Ok, purely hypothetical question here, BUt sometime in the next few years i would like to get another Border collie or working sheepdog. Although tembperament is the most important thing to me, i would like to obtain one that has been shown to work well in obedience and agility/flyball. I'm not too fussed about showing, although if there was a BC that could work as well as do a little bit of showing as well that would be a bonus!! I'm not looking to work to champ level at any discipline, i'm only working in beginners at agility at the moment and just do obedience for fun. So what are the best lines at the moment or do you know of any breeders that breed for a bit of everything?

Depends it you want a top kennels or nice dogs that can work & show & won't charge you an arm & a leg for a puppy

Have a look here they work sheep, do obedience & show

I personally prefer dogs that are simply bred to work Beauty for BCs is in the eye of the beholder & 99% of  show kennels have nothing that I like

The best thing to do would be to go along to the shows, either obedience or agility, and have a look. Then you can see what type of dog you like, it's style and attitude towards work and chat to the owners and then decide what line you prefer. All of my collies come from working lines, the first has a very large dollop of Sealight in him, although he is a lot larger than the Sealights but he has their work attitude. The next is a Woodsorrel, very well known in both agility and obedience and he is born and bred to work. He loves it and would keep going till he dropped. The last is a rescue who looks very show line but has a very working dog attitude.

The other thing you could do is look into the ISD registered dogs. TBH I think if I was going to go for a pup I would look in that direction. That's if I can keep away from agilitynet rescue me pages which is how I ended up with the last one! ;-)

MM I totally agree!! Unfortunately not everybody has the same thoughts on BC's. I would rather have a farm bred working dog and take my chances as to whether he is interested in agility than have 100 of them bred for that purpose. :-D I have to say though that my trainer has 2 dogs from Sue Ader at Passims and they are absolutely lovely. They have plenty of drive and the temperaments are spot on. There is  also someone in the class that has 2 dogs and again temperament and working ability are there to see. I don't know how well these dogs do in the show ring but some of them are shown although not those mentioned. There is a link to the Passim's site in the breeders list on this website. :-)

The other thing of course is farm collies etc are more likely to be healthy than show bred ones as they are not as inbred. I know a couple of show lines and the dogs are all freakily nervous and highly strung and either epileptic or some sort of health problem.

<<<waves at colliemad, Indy got 1st in St. helter skelter at weekend, now avoiding st. j. at all costs!!!>>>

>>The other thing of course is farm collies etc are more likely to be healthy than show bred ones as they are not as inbred.<<

What a load of rubbish.  Statements like that make me mad. 

Firstly a 'farm collie', unless you are prepared to work it everyday are certainly not the ideal family pets.

Secondly the 'show dogs' statement.  Good breeders of show BC's and there are many, have hips tested, DNA tests for CEA and most are hearing tested.  Show me obedience and agilty lines that do that, I know there are a few, but you can count them on one hand.

The link that MM put up does obedience and show and fully tests her dogs, there are several 'show dogs' doing well in obedience and agility.

I know of no show lines that are producing epileptic dogs or any that are 'freakily nervous', I don't think they would get far in the show ring if they were.  However, there could be owners that have a dog from show lines who are breeding it without health checks to unsuitable dogs.

Please don't post those type of allegations on a public forum.

Show bred collies - I said, a couple I KNOW!!! That wasn't a sweeping generislation, it's fact. And they are doing quite well in the show ring, they look great they just are loopy temperament wise.

Farm bred collies - we are not talking about pets, we do work them as we are talking about agility and obedience homes, I know full well they rarely make good family pets.

I stand by what I said.  You made a sweeping statement that show bred collies are not as healthy as farm bred.  How many farmers do you know that pay out for all the health tests?

Breeders of show bred collies spend a great deal of money ensuring their breeding stock are healthy and temperament it upmost in their breeding programs.

Well I can only go by what I have seen, every breed collie I have ever met, and that's one heck of a lot around obedience and agility, either seems nervous, aggressive, highly strung or to have some sort of health problem. Having said that, most of the collies I know are from working lines so it may be more of a case of not knowing enough show bred dogs and seeing the worst of them. Apologies if I offended anyone, it was not the intention I was simply speaking as I find. :-)

Apology accepted :)  I don't think you will find many show bred collies doing agility, they are not built 'flighty' enough for most agility competitors.  There are more and more coming into obedience now.  A handler with an obedience champion has just bought a puppy from a show home, I will be interested to see how it comes on in her experienced hands.

Also, don't forget that a lot of agility handlers wind their dogs up so much to get the speed, that this alone can make them highly strung and aggressive.

