I've just always had my puppies neutered as soon as possible, Oscar is my 5th puppy and I've never really questioned the timing. Is there a best time to have them done? Both my males I had done early turned out to be very lovable and laid back and have never showed any signs of aggression to humans or dogs.

I've got this idea that if the dreaded Testesterone(male hormone sorry can't spell)kicks in then they will develop a side of their male personality I don't want, Fighting, scenting, chasing bitches etc

I would be very interested to hear other peoples points of view.

Hi Caz,

This topic has been discussed at great length many times - try using the search facility, you will have endless threads to mull over ;)

On a personal level I am against routine castration - if there is a medical cause (not just a "possible" future one) then obviously it's the thing to do but that aside it would have to be on the grounds of an insurmountable behavioural problem that had been proven to be hormone related (ie. by trying medical treatments to decrease testosterone levels first to see if the undesirable traits abated ;) )

I've kept non-agressive, non-scent marking, wander proof entire males for 15 years - one used several times at stud, and have never had any kind of problem.  Regards, Teri :) 

Were just discussing this on another post, I was told by my vet to get my male Yorkie castrated at around 6 months, but I have been told that this is wrong.

What age do you normally get your dogs castrated caz3536?

Usually at about 5 months or so

I've never experienced any problems but that's only with 2 dogs so far, I'm now having 2nd thoughts!

I agree Teri, I dont agree with the routine neutering of dogs - although I know of a few vets who would disagree :( I have only ever had one dog castrated and that was due to medical reasons.  I have always had male dogs and have never had a problem with their testosterone levels ;)

I have found though that my boys are more attracted to castrated males than they are unneutered males or females, this is due to the scent they give out.

I noticed my male Lab who was castrated young, never got into fights and all dogs loved him.

The local animal sanctuary had a pit bull type dog who they kept hidden away from people so he wasn't reported. He was very aggressive with other dogs and most people but he loved my Lab they played like young puppies, the animal santuary were totally shocked at his change in behaviour towards my dog.

Chances are the reason all dogs loved him was because he smelt like a bitch in season ;)

:D  @  Claire!  Sad but true really - unfortunately this is something vets never seem to mention. 

To OP, the best way to ensure any dog is friendly towards another is socialisation and training.  I've known castrated dogs be dog-nasty, hump people's legs, be wilfull and disobedient and take off with no intention of coming back to their owners until they're good and ready ;)  It's certainly not the cure all that some vets make it out to be and living with entire males needn't ever be a problem.  The risk of testicular cancer is very low and, as with any dog/bitch, regularly checking them all over once a week during grooming would soon reveal any unusual lumps or bumps anywhere on the body and something I'd recommend to all owners of any type of pet, (cat/dog/rabbit/GP/pony et al) regardless of coat length, pet size etc.   I check ears, eyes, teeth and gums, feet, genitals, anus etc on my lot weekly from weeks old until (God willing) their vintage years - shameless I am :P

regards, Teri  :)

My Bichon was castrated at about 10 years old - cant remember why now but it was for medical reasons.  He definitely smelt feminie and the rest of his life he was plagued by other dogs mounting him and he ended up turning quite nasty because he was just fed up with it :(

Still live until he was 17 though the grumpy old stick :p

Teri/ClaireyS,

Did you keep your dogs entire because you were showing them though? I am quite interested in this, because I would have thought that if you weren't showing/breeding, the best thing is to spay/neuter so as that no accidental pups are born? What are the advantages for a pet owner to keep their dog entire?

The dogs is less likely to get obese with a change in it's metabolism.  The metabolic changes caused by neutering can also affect long term heatlh negatively.

You shoulkd have a confident male who is not the object of confusion and lust of any other males who may bully him.

He will look like a male (they were obviously drawn to a male over a female) and act like a male.

I am not trying to sound argumentative, but do you think these points are more of an advantage, than knowing you will not be adding to the problem of unwanted puppies?

You mention the weight gain that can occur after castration, but as I understand it, this can be controlled easily.

I have never seen a dog that is no longer confident, just because he has been done.

The point you make about acting like a male, this is why the OP wanted her dog castrated, she didn't want him peeing up the table leg, or wondering round searching for a mate. Many people choose male puppy/dogs over females, because they tend to be more showier than females, and females are known for their moodiness, not because they want a male dog to look like a female.

