I went to a companion dog show on Saturday in Surrey taking place on a village green.  It was a nice pleasant relaxed atomosphere until the pedigree junior handling when the mother of a young girl showing a petite basset griffon vendeen was unplaced (or placed 5th I believe but she refused to take the rosette and walked out of the ring).  Her mother then had a right go at the Judge saying that he daugher had won countless junior handling at open show and champonship show level.  I heard the Judge say to her that this a fun show and her daugher had already won the veteran class with her whippet (although we sitting round the ring all though the winner should have been the beautiful Irish Setter that was 10½ and moved like a train and had personality and life not the 7 years old whippet that moved like a robot - still we were not the judge).  Sorry moving away from the subjct again.  She had also won the junior handling section in the cross breed where someone kindly lent her their dog.  So the Judge said that although she understood that she was a very professional handler it was after all a fun show and everyone had to start somewhere and that she could not expect to win everything.  The mother then went on to say that if the Judge was not going to consider the whippet for Best in Show to tell her now so that she would not waste any more time and that the Judge should have told her what she was going to do before she had entered the Junior Handling so that she would not have wasted her money either.

The Judge did not give the whippet BIS or RBIS but did go over to the yound lady to give her a prize for the veteran but she turned her back on the Judge and they went home in a huff, moaning about not winning BIS.  Is it just me or are the words proper and madam too strong in this situation.  

Just as an afterthought I was at a show the week before when this same mother and daughter combination won BIS and RBIS with their PBGV's and (I am new to showing) as soon as I arrived i was told that the BIS was going to be the PBGV as they always won.  I thought about this and apart from Saturday they have indeed always gone BIS when they attend Companion Dog Shows.

We used to have a junior & mother round here like that LOL I quite enjoyed taking her down a peg or two like insisting on a loose lead in movement & free standing at the end as well as looking very critcally at the obvious show dogs & a little less so at the pet ones

OMG that is soooo sad to hear. :(  when i used to do junior handling at companion shows I was often knocked back and didn't care.  I once went in only to prove I could beat my brothers girlfriends brother has he kept joking saying although he doesn't show his better then me....guess what happend...yup he beat me (only by one place!!!) his first time in the ring and my millionth and something!!! :D  All I did was came out and said "woops I won't be challenging any more people" and I ever heard the end of it from my parents!!! :D or his!!!

I know of a junior handler who has whippits and PBGV but don't know where they live and didn't think they would be like that!!!

I'm glad they didn't get anywher ein BIS.  If they can't except some judges like to spred it around and companion shows are their for fun (nothing better then a picnic!) it's a shame because they ruined the atmosphere for all the handlers.

Saying that at an open show I got shouted at by an adult handler for placing them last and they told me what they did was correct....well if that was correct then I think maybe everyone else should have been disqualified for being so bad!

I hope you won't see all junior handling mothers in future like the one you have experianced.  most of them are very nice (with exceptions of course!!!)

I know of this particular girl, always has her photo in Dog World, she trains with Runnymead Dog training. She is a very good handler and probably should have come first but then at companion shows judges may look for a child who has just a pet dog.  I have seen her dogs come BIS and RBIS and I have also seen them beat on many occasions (we live in the same area so often go the same shows) I also saw her at Southern Counties on gundog day but she was out by the companion show doing the junior handling finals.

It is sad that her mother had a go, with showing you have to take the rough with the smooth :)

At a companion show i won junior handling with my rottie x collie there was someone with a dobermann who went moaning to her mum because a xbreed had beat her and her darling pedigree dog lol.

i think its pathetic that someone who handles at CH level should be pot hunting at fun shows & expecting to win, AND showing such a bad example of the "show scene"

that is so sad to hear and so pathrtic!!!, they are showing new people that showing is a horible place to be in when its not!. I enterd JH at companion shows and if i am ever beaten i would take it with a laugh. Pet dogs have t win sometimes thats what companian shows are for.

Fiona

I can kind of see both sides.  I think where children are involved then it should be judged fairly BUT in saying that when we have done companion shows I always warn my daughter it is just a bit of fun and not to take any of it to heart.  On the couple of shows I have been to the judges havent got a clue about handling really. If you have paid to enter then yes regardless of the show it should be judged properly. 

I think just because the mothers are a pain in the bum it shouldnt be taken out on the child and I think judges who do that are behaving equally childishly to be a good judge you have to be impartial.  Mind you if the child was being a brat then they have learnt that example from somewhere! 

I personally cant get excited about it but I have heard some very snotty exchanges between parents as to who has the best handler.  I suppose if people enter dog shows it is because they are competative but I think if I ever get that bad I hope someone will slap me!

