a reply from another experience person.  However, then along come another 10 replies from people who have just got there 1st dog EVER and proceed to give advice. WHY?????

>I think in a way, it is better for the person who is seeking advice to have many different answers to his/her question, s/he can then decide what way would most suit them and their dog/s, and if it doesn't work s/he then has the knowledge to try it from a different aproach.

This could work if one simple peice of advice was given and utilized over a period of time and then IF that failed then another could be implemented.  But how do we know that if the 1st part of information in not confused with another part at different training processess on the same day??  Where does this leave the poor dog, and the OP for that matter.  This sort of 'advice' can make matters worse,  bearing in mind the op is more than likely a novice with very little experience, and also may assume that every answer is gospel.

Hi Kayc,

This is the other side of the coin :D Yes, I think you are correct in saying that bit's and pieces of advice given by different people, could then make the matter worse, however I would have thought that on an internet forum, where anyone and his wife can post their opinion/advise, that it would become obvious to anyone, that the people who post differeing advice, can't all be 'right' and they have to decide as to whose advice they will try.

To be honest I can't remember giving anyone advice as to what they should do, the only time I would have become involved really is to tell them what I would do if I was in their situation, but even then I can't remember doing that (about dog related issues), if I have done, I am sure it would only be very simple advice. I certainly have never answered anything about working/showing as I wouldn't even know where to start with that side of things. :)

Also I wasn't saying for one minute that because my sister has dog's, this makes me experienced, but I can draw from her experience, just the same as someone may draw from yours, and everybody elses experiences on CD. I am the first one to admit that I have very little or no experience of owning a dog, and certainly no experience of training a dog, however I know how I will be going about training a dog to have good manners, and everything else, and I don't see the problem with telling someone else how I am expecting to go about it, as long as I make it clear to them that I will be doing it for the first time. :D

Hi Natalie, wasn't picking at you :)  I simply lifted your paragraph since it was easier than re-typing.  ;)

But I still stand by what I have said.  There are many people who will be able to distinguish the 'wheat from the chaff' so to speak, but on on the other hand, there are a few who are unable to do this, we dont know. In an ideal world we would all know the answers, but until this happens is it not better to assume complete ignorance and start from scratch.  Every angle has to been taken into consideration, but only one possible 'remedy' at a time should be implemented.  The ONLY way in training is consitency, whatever the problem may be. Why barrage the OP with all the possibilities until each one in turn is tried and failed,

There are also the possibilities that the OP has very different circumstances than me, so although I have great success with similar problems, I do not have the relevant answers that the OP may need, therefore I cannot and do not comment on what she might be able to do, when someone else in her situation HAS had experience. 

Thats Ok, I didn't think you picking at me :) I just wanted to explain what I meant, in answer to your comments :D

I think if I ever did put any opinion on something that really wanted advice, I would do what I said, about making it clear that I am by no means an expert, and point out that there are people who can give advice. But someone in my postion tends to spend the whole time asking the questions, not answering them! ;)

Hi Natalie

I can appreciate where you're coming from on this and I know that you in particular are ongoing in your quest to gather and further your knowledge before you're puppy's even been conceived - which I'm sure is quite rare and certainly commendable :)  The only trouble with "text book" knowledge (and I'm generalising here - not being personal) is like everything else it depends on the quality of the text books and when they were written.  I have several books on different aspects of dog ownership (training, showing, breeding, general care etc as well as breed specific books) of which some are invaluable but others, even although written by some highly respected authors in their day should really be consigned to the bin on my next clear out :D  Ideas of what is best practice, even those of the same authors, change over time - which can sometimes mean quite drastically conflicting advice still being readily available, particularly easy to find in libraries or on-line at what seems bargain prices :(

Therein can lie a problem, for eg. (slightly exaggerated analogy but it's a silly hour as usual :rolleyes: ) I'm sure everyone accepts that no-one can learn to drive a car simply by learning the Highway Code and reading the operators manual for the model they buy but further still they won't come close to passing their test if, even with many lessons, they've been swotting up on an out-dated Highway Code and have the manual for a left hand drive automatic while using a right hand drive with a gearstick :D

I definitely agree with Kayc that sometimes too much conflicting advice is made available and this only serves to further confuse the novice owner and consequently confuse the poor dog - which could potentially result in what was initially a minor and very common issue with a first time dog owner and young puppy developing into a long term problem.

Regards, Teri :)
ps. hope you hear what you want to hear at Blackpool! ;)          

I do see what you are both saying, and of course the last thing any one on CD wants to do is confuse a person and/or their dog.

Also I realise that doing all of the reading I have done isn't going to give me the same knowledge as what others who have had dogs for years has, but it will set me on the right track, and that isn't to say that once we have had our dog for 6 months that I will then think I know it all, but I think someone who knows the theory behind different situations has a much better chance of achieving more than someone who doesn't, if I can then pass some of the theory on to someone who doesn't know, surely that will do them good? Having said that, if the OP has a question that is more in depth than asking how they can change food, or what is the best way to stop a puppy biting, or if there are exceptional circumstances to these questions, then I would leave well alone and wait for the answers from more experienced people so that I can learn the answers as well. :D I don't know how I have found room in my head for all of the info!!!

P.S. Teri - I hope I get the news I have been waiting for at Blackpool as well!! :D

Hi Annie,

>However, the one thing I have found in my years of owning dogs is that everybody thinks that their way is right!<

It's easy to see why that impression could come across simply because anyone using a specific method to achieve something which works time and again will naturally believe it is virtually fool proof - but that's to an extent down to interpretation ;)  If I read something on here which differs to how I do things but sounds quicker and easier than my usual route I'm happy to give it a go as I'm sure most are.

>I would add though that just because you are new to the forum it doesn't mean you don't have a lot to offer by way of experience and, often, it is new blood that will keep it fresh.<

Absolutely agree - a perfect example being the mature gentleman who joined a couple of days ago but has a lifetime experience in dogs, specifically in a breed which often has many questions asked about it and there are not that many owners of them on here.  Length or timing of joining the forum has no bearing on a someone's abilities, experience or right to comment and proffer opinions or advice and I don't believe anyone has suggested otherwise :) 

At times the forum goes through phases where there are several controversial posts and often that's where this problem is most highlighted.  A number of very experienced people (who would object to being called "experts" BTW as they are open to continuous learning, regardless of their length and depth of involvement in dogs) either no longer post at all on here or are very selective about doing so.  On a personal level I find that to be a shame because often their knowledge has been built up over many more years and varied circumstances than others and so it reduces the opportunity for us all to expand our skills.

>Well, lets just hope that members realise the lack of experience behind the advice<

Hopefully, yes, but what of the new members or those who drop in only occasionally about a specific problem area for advice?  Moreover, many visitors use the "search" facility on particular subjects and in view of the fact that some of the advice is in reality so off base but written plausibly enough that is potentially a problem.  Unfortunately not one that any of us really have a solution to :(

I always think it's a shame that some newer members say they are afraid to post etc but an even greater one when a more established and well respected member feels they are wasting their time offering advice or worse still having to continually defend the advice they've taken the trouble of putting forward.

Regards, Teri :)  

Hi Teri

Agree totally.  As I said I've been a "watcher" for a couple of years and felt a bit intimated about posting but I overcame my fears because I really do believe that I have a lot to offer and I hope that my advice will be seen as helpful in the future.  It is a shame when people with genuine experience are afraid to post.  I hope that never happens to me.

I read the post the other night from the older gentleman and really liked the joke about the bulldog being able to pick its nose with its own teeth!!!!!  

Kind regards

Annie

ide have to agree with you teri there are to many people who think they know it all,i would like to think i am not 1 of them! :) the 2 main people ive found give good advice and i feel i can trust are brainless and teri! there are a few other members who give good advice but for me those are the 2 that stick out! :)

so does this mean that there should only ever be 1 reply to a post? Or if we see a post that already has a reply but we think we have something to add we dont as its already been answered? And as i've only had dogs for the last 2 years I have nothing to offer as I dont have the experience necessary?? Or am i just being over sensitive and misinterpreting the thread? If i am just tell me to stfu n get over it LOL :D

>so does this mean that there should only ever be 1 reply to a post? Or if we see a post that already has a reply but we think we have something to add we dont as its already been answered?

Hi Voors, no it certainly does not mean that.  An instance from a couple of days ago, I posted a reply and Val came in and added a very vital peice of info which I had missed.  The difference is, that it was an addition to the info already made, not a conflicting peice of advice. :)

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for your support but in honesty I'm genuinely not in the same league when it comes to experience as Brainless, Val, Blue, JeanGenie, Kayc, Loki's Mum, Tohme, to name but a few that immediately spring to mind - not being humble here either (would go against the grain :P ) just realistic.   There are also several others that could buy and sell me when it comes to intricate advice on complex issues and of course there are those who simply shine in breed specific advice - which when that's the OP's breed is worth it's weight in gold ;)

I try and only become involved if I know through personal experience how to get good results with a few given problems and other than that just try and be supportive and sympathetic to visitors until someone more adept than myself comes along if the forum is quiet - comes with the insomnia!   Now if someone could only solve that for me I'd be eternally grateful  :rolleyes:

regards, Teri :)

Ah I think people are strong in different aspects of dog ownership.  F

or example I manage my dogs more than I train them. 

They get the basic training, but I have to admit to being one of those lazy people who watch clever trainers with awe, but haven't the commitment or inclination to go beyond basic control.