As I said I really don't want to start an argument, I am seriously interested. As most CD-ers know we will be getting our pup soon so all of these different views will hopefully make us make the choices for our dog. :D

Hi again Nat,

cross-posting with you there :P  Male dogs are housetrained just as bitches are - so what makes you think they'll go randomly cocking their leg indoors?   Why does everyone inexperienced in dog ownership assume males will wander off looking for a mate?  The breeder of my first male and very much a mentor to me in my breed owned 7 males at one time - all stud dogs - and all of which visited our home.   Not one peed anywhere, fought with my males or harassed my bitches Now if there was ever going to be a problem I think I'd have noticed with that amount (10 in total) of Belgians uncaged and all together in my home :P   Equally, when we visited her there were no problems and as I've said before my own males have been clean, home-loving dogs.

Apart from the obesity factor, neutering often ruins coats - in my breed the undercoat becomes woolly and horrible and the classic "mane" on the males comes out altogether while areas where the coat shold be shorter become ridiculously long.  Basically, everything "masculine" and innately attractive about their physical appearance changes.  Regards, Teri :)

If you are sensible and careful then there will be no adding to the problem of unwanted puppies. Both mine are entire and even though I may get my girl spayed at some point, I doubt i'll have my dog castrated (unless for medical reasons). Even though he is entire he has never displayed any unwanted cocking of his leg in the house or other undesirable male traits.

If I do decide to get mine done then I will wait until they are fully mature before I do so :)

Cor blimey - loads more to think about :D

Teri, I have read many times that un-neutered male dogs will do anything they can to get out and find a mate, and I remember reading a quote from someone(?) "A neutered dog is a loved dog" and all sorts of variants of this. As you say through my inexperience of hands on dog ownership, I have come to believe what I have read and been told that entire dogs will roam and cock their legs indoors, obviously now I have another side of the argument to look into. :O ( ;) I love all of the research really!)

Ice_Cosmos, With you saying you may get your female spayed, but only the males neutered if you had to through a medical condition, does this mean that the benifits of being spayed for a female outweigh the dangers of GA's, obeisity, coat loss, and all of the rest of the things that can can cause male dog's disadvantages? Only asking as we don't know if we will be getting a male or female so I am interested in both sexes. :)

Jeangenie, I was under the impresion that to put a dog on a diet, wasn't the same as starving a dog till the point of him becoming a scavenger. I thought that if you had an overweight dog (whether this is through castration or not) the vet would put him on a prescribed low fat food? Again only things I have read so I am probably wrong again!! :rolleyes:

I have very little experience of castrated dogs (I think I know 2!) and one became noticeably overweight after catration. The other has always been 'chunky' (show-bred lab) so it's hard to tell how he'd have been otherwise.

As for the prescription diets - there are 'nutritionists' on here who'll tell you they're a total waste of maney, bad for your dog and designed only to line the vet's wallet. They'll tell you the best way to cut a dog's weight is to simply cut the quantities of their normal food and increase the exercise. However, that won't change the fact that absence of sex hormones predisposes to the laying down of body fat.

You'd think, the tales people tell, that all these entire dogs would be roaming, fighting and mating all over the place. Nope! Not true. And I don't believe that I'm lucky enough to live in an area where everyone is more-than-averagely responsible. ;)

I am going to have to do some serious research into this - OH will think I have gone mad, spent the last 3/4 months going on at him how bad all of these BYB's and puppy farmers are, and that whatever happens our dog will be spayed/neutered so we don't ever find ourselves in the situation, and now he is going to come home to me saying, we are not having our dogs bits taken off , they get fat and lose their coat, and get bullied by other dogs!

I have a dog and a bitch. Phoebe is spayed because having a dane in season is not a pleasant prospect when you have no outside kennels. For her first season she went back to her breeder, but now - no more problems.