Thats very sad....at the end of the day the judges decision is just that! If my daughter was to ever refuse a rossette or turn her back it would be the last time she walked into a ring....good manners cost nothing and yet speak volumes.
Archer

suerly handling is ALL about good manners!!!!!

I would like to think so...but unfortunately not everyone does...but then I expect good manners from my daughter in any showring...or infact anywhere at all.
Archer

Maby thats how she lost out she looked grumpy the whole time, manner cost nothing in the show ring and you should respect everyone and the judges opinion even if you dont agree you should keep it to your self.
Fiona

I wonder if there is more to the story - maybe they know the judge personally or there may be history which gave the judge cause to be unfair ? it does seem very bad manners and yes good handling is all about ring etiquitte (totally spelt wrong :rolleyes: )

Maybe we shouldnt judge too much without knowing all the facts though.

Claire (whos gone all soft for some reason :D )

Sadly, I think this type of behaviour is typical of many activities where parents/children are involved!  I've seen bad manners shown by fathers on rugby and soccer sidelines, by mothers at dancing exhibitions - and all parents at a Sports Day :(

How can children learn that you can't win everything, when parents are arguing that their child must win at all costs.

Margot

happens in horses all the time too

Although my dad was very opinionated at dogs shows ( and quite loud with it sometimes :o ) he always pushed me to do my best but never stood ringside and slated the judge or any of the other competitors thank god.  Even now, I remember my junior days and when I dont get placed and I feel that is unjust I do walk out of the ring feeling pretty p#ssed off but I try to look normal :D :D  after all there is always another show :)

is it the same in showing as its in obedience?that it is agaisnt the regs to "impugn" the judges descision?

"impugn" - does that mean argue ? (sorry having a blonde day :rolleyes: )

not 100% sure tbh,but argue/not accept etc
i think by entering underthem you are bound to accept there descision.

you are all going to find this HARD to believe but once i entered flynn in "the most handsome dog" class at a fun show & he wasnt even looked at!!!!!;)

It is who I was thinking of.  (have given her mother two best adult handlers!)

Infact reading this rememberd when I thanked a judge for not placing me.  She said as I walked out "I'm sorry but you looked to good!" and I said "thank you, infact you placed my two best friends 2nd and 3rd who had never been to a dog show in their life!!!!" Now it gave me more satifaction being thrown out and being 'told' that I can train nothing to something in 30 mins!!! :D  however the stick I got at aschool for the many years after was not quite as good! :D

Now I didn't get last remember, I got thrown out, not even a rosette!!!! LOL 

I once was standing in the ring and turned round and said to some people who were saying "oh these prober show dogs blah bla hblah" "hang on half the prober show dogs here are out for abit of fun and practise and are not out to win but have fun.  I have fun at champ shows and I have fun here.  I got second behind a pet beagle (which was extramly nice) in that class!!!!

As companion/exemption shows are where many people get their first taste of showing such people really do a lot of harm to the sport often putting people off from trying at higher levels as they assume that it will be even worse at these. 

The fact is at all levels of showing you get such sad folk. 

The rest of us enjoyu oru dogs, seeing other good dogs and meeting with like minded folk.  Ignore them!!!

Yes it must give proper shows a bad name, I know a few people who wont go to proper shows because of that type of people but have fantastic dogs and always do well at companion shows.

I was at a show yesterday and there were two people sat ringside when I was in the ring with Alfie saying how unfair it was that there were so many "professional" show dogs there (they probably changed their minds when they watched Alfies naughty perfomance) and when Fagan got RBIS I really felt like going over there and saying to them that he wasnt a show dog at all ( I would have left out the bit about him only having one ball though )

I think anywhere you have competition you have sour pusses :D :D

Michelle, I believe you should never disagree witht he judge, you always have to go with what they say.  But then it is different with breed because everyone interprets the standard differently where as I assume in obedience a fault is a fault and cant be interpreted any other way.

I think people saying its unfair that 'proffesional'show dogs go is just sour grapes.I only do companion shows with either my daughters pet shiba or youngsters who need the practice.The only time I take them all is when I have extra children with me(my daughters freinds) who want to have a go!
Archer

ohhhh! theres plenty of scope for interpretation & marking in obedience!!!!!!
the regs are quite err...board & each judge can interpreate differently!

I didnt realise, but then saying that they guys from my obedience club were saying that they were being "kind with their marking" on Sunday, so I entered Fagan but unfortunately she wasnt that kind :D :D :D

With regards to companion shows you could have a crufts winner entered but the judge wont always recognise it as that.  and sometimes the judges go against you if you have a show dog because its a "pet" show and will only place pet dogs :rolleyes:

there are judges theres no point me entering under because i know they dont like my dog, & then there are ones that love him!

re cruft winners,dogs that have won CCs arent allowed to compete at companion shows???? i dont think so anyway

but surely its down to faults and not whether they like your dog - how harsh :(

dogs who have CC's and JW's cant enter a companion show but a dog who has say just won its class at crufts can :)

it is down to faults,but the rules do not state what the faults must be!im lucky my dog is prettey much middle of the road,keen & up for it but not ott,so he appeals to a wide spectrum of judges.

& also if it is a obvious fault then a judge can also chose how much to mark it,some may only mark it alittle & some may mark it alot.

also what some judges class as a fault,others may not!!!

all you can do is to train your dog in a style that suits the pair of you & hope for the best!

You dont have to have any CC's to have won your class at Crufts though Michelle ;)

i know i read crufts winner,as crufts BIS!

There are breeds that even if they went BIS wouldn't have won a CC as they don't have CC's yet e.g if the Aussie had won it this year it wouldn't have gained a CC but next year as Crufts is the first time they have CC's it would.

oh yes!!!!! :)

Which means an aussie could have gone BIS at crufts and STILL be eligable for limit I think...

Yes as for limit it says theya re out after 7 wins in Limit where CCs are on offer. so they would win out of Post Grad where it is just 5 or more wins in PG or above at Championship shows.  So for Non CC breeds the only ones not eligible for Limit would be those that had won 3 or more awards counting towards title of champion in another country, or of course overseas Champions.

How very very sad for the girl and her mother that they can't just enjoy the show.  Though there again I went to a companionship show last year and was asked why I was there by one of the organisers because I was in their words a "pedigree snob"  !!!!!  Aggggh   I could of hit her one.

Yes I have a rare breed, but I can't do anything with them at normal shows and then I'm penalised at companionship shows too!#

I've always loved doing companionship shows and I've also had someone who had an import breed that doesn't do well at normal shows tell the judge and organisers that my dog was a Spanish Champion and not legible to be shown at the show, she left the country before she could become a champion so it shows what she knew :d

Eeeeeh some people why can't they enjoy it for what it is a great fun day out to meet people.

it happens in agility also not just breed and obedience, i know of one man that walks the course with his children and bellows out orders to his kids on how to run the dog etc and many a time if his kids don't do well in the ring, they are in tears by the time they come out of the ring, instead of encourageing (spelt wrong) his children he seems to nag them constantly never has a good word to say about them, even when they beat him in the ring,talk about lack of confidence, he is crippling these kids and they are good little handlers as well, but the pressure he puts on them is horrendous.

That sounds terrible. The poor kids. Whenever ive entered Junior Handling its never gone very well. In breed when it was between the two of us, a girl who couldnt control her GSD and me with a Goldie who will do anything for me. The judge spent a while dilberating between us, which i couldnt personally believe. Fineally giving me the 1st, personally i didnt think there was a real competition there!

Then in the obedience ring, at the shows you can really see the parents who push theyre youngsters. Annoyingly in obedience, the class you enter depends on how many wins the handler has had. Therefore if these top class handlers lend their top class dogs to their kids, they win easily. Leaving the rest of us, who have slogged our guts out with the family pet a nice Lab or Goldie standing.  Ive given up JH for that very reason in obedience, its too unfair.

In obedience the opnion as in breed does vary imensly. Unfortunatly my Goldies' a show off, not middle of the road and has a huge charcater to go with it. We get marked down hugely by some who dont seem to like Mollys way of going about things, then other times we can have a pretty bad round a loose very little. It drives me insane! 

Kids with parents in the field automatically seem to have a head start which can leave the rest of us mortals with many years of catching up to do, no matter how good we might be. But, hey its like that in every hobbie there is!! Look at tennis with Venus and Serena-dads a coach?!!!

Junior Handling is still relativly new to the proper show dog world but as a very X JH, I would ask anybody that shows dogs at champ level or does realy well at open level to leave the companion shows to the pet dogs.
Very nice pedigree dogs are pets for all sorts of reasons and X-breeds can be brilliant these are the sorts of dogs that companion shows are for.
I started life in the show ring some 20 years ago with the family mutt. At our first exemption show (a sideline for the horse show) we won our class. I then decided to try junior handling and after a bit of training at our local dog club nothing in the area could beat me ( with a x-breed) so i gave up. It was no fun obviously outclassing all the competition. I later went into obedience open classes not junior at the age of 14. We had some success but because she wasn't a pedigree there was nowhere else to go. Open shows only let you handle pedigree dogs!
I now show pedigree's and my son 13 does JH. I would not let him enter a local fun show even though he is rarely placed at open and champ shows as a puppy English Setter is not the easiest of childrens dogs!
I also would not enter in the pedigree classes as I do show at Champ and open shows with my dog. If however I had a dog which did nothing at open shows I would not find a problem with taking him to a local fun show as he is obviously NOT outclassing the opposition.

Sorry to get so longwinded but POT HUNTING for an extra rossette in Dogs / Horses / etc... annoys me. Also please if you are putting on a junior handler class at fun or open show level please get some exta (special) rossettes, so that all children get a rossette regardless of ability. (ask them to return it if it is not wanted).

I'm sorry but I don't agree.Companion shows are put on to raise money for a charity...they don't care who it comes from as long as they raise funds.If they didn't want 'show dogs' entering then it would say so.I will continue to have fun days out at the occasional companion show(done 2 in the last 3 years) and will continue to use them for training and socialisation purposes.
Archer

I agree Archer, I dont go to "pot hunt" I go for a fun day, sometimes we win and sometimes we dont it all depends on the judge on the day.  But we do have a good time and meet new people and try new things (we are currently branching out into obedience )

Maybe companion shows should have a "purely pets" class for those dogs who are never shown, that way everyone is happy.  To be honest if it wasnt for show people alot of these shows wouldnt get an entry at all.

Don't forget 'Show People' can be an enormous help to the nervous newcomer and pet handler, they can provide much encouragement and also its good to see a show dog and compare your pet with it, some pets would do well in shows they just don't get the chance.

Since it is obvious that my dogs are shown I've had people with pets ask about getting into showing...its always nice to be able to give some encouragement and advice
Archer

Yes I like to do this.  After all dogs with CCs or Rccs can't enter.  showing a potential champion puppy is OK, after all how often witll the judge recognise yoru pusp potential, as they acn't know al the breeds they will be faced with.

I alwys encourage people in the ring and suggest with a smile that they relax encourage dog to stand, and watch what an expereinced person does.  The judges of course wil not penalise an obviously inexpereinced handler with a good dog as they might at a higer level.

Sadly I can only enter my oldest two (13 1/2 and 10 1/2) in the pedigree classes at these shows, so my Champion or her CC winning daughter or RCC winning Mum gets entered in prettiest bitch and gets chucked out, but the charity benefit from the money.  They do usually get a place if we have a brace class or best movement :D

They are lovely for training pups, but those of us who show at higher levels don't take the placings at all seriously, unlike some of the poor sports who show showing up for would be newcomers to the sport.

There are very few "pot hunters" luckily! :)

Has anyone noticed how the prettiest bitch usually gets won by the ugliest ones?????   I think its funny but Charlotte got upset when the judge said her beloved beagie looked droopy!

I once went to one where the only thing Tigger came away with was dog with the waggiest tail the only class guaranteed to be won by a dalmatian her mum once won the happiest dog as she smiles but then Purdy is only ever likely to win that class ;)

I normally notice prittiest bitch is won by small little cute dogs and handsome dog is won by big dogs!!!

Personally I don't find beagles pretty, but the dogs are very handsome!

handsome dog is usually won by a boxer or bulldog :D :D

Yep I agree Bulldogs definately always do better when everyone knows the most handsome dog in the world is my Thomas ;)

Get outer here ;-)
My Truly Scrumptious is the bestest bulldog in the world
So good they named a song after her :-)

Just an update although not strictly about a Junior Handler.  I was helping at a companion show on Sunday at Slough (not organising or anything) just lending a hand as i knew the pedigree judge well but i still wanted to go and have a look, so when i arrived i offered my services.

I recognised the Mother & Junior from a couple of weeks ago. This time the Junior did win the handling class but i have to say that i was appalled by the behaviour of the mother, soon after arriving she went straight to the organiser to complain that there should be more pedigree classes and that it was ridiculous to have just the 4 pedigree ones and countless meaningless novelty ones.  The organiser said that she was thinking of adding to the pedigree section next year but would not cut down on the novelty as people always seemed to like the fun classes.

Then later on she returned with the rosettes she had won telling the organiser she could have these back as they only kept first's and best in show the others were useless to them.  Now i can understand the fact that she did not want to keep the rosettes and that returning them might save the organisers money the following year but pleassse there are ways and means and to my mind that was not one of them (or am i just becoming a moaning minnie now i am clocking it a bit).  But i know that listening to the crowd she has become a very unpopular person although someone said that she was such a nice lady until lately.