Most of the people I know in agility that are breeding, are breeding for speed with little regard to anything else especially health. There are a few good breeders and the BC database on DNA cea testing will show you who they are.

Basically I would not buy from a breeder who has not health tested their breeding stock, what ever sport you wish to take part in.  There is no excuse for it, it is easy to do, just costs money.

my friend has two show collies and she has qualified them both for crufts got places this year with them both and they are cracking agility dogs.
carol

Hi Sandrah, I don't know of any people that breed for agility that don't have their dogs tested but that said I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole! IMO they don't seem to put enough thought into what they are breeding, they just take 2 advanced dogs and put them together without considering whether it is the ability of dog or the handler that has taken it to that level. I would go for a working bred dog every time and take my chances. You are right about the show dogs having too much substance but on the other side I have seen agility bred dogs that really are too light in their build. :-(  I watch a lot of dogs and without exception the most driven and enthusiastic ones are working bred. The most sensible seem to be the show bred ones and the sharpest and most highly strung IMHO are the agility bred dogs. I keep getting told that agility breeding is best and then the same people tell you that their best dog is actually farm bred but they put a lot of work in..... My dog regularly beats advanced and senior dogs yet he is only novice level, why? because he has an inexperienced handler and he is my first dog. I make silly mistakes and he gets faults. My dogs are couch potatoes, they lie around all day watching TV, the dog sitter has to wake them up to go for a walk LOL. Give  them something to do though and they are champing at the bit to get going, once they have finished.... couch potaoes. :-D I don't know the dogs that MM put the link to but I do know some of the Passims dogs and they are the only show line that I would consider because they have fantastic temperaments and lots of drive and more importantly in agility SPEED and enthusiasm :-D :-D :-D

<<waves at colliesrus, LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL told you I would laugh, it's coming sooooonn!!!!!!>>

Ahem the one who has bred my puppy has His dogs are DNA CEA tested, eye screened hip scored etc etc so no sweeping generaliziations about any BC breeders

You will note I said I personally prefer dogs bred to work not show bred ones who do nothing for me either physically or mentally, sorry if that offends you but I think I am allowed to chose dogs that suit me & I don't have to shell out upwards of £500 for a dog I don't like

BTW All my BCs have been ISDS registered & wouldn't have changed any of them for any show/obedience bred dog including the bitch that won the group at Crufts or any of the Ob Championship winners

I take your point MM, I know the breeder of your pup has and he works sheep, does obedience and has been known to dabble in showing, but you have to admit they are few and far between unfortunately.

I am not saying only go for a show bred dog, just make sure where ever you go they have health tested. 

You have a lot of experience too, a work bred dog can be a disaster in a home not used to collies, most of the rescues are full of this problem.

There are quite a few dual registered dogs in the breed ring and being bred from.

That is why I put up the link I think their dogs are nicely bred & very adaptable which is what the OP was looking for

BTW RG hasn't yet stepped into the breed ring but his Blue dog has ;)

You might now be surprised by the number of ISDS breeders who are getting into full health testing one took 5 dogs to be X rayed at my X ray vets this year & all his are DNA tested as well(they have to be eye tested of course)The X rays looked good too & he is a senior ISDS guy

I know RG didn't show him, but he was very interested in how he had done :) 

I agree with the link, they are very nice allround dogs, her current litter looks gorgeous.

I am really please to hear about the ISDS breeders, lets hope his wisdom rubs off on others. :)

LOL the blue boy is spoken for & is going to an obedience home & we are working hard on someone else to have Mister T on our e mail group LOL we know she wants him  ;)

She is also on here ;)

LOL she is indeed & has been very quiet today LOL :D

not on here to!!!!!! i want Mr t! but cant have him!!!!!! :((((((

Moss who i had of a welsh farm is really lazy, but once he is motivated with a toy or food he is a brilliant obedience dog, and i have started to introduce him to agility, he's now 10months. He's a nice dog very sharp eyes and was of the farmers best 2 working dogs, he had 7 altogether. But he isnt quite as loving as my others. Cassie was bred on a farm but in the house, one parent worked the other was a pet, shes alot more loving than Moss good at agility but slower not to looney. She also has a extream collie stare. Hazel came from a breeder whos dogs didnt really do alot, dont think she had much socialisation as a pup and it takes a hell of a lot to get her motivated and she doesnt have the strong collie eye. Eva is off a  breeder, shes the best i have had as far as socialisation goes, she can be a bit bossy though, she already has the collie stare and is a really fast learner. I will definately go back to the same breeder if i ever want another collie as shes brill.
Thats my experience with BCs and they are good for the purpose i intend them for. Take a look at a few working/obedience line breeders, or what about a rescue dog if you are willing to put the work in, but once you have put the work in the dog, you should end up with a nice dog.

some nice working show lines are laetare,jakovall & torbrair

oh & sandrahs lovely little girl!!!!

i bred my first bc litter in 2002 and they all went to agility homes as mums lines were well known to agility folk, i didnt have to advertise them, altho i did brag about them!!! they are all fantastic, and i am so pleased with how they have all turned out, im not a 'big time' breeder or anything, i only have 2 im able to breed from!  but have all of my dogs health tested etc with all the relevant bc tests, and im very picky about where my pups go. I used a stud dog i had long admired that worked in obedience and was shown a little, his lines are all english border collies with a few show champs thrown in quite a way back in his line, josie the mum, was from a working trials breeder, whose dogs do very well in all the working areas! i felt it was a good match, had homes lined up, tests done and really did put a lot of thought into it! our next litter isnt planned til the end of this year, i have 2 dogs lined up that i really think would compliment my girl, she has been tested, as have they (dna,hips etc) and proven to have produced fantastic pups, so i cant wait!

it annoys me when people generalise about breeders, as some really are good, although i have seen poor examples from both farms and so called breeders, it just shows that you really have to look into what you want and when you find a good breeder, be very prepared to join a waiting list and wait! be careful of breeders that seem to churn them out, its another of those things that annoy me as i think time cant be put in to individuals, then you end up with a nervous wreck!!!!

sorry im waffling!!
chel

Goytre also done extremely well in the show ring as well as Working Trials.

There is always Waggerland dual registered dogs, take your pick of obedience, WT and Agility champs from this kennel!

Not sure if any are shown though.

Jackovall are VERY nice thats where my looney Eva came from.

dont know of many waggerlands that are shown, not many are dual reg now either, my josie is a waggerland you see, from the old lines

THe old lines were not dual registered as they were WSDs rather than BCs ;)

The BCs are generally both ISDS and KC registered.

i think mine may be from his first just kc reg litter then? shes 10 nearly now, and is still a grumpy madam, and just as stubborn!

Bless!!  Thank you.

Are you at Warlingham and SATs this weekend Michelle?

Thanks every one thats given me food for thought. My current wsd  was farm bred, but not very well, as was a nightmare pup, who can still be nervous and snappy with other dogs, so i thought going to a show breeder would be safer, buti do want one with drive for work. I must admit though, though i do dream about getting a pup i also drool over many of the rescue ones on agilitynet!!

Well that's where Spy came from. He was Spike, his story is now on the Happy Endings page; "I Spy, Home at Last."

I love rescue dogs, they give so much back. To see a dog bought from a Pet shop in London and past from pillar to post running on the beach and doing agility is worth it, even if he is hard work at times! I will be competing with him next year so look out everyone! ;-)

Yes and out of starters FOREVER!!!! LOL LOL LOL :-D

Oh put it a sock in it you! ;-) Why do you think I entered St. h.s. and not the st. j. class?! I did Nov. ag. instead! LOL Next weekend is my problem - I am in St. j and Amanda is judging. She always does really nice flowing courses so everyone thinks I'm done for! I have already briefed Indy, he knows what he has to do! ;-) :p

I'd be terrified of leaving starters forever!!!

Ner Ner :-D I really don't know what you are so worried about! It's really not that bad, most intermediate courses flow with the occasional one being a bit silly. Just be grateful, you have been in longer than I was!! What will you do when he is Senior? Once they start tightening up on the turns it is only a matter of time, deef won out while he was still turning like a boat and had inconsistent weaves so at least Indy is actually good enough LOL LOL LOL It's OK, with the rules on closing dates it will be the winter season before you actually have to worry about it. The only thing I miss is the easy going friendly attitude of people in starters, once you are out everyone is a lot more serious which is sad really.

Wiggy Monster wants to begin his agility career in starters. He has just walked upstairs and laid at my feet with a stolen margarine tub in his mouth. See? He's not clever enough to go straight into Novice! And Indy no longer turns like a boat. :-( He suddenly seems to have decided to bounce jumps too. I swear his feet don't actually make contact with the ground. :rolleyes:

I'm doomed... :-(

Yes I think you are doomed LOL Welcome to my world....:-D :-D I woldn't worry about the little monster, he will be just fine in Novice, you will have had plenty of extra training for it by the time he comes out! Have a little faith, you can't stay in there forever!!! Just be grateful and make the most of the time you have left. :-D A margarine tub? Kelly would think of something better to steal and he has just enough sense to hide with it bless him :-D :-D :-D