Willis is entire and I certainly would not castrate him *incase* he got out (he wouldn't and couldn't), cocked his leg (he's housetrained - he wouldn't dream of it) and testicle-health-wise its easy to check cos he spends most of his time on his back, legs in the air and believe me - you can't miss them :D

Aaaw Willis, bless  :D :D :D

Hi again ;)

> "A neutered dog is a loved dog" and all sorts of variants of this.<

that sounds a lot like something that came directly off a vet's website :rolleyes: or from the USA (where pups are often neutered at WEEKS of age rather than months ) 

>Only asking as we don't know if we will be getting a male or female so I am interested in both sexes.<

I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended Nat, but your best port of call on research is specific to your breed and personally if I were you I'd be seriously looking into the difference in character between males and females first.  Speak to as many Aussie owners as you can and ask how they would describe the difference in the character traits between the two sexes.  You've chosen a beautiful, but not particularly easy breed, as I'm sure you've already been made aware so getting the basics right, ie. dog or bitch (I know you've thoroughly researched the integrity of the breeder) is essential.
My own preference (cos I'm odd :P ) is males - they have that added zest about them and attitude - nothing to do with show dogs here, just gender traits.  However IME males, generally, can be more of a handful than bitches but personally I also find them to be more loving (in a nose nipping, bum biting way!) and eager to please than the girls.  But you have to decide what best suits you, your family circumstances and your own abilities.  Teri :)

Yes Teri, most of what I have read is American. There just isn't enough about Aussies from English sites to please me! :)

We have looked into the differences with the sexes, I do personally prefer the males as well and I like their attitude, but we would be just as happy with a female, I wouldn't turn down the perfect puppy (for us) just because it was female. I know what you are saying about the differences, but to us, they amount to the same sort of differences you would get between two female/male puppies, if that makes sense? :)

Sorry I am all up in the air today, I found out that the 'mum' of our pup has come into season! I feel like when I first found out I was pregnant! Stupid really because the dog isn't even pregnant - yet! I haven't been able to sit still all day!

I'm sure you're excited Natalie which is lovely and no doubt frustrating all at the same time.

Re. the differences between sexes amounting to similar differences between two puppies of the same sex - we'll have to agree to differ ;)  To try and simplify what my thoughts are (I'm not really on the ball today :rolleyes: so bear with me!) I would define the differences between two puppies of the same sex as a difference in their natural "personality".   The differences between the characteristics of each sex are generally quite marked as these are driven by hormones in addition to personality so I would define them as "traits".  Over and above which, the size and more importantly substance of a male is generally markedly different to that of a female - even taking into account small to medium sized male versus medium to large sized bitch.  You may think size doesn't matter :P but you'd be surprised at the difference even 3-5 KG of weight makes when being pulled, bounced on, shuffled across the sofa or bearing the weight of your furry friend on top of your legs can make :D   With all the research you've done, (and good on you) I think it's important now to focus on actual verbal interactions with owners of the breed as well as a sit down with the family to actually make a decision on what you genuinely want.  I must admit I'm a little surprised that you're not too bothered either way about which sex you have   But, each to their own and good luck!  Teri :)

>> I must admit I'm a little surprised that you're not too bothered either way about which sex you have

Why? :) When I first started looking into my breed I was advised to go for a bitch first. I originally wanted a male but took the advice and got a bitch. I was always planning a multi dog household and dogs of the opposite sex are more likely to get on better so I was guided by experienced people in the breed as to which sex to get first. If I had gone with my heart I would have got a male first.

Hi ice-cosmos, I thought I'd covered the "why" part when highlighting the differences in temperament and physical size of the sexes, particularly in a medium + breed ;)

Personally I think these issues would make a difference to most novice owners when purchasing a puppy as a family pet - they certainly did to us!   We had a young child, little to none in the way of doggy experience and were advised by people who knew better than us to acquire a bitch - advice which we followed and, like you, soon added a male  :D :D :D   But then Natalie hasn't expressed a wish to have a multi dog household and, that aside, from my own personal experience I'm glad that we first dipped our toes into our own breed with a bitch.   She was easy going, affectionate and gentle and we couldn't have had a better introduction.  Yet 7 months later, having caught the show-bug (by chance) and lusted after the more glamorous males, we got our first "boy"!  And what a boy :D  It was a steep learning curve and had we not had a lot of fabulous advice and practical help we may well have ended up with a hooligan as we failed to recognise the difference in both character and sheer strength until he'd hit puberty.  Having since had further bitches and another male and knowing so many people within my breed I am fully aware that our experience was very much the norm - hence when I had my own litter only those who had researched the breed and knew exactly what they were committing to were allowed a puppy and despite having to let some pre-booked owners down as there was not enough of their preferred sex available, I would not have attempted to persuade them to change their choice of sex and no-one approached me without already having decided dog or bitch anyway!  Regards, Teri :)

>> I thought I'd covered the "why" part when highlighting the differences in temperament and physical size of the sexes, particularly in a medium + breed

Ah, it's just because you ended you post with that comment that I was wondering :)

My experience was actually the opposite to yours :p My bitch is alot more independant than my dog whom is incredibly laid back and affectionate. At the moment he behaves brilliantly with everything (though that could obviously change as he matures). I'm looking at getting another in a couple of years and will most likely go for another bitch (with another dog following a few years later ;) ). I wouldn't mind sneaking an Aussie in at some point though :D

Teri I see your point, we are going to Blackpool on the 26th, and there are going to be around 40 Aussies there, so we may have a clearer picture then. As yet we have seen the differences between the sexes but only in our breeders dogs, so maybe with a more varied out look at Blackpool we will see the bigger picture.

What you need to understand about the states Nat is that unwanted puppies and dogs are a huge problem there and they will do most anything to help prevent it, even if it isn't strictly best for the individual dog.  Many people have unfenced gardens, live in apartments etc but still have dogs.

>> Ice_Cosmos, With you saying you may get your female spayed, but only the males neutered if you had to through a medical condition, does this mean that the benifits of being spayed for a female outweigh the dangers of GA's, obeisity, coat loss, and all of the rest of the things that can can cause male dog's disadvantages? Only asking as we don't know if we will be getting a male or female so I am interested in both sexes.

Good question - I'm not happy about having either of mine put under a GA unecessarily (as they are a breed which can have problems under GA). As the earliest I would have her done would be in about a year I have time to look into the pro's/cons in far more detail. My main cause of concern in a bitch would be Pyometra and I'd want to get data referring to the number of incidences before I made my decision. I rarely show either of mine so the coat texture wouldn't be too much of a problem and they are worked so hopefully the weight could be controlled (though she does put weight on very easily).

Why would a well-controlled, well-trained entire male be a problem? He won't be adding to the numbers of unwanted puppies, because he won't be wandering (it's not compulsory! ;) ). Entire dogs are usually perfectly clean in the house, unless they haven't been house-trained of course. Also males, if castrated young, tend to grow taller and lay down more body fat than entire ones. This is a proven effect of castrration in farm animals, and was also noticed in the 'olden days' of castrati singers ... The weight-gain isn't always easily controlled (unless you're happy to cut the food down to a level where the dog's always hungry and becomes a nuisance scavenging).
:)

JG I have 2 neutered male BC's and weight gain has never been an issue, quite the opposite! I have trouble keeping weight on one of them although the other one is not a problem. I have not cut down their food, in fact they are on higher protein working dog food and get slightly more than the recommended amount. They also get table scraps and fruit and treats, usually tripe sticks and ox pizzles. Not all neutered dogs gain weight, I know dozens more like mine but they are kept fit and active and that I think makes all the difference. :-)

If you keep your dog responsibly and don't allow it out alone (which no responsible person would) then how is it going to dire unwanted puppies?

"Many people choose male puppy/dogs over females, because they tend to be more showier than females, and females are known for their moodiness, not because they want a male dog to look like a female."

By castrating you take these features away and basically turn them into a bitch with male atrrributes, ehnce why so many other males get confused about their gender.  It is the testosterone and puberty that allow those 'showier'  typical male look to develop.

Hi Nat,

LOL, I see Brainless has pretty much covered what I'd have said :P  Additionally I cannot condone unnecessary use of a GA on animals - we wouldn't condone it on people, would we, and at least they have a choice for say a GA for cosmetic surgery?

It's the responsibility of owners to ensure that their males do not contribute to "accidental" litters just as much as it is to ensure that their in season bitches aren't accessible to males, in or out of the home.  My dogs are all house dogs, I don't personally approve of kennels as they are my pets and I only keep a number with which we can happily organise our family life around, and I've always had at least one entire dog and bitch at the same time.  Common sense (and the co-operation of everyone in the family is essential of course ;) ) and vigilance has ensured that accidents haven't ever happened. ( hope I don't live to eat my words! )  I don't see the castration of males as being an advantage or disadvantage to me as an owner - I look at what is in the best interests of my dogs.  Regards, Teri :)

My dogs were kept entire because thats exactly what they were - dogs, if I had wanted a bitch I would have bought a bitch ;)

I prevent unwanted pups by not allowing my dogs to wander :)

Oh so is it the doggy equivalent of a sex change then? I thought it was like a man having the snip!!! LOL :D

Put it this way - when men have to be castrated for medical reasons (yes, it does happen) they need to be on replacement testosterone for life, to prevent them growing breasts, etc ...

No it makes your dog the equivalent to a Eunuch. 

It is what they used to do to little boys so they could serve in harems, or keep their high voices. 

In China the last Eunuch dies a few years ago.

I humans at it caused health changes and altered appearance etc, and it does the same to animals.

There are still (voluntary) eunuchs in India - they 'work' as 'ladyboys' ...

Yes but when you look at why MOST of them do this, it is not ENTIRELY voluntary always, the alternative can be worse...............

Yes - but it still has a physical effect on their appearance, clothes and make-up notwithstanding.

I too have had two entire male stud dogs staying at my house with never any sign of leg lifting behaviour :D 

Yet I refuse to have visiting Pet dogs as I have found that they inevitably lifted in the house probably as the presence of my dogs when they were perhaps not used to being in a very multidog household was unsettling.

Why are Guide dogs for the blind always castrated and are police dogs castrated?

Neutering of GDB would be a sensible option for safety and practicality purposes of their disabled owners.  Police dogs are not castrated ;)

Regards, Teri

police dogs are not routinely castrated however, as some of them are gift dogs, there are castrated dogs working as police dogs.

This seems so strange to me, we had dogs when I was growing up - all spayed/neutered except one Jack Russel bitch that was a nightmare, moody all of the time and VERY touchy when she was on heat, and before I even started researching for our puppy I always thought that if you had a dog that was never intended to be bred from, you had her/him spayed/neutered.

This is a real eye opener for me, I can fully understand all of your points, I am going to speak to our breeder, obviously no point in talking to the vet because he wants his pay packet :rolleyes:

The other thing I remember reading was that a castrated dog/bitch won't get cancer in their respected parts! Is this another American tactic? I suppose it would depend on how often cancer in these areas occurs in a breed - I will look into it!

Thanks again for all of your advice, sorry to OP, once again it has gone off subject - not strayed too far this time though :D

>I suppose it would depend on how often cancer in these areas occurs in a breed - I will look into it!

Absolutely! Yes, removal of part of the body will certainly prevent cancer in that part  - but it's important to know how likely that would have been anyway. And whether that organ has a function in the overall health of the animal. There is research on the net that suggests that more incidences of prostate cancer (harder to detect than testicular cancer) occur in castrated dogs than in entire ones ...

The board generally appears to be anti castration ..which in itself is no bad thing ..but sometimes some members can make you feel that you are a bad owner IF you choose that option ;) (not deliberately I hasten to add)

Look at the pros and cons and decide for yourself. IF you decide to go ahead, my advice would be to leave it until after your dog has gone through the teenage months (or years :D )

I had Hudson castrated when he was  2 and a half and have had no problems with him. He is still the same dog as he always was....but we won't suffer any accidents with my bitches (who are younger). We wanted bitches but son't have the ability to seperate them for 4 weeks at a time. We can seperate them if we need to for short periods but not longer.

Good luck with your decision. There are a lot of very experienced dog owners here and most have very strong opinions ;)

Fair point!  :D

But it's important that people should be given the facts (and have myths dispelled ;) ) so they're able to make an informed decision.
:)

Agreed JG , as long as it is their decision ;) :D

I htink i am going to have to get murphy castrated soon, (He's a year) not directly because of his behaviour but becuase other males are coming up to him and growling at him and as he's a rescue dog and of a sensitive nature he is starting to become wary of other dogs, something that he wasn't before. I have other dogs (bitches) and these dogs don't have a go at them so it is directly aimed at poor murphy who is usually minding his own business sniffing the ground. I had hoped to at least wait until 15 months or so to allow him to mature fully, but he is now starting to panic everytime a dog has a go and he is starting to bark and lunge in a panic when they start. Its such a shame. :-(