On the other hand I think I am reasonably good at reading and studying the relationships between dogs, and I enjoy socialising with them and other dog owners, so tehyy ahve no option but tolearn to be reasonabaly well mannered and sociable.

I am very interested in the breed I am in, and passionate about being one of it's custodians.  That apart I just love my individual dogs.

We all ahve expereinces that can help others.  My trainer that has been in obedeince a logn time finds I am useful as I ahven't forgotten the pet ownrs perspective.  She finds I can usefully forstall some of the self created problems that people may have with their dogs, it is useful to remeber ones mistakes as well as learning from them, as you can see when someone is going to have a similar problem.

Hi Barbara, very good points :)

Similarly I don't have the inclination to train my own dogs beyond common good manners and the basics - recall being the only real one that I put lots of effort into apart from house training and socialisation of course.  As you know my breed isn't exactly renowned for imposing their affections on strangers so knowing that they catapult themselves onto me and the rest of the family when we enter a room doesn't necessarily mean they need trained not to jump up on strangers - it's just not in their natural make up :P

I prioritise with socialising with people and other dogs to make them tolerant of every day situations and they are happy, well adjusted family pets to us and for our personal circumstances and lifestyle - but who for some people's taste may be a TAD too spoiled :D  But then for me the only things I need to be sure of are that they are safe on and off lead around kids, joggers, cyclists, horses (as we exercise near the RDA centre) and of course other dogs.  I wouldn't want them ever to frighten never mind harm anyone or anything nor contribute towards the breed in general getting a bad reputation (which in some areas it already has :( )  I do however have the utmost admiration for anyone who can put in the effort to do more - but personally admiration doesn't translate to motivation :rolleyes:

regards, Teri :) 

Nice post Teri :-) and true.

( PS are you sure though it is't that extra portion of Sticking pudding you had ;-) :-D  oh was I not supposed to say.

Talking of people who give good advice, what has happened to John? I haven't seen him on here in  ages, has he left?

Long gone lucyandmeg due to the rudeness of those who didn't like his straightforward speaking.  His input is sorely missed but he's happy to help those who value his wisdom (my word, not his - he's much too modest!) privately.

I must admit, that when I see what I consider to be a "stupid" post, I will dash off an answer......leave it on the screen whilst I make another cup of coffee/have another glass of ribena ;) - and then, nine times out of ten, delete it! :D    I feel that I have vented my spleen without causing too much offence to the poster :)

Sometimes though, I just have to hit the "post" button ........

Margot

LOL, Margot - you must have the advantage of age :D :D I tend to dash off a reply and then post it straight away - if I'm lucky I can delete it quickly, or if I'm very lucky I can hit the 'back' button before 'post'. Some people seem so unbelievably stupid you have to read the post twice to see if it's genuine or a 'troll' :( I just can't contain myself :)

Fortunately, I'm not an expert on anything doggy (which has it's advantages at times) - I can only tell of personal experience, which may (or may not) be of interest to someone :) We are lucky to have several very knowledgeable, patient and NOT dogmatic (LOL) people here,  I always read their comments. We have had a few 'experts' on here in the past who, unfortunately, have clouded their, otherwise, considerable experience with a few 'dodgy' theories based on emotion rather than fact. There are definitely a few people who I wish would return (John especially - even tho' I don't have labs :) )

Stop rabbiting on girl and shut up now :D

Daisy

Well in that case, I am amazed that *I* have managed to stay out of trouble recently Teri :D :D The hot weather doesn't appear to have made a jot of difference as far as I have read .....the same people are being slated by people ...folks come here, ask for advice and then get ratty when they read the answers ...same old same old as far as I can see ;)

Oh and just to add.....I only EVER give advice on housetraining, general queries and Malamutes...those are the only things that I feel qualified to speak about ..

;)

AND don't forget computer - and all things Forum ;) :) :D

Margot

Heh ...yes, but they aren't doggy things :D :P

AND Derek from Big Brother... Melodysk and Derek sitting in a tree, K.I.S.S.I.N.G......  :-D

Don't think Derek would be TOO thrilled at that somehow ;)

oh - and those brilliant puzzles and other games you put on here :D :D :D

LOL ...yes but they really are NOT advice no matter how you look at them LOLOL :p :p

Look at them as life choices - far more valuable (especially with the insomnia :rolleyes: )

AAAAAGGGGHH, that's it, penny drops, etc - I've been hexed But which witch was it ............. 

/walks away slooowly ....whistling casually........

and the magic ................. ;)

Mel don't forget the answers to quiz's and er supplies and supplies of things to keep us busy ;-) Who said Crimson room...grrrrr

Strictly between you and me Mel, I didn't think it had much to do with the weather :D :P  T x

*giggles* :D :D Worry not Teri, I won't breath a word to anyone ;)