Hi All,

We have been to see some pups, and one of the ones we fell in love with was a little boy, but he is deaf.

We have the time to train him, and give him extra love. We don't want to not have him just because he is deaf as he has a great personality.

The thing is I do have a child, and I was wondering how a deaf dog would be with my child? As the pup wouldn't be able to hear my child.

Could anyone give me some advice? The pup will be 7.5 weeks if we have him. So young enough to get used to my child?

Thanks in advance

In my opinion a responsible breeder would either put the pup to sleep or keep it themselves. 

There are plenty of healthy pups that need homes without knowingly letting someone have to deal with the very real restrictions and problems with training and keeping a deaf dog.

Often dog that are aggressive out of control etc are those that are deaf as they are frustrated and difficult to communicate with as pups.  It is hard enough to get the attention of a hearing pup.  there is a higher risk of deaf pup taking fright because something comes on it unawares, more likely to react badly if waken suddenly as they didn't hear in yoru case the child coming etc etc.  With an older dog or pup you already ahve the dog so you deal with it, at this stage the breeder should just deal with the heartache involved.

Just My Opinion.

I agree with Brainless. My breed club's code of conduct says that all totally deaf puppies shall be put down humanely, once diagnosed.

The breed is difficult enough for many novice owners without throwing in the additional difficulty of deafness.

As long is your child is taught how to respect your pup I cant see there being a problem, he will need to be taught not to surprise your pup especially when it is sleeping because deaf dogs sleep very deep and they need to be woken up gently. 

My parents have a deaf dog, she is now two and a pleasure to live with (I did most of her training when they first got her and managed to get her through her bronze good citizen :) ).  A good book for training deaf dogs is by barry eaton (I forget what it is called but if you look on amazon it should be on there)

good luck with your pup and well done for taking on a deaf dog.  If you want any more info you can email me at claireys@msn.com.

I posted at the same time as you brainless.  IMO if the owners are aware of the dog being deaf and are aware of the restrictions then its not a problem, its when people buy a pup and they are not aware it is deaf (deaf dogs can be very convincing that they can hear) and then the pup gets labeled as naughty because it doesnt do as its told when in reality it just cant hear.  As with all dogs if the pup is well socialised etc then there shouldnt be a problem :)

Maybe I look on things differently as a breeder as I beleive it unethical to knowingly pass on a puppy with a health problem that will have a major effect on it's quality of life, and that such pups should not be reared, especially as perfectly healthy ones are put to sleep regularly.

Have to say I agree with Brainless.  IMHO I think we keep some dogs alive for the wrong reasons.  There are hundreds of healthy puppies available and most people find those difficult enough to train adequately.

The original poster wouldnt even have this quandary if the breeder wasn't playing on their sympathy, as they shouldn't even have been shown the deaf puppy, it should have been seperated from the others before viewing (frankly nit should already have been put to sleep).  If the breeder can't cope with ahrd decisions then they shouldn't be breeding. 

I suppose we all see it from different angels, my parents dog is great and has a fantastic quality of life,  my mum and dad wouldnt be without her.  I can see from a breeders point of view you wouldnt want to pass on a "problem" pup, Lily (my parents dog) was born at battersea and they had strict criteria about the type of home she should go to and she has fitted in so well with no problems.  :)

At what age was her deafness discovered? 

Sorry Brainless, ive only just seen your question.  We rehomed her at 16 weeks (it was we cos I still lived at home then ;) ) she was born at the centre, I dont think they told us when they realised but it must have been when she was quite young.

I too agree with Brainless, I would think you could have real problems.  Don't forget you cant teach them "no" because they wont hear you, you HAVE to have their attention to communicate in any way to them, they are a liability if they ever get loose, you cannot call them back if they do get out, you cant stop them wrecking, barking, or hurting themselves unless you are right there with them. Training a deaf dog is VERY hard, not something I would reccommend at all.
Dawn.

You might want to have a look at this website for further info. Having rehomed a deaf puppy a few months ago, I guess that makes me an irresponsible breeder but I don't regret our decision for a second as our deaf girl is a super, happy pup who has gone to an experienced home (experienced with the breed but not with deaf dogs) and is doing really well at her training, far better than many of the hearing dogs at her training classes. I'm afraid there is absolutely no way we would have had this lovely healthy pup put to sleep but we did do a lot of research when it came to finding a suitable home for her & talked to other breeders who had successfully rehomed deaf puppies. I cannot advise you whether to take on this puppy or not (some breeds are no doubt more challenging than others) but would suggest that some of the advice given has been harsh & overly negative & that you need to do lots more research & talk to other owners of deaf dogs before making a decision. I am quite frankly appalled at some of the comments I've read on this thread :-(

Jane

That is OK Jane :D

I just see so many people struggling to train pups and also dogs being in need of rehoming because the owners have failed to do so that to take a risk with a disability on top just seems too big a risk and unfair on both the dog and new owner.  I am glad your homing went well.

With more challenging breeds like Dallly's, Bull Terriers and Border Collies adding deafness into the mix can increase the chances of the outcome being poor.

My parents dog is a lurcher - with an extemely high prey drive   Whether she could hear or not when she is chasing she wouldnt come back. When playing over the field with other dogs (a secure field) she keeps an eye on you and will come back to a hand signal.  She knows when she is being told off by the look on your face and the wagging finger, she knows when she is being good again by the expression on your face and your body language.

Im with Brainless - in our breed (Bull Terrier) which suffers from deafness we are not allowed to sell/home for free deaf puppies.
We should have them PTS or keep them ourselves.
Uni pups on the other hand make very good pets but obviously should have breeding restriction placed on their registrations.
Bull Terrier welfare do not home deaf puppies/adults.
It is against all of our breed clubs rules that breeders are not allowed to have any part in the homing of deaf dogs.
I guess it would depend what breed the deaf puppies is a toy breed wouldn't be as much risk as a Bull Terrier.
In our breed it is known that deaf animals don't normally have sound temperaments.

Jo

It's not just my homing that went well - there are many homings of deaf dogs that go well. That's not to say every owner is suitable to take on the challenge of training a deaf dog - of course that's not true. All I'm saying is do some research first - find out what owning & training a deaf dog entails, talk to other owners & trainers, read books (there are several books available on training deaf dogs). Just because a breeder chooses to raise a deaf puppy does not make them irresponsible as long as they do the necessary research & make sure any would-be owner understands what they are taking on. It goes without saying that the deaf puppy we rehomed (not sold) must come back to us if there any problems later on, the same as with any other puppy we breed.

Jane

Hi, Even though my sentiment goes out to the puppy.
But! I do agree with brainless. It can be cruel to be kind.
The breeder is out of order showing the pup.
Regards
Denese

I was in a position where my collie x gsd had middle ear disease, it started in one ear and then got it in his other ear. Before the 2nd operation I took him to training classes to learn hand signals before the other ear was done as this was going to leave him deaf. Even with the training, he was a nightmare to recall and would run off to play with his friends. He would look round to see where I was and come running back. If I was in a park that he didn't know, I would not let him off the lead at all, so 99% of the time we stayed in our park. I have to say that is was very hard work but he had a great life even though he could not hear for the last 3 years of his life.
I imagine with a deaf pup and a child could cause problems and if there was a choice between a hearing pup and a deaf pup, I would go for the one that hears when there are children involved. If I was on my own and no kids around, I may think differently.

Hi everyone,
A highly emotive topic. I have to agree with Jane on this however. I do not see deafness as a reason for a puppy to be put to sleep. In fact, I find it almost appalling to think people see this as an option.
I have encountered only 3 deaf dogs of my breed (border collies - one of the breeds mentioned as being particularly difficult). 1 dog had been trained to work sheep and the other two had been trained to compete in agility. Of course, training methods have to be adapted to meet their needs. It's funny though - agility handlers will tell you that the dogs respond to 90% of your body language and only 10% of what actually comes out of your mouth! Not a huge disadvantage for a deaf dog then!
My point is, being deaf is NOT a reason for a dog to live a poor quality of life.
Jane, I think you have done a great job in rehoming this particular puppy of yours and I hope the new owners enjoy the training and learning that will come with this experience!
With ANY puppy, you must select the owners based on their knowledge, lifestyle and experiences. Why should this be different with a deaf puppy?
colliecrew

Speaking as an owner and someone who's interested in training and behaviour I would feel very sad if a pup was put to sleep if it was deaf.

I do however agree that the right owners with time and more, commitment need to be found. Also good back up help from a trainer - someone such as Barry Eaton who specialises in training deaf dogs would be excellent help.

I rehomed a deaf boxer (used to homecheck for the RSPCA ) and he was found a superb home and was greatly loved. I agree it's an emotive topic; the main thing is matching pup to owner.

Lindsay
x

Speaking as a non-breeder, IMO it would be sad that a puppy would be PTS just because it was deaf, I could understand people voicing strong opinions if the OP was talking of breeding from a deaf animal.

My very limited experiance of deaf dogs are a deaf boxer owned by a neighbour, two deaf springers a deaf cocker we met at training classes and a deaf collie, all of them are happy dogs who enjoy life to the full,  there's five dogs who wouldn't be around to bring joy to their respective owners if there breeders had them PTS. I apreciate they are a lot more work, but then anything worth having is worth a bit more effort.

I know all the breeders here put their dogs welfare as the utmost priority, but to a non-breeding dog lover such as my self, comments  reagarding euthanasia could give the impression that the breeders are more concerned with whats easist for them, i.e a deaf puppy would be a pain to home to the right person, so better to put it to sleep.

>comments  reagarding euthanasia could give the impression that the breeders are more concerned with whats easist for them

I appreciate and fully understand why you said could give that impression, but what the breeders are concerned about is the chances that the handicap may impinge on the dog's quality of life, especially when there aren't enough owners who can manage to train a hearing dog ... Homing puppies is a risky business at the best of times, and a pup's future is too important to take unnecessary risks with it. A short life, but a happy one, is far better in many people's opinions than a long, restricted one.

There are indeed success stories - but people in rescue will tell you there are far more failures, resulting in mistreated, unhappy animals. :(

I understand what your saying JG, maybe thats why I would never consider breeding , too many hard decisions to make for my poor sensitive heart to make ;) and I'd keep them all any way :D

I would never consider given a home to a deaf puppy with children.  It is not in anyway the easy option putting a deaf puppy to sleep when you have given 6 weeks of your life into making a healthy puppy.  I personally having a breed which suffers with deafness would not hesitate to put a deaf dog to sleep because I would want to know what happened with it once the novelty of a puppy wore off.  People who have the time and dedication to raise a deaf puppy are few and far between.

But what's the difference between a failed home for a deaf puppy and a failed home for a full hearing dog? Responsible breeders will take back any puppy where the new owners have had a change of circumstances/heart.
In my mind, putting to sleep a deaf puppy for that issue alone is appalling at least and at most, immoral. There is absolutley no justification in my mind for it. In fact, the more I consider it, the angrier it makes me.
Rather than assume a deaf puppy will fail, owners won't be able to cope with it, will lead a poor quality of life etc, perhaps some breeders would do well to meet with owners and trainers of deaf dogs and educate selves on success rather than failure. Therefore be more in a position to offer advice, support and guidance should you find yourself having bred a deaf puppy.
Of course, you then run the risk of having to admit that your lines have produced a deaf puppy - call me cynical - but something you don't want to be public knowledge? It's funny when a line shows a defect and suddenly that "oh so concerned - keep me informed" breeder no longer wants to know. My epileptic dog and I are well familiar with that!
colliecrew

>Of course, you then run the risk of having to admit that your lines have produced a deaf puppy

So? It happens, and you face up to it. Fortunately I've never produced one that turned out to be totally deaf - plenty of unilaterals (too many for my liking) but that's the way it goes. Two bilaterally-hearing dogs can produce unilaterally or bilaterally deaf puppies. My bitch was one of the first the be BAER tested in the UK - that was 12 years ago - so it's not been going long, and is the only way to detect unilateralism. Previously they would likely have been bred from so the gene/s were more widespread.

Before BAER was as widely available as it was, a friend of mine produced a deaf puppy in one of her early litters. He was a very clever pup and imitated the behaviour of the rest of the litter in such a way that it was difficult to tell whether or not he could hear. He passed the (then) routine tests of dropping keys etc to see the reaction, so he was homed to people who seemed ideal owners.

Four years later she was contacted by his 5th - yes, 5th set of owners as he'd proved too much for them, as well as all the others (who were too ashamed at their perceived 'failure' to contact the breeder :rolleyes: despite the puppy contract they'd signed) who passed him along. My friend immediately collected him and brought him home for assessment.

He was a wreck. He'd been beaten for 'disobedience', he'd not been off the lead for two years, and hadn't been taken out at all for over a year because he was so hyper through lack of exercise. He was so frustrated, scared and confused that he'd lost all trust in people and had started biting. He was BAER tested, proved to be deaf, and was put to sleep the same day.

That's what can happen to a deaf puppy who's homed with the best of intentions. Never again will my friend take that chance with the future of one of 'her' babies.

But JG, that puppy was homed as a hearing pup with owners who assumed it could hear, that is what can happen when pups arent tested.  Surely if an owner knows the pup is deaf then they know what they are letting themselves in for and can prepare :)

But then there's the possibility that they'd be even less likely than those people were to return the pup if they don't succeed with him. They could see it as even more of a failure on their part because they knew the worst from the outset. :(

That would depend on the individual, im sure some people even with a hearing pup would hate to admit to being a failure :(

Very true. And these are the one's who'll pass the pup on to someone else, not back to the breeder, and maybe not explain about the deafness and how it's been such a problem for them that they've had to give him up. :( Perhaps their reason for rehoming him is "allergies" - that's when the dog really starts suffering. :(

>He'd been beaten for 'disobedience', he'd not been off the lead for two years, and hadn't been taken out at all for over a year because he was so hyper through lack of exercise. He was so frustrated, scared and confused that he'd lost all trust in people and had started biting

Come on JG - that could be ANY dog whether hearing or non-hearing who has been placed in the wrong home. Granted, perhaps if the dog was able to hear then some of these issues may not have been so apparent. Difficult to imagine that he went through 5 owners and not one of them noticed that he didn't jump at loud noises, nor become startled when approached. However, breeders will ALWAYS have a regret about a particular home they allowed a puppy to go home to. THAT also happens, this isn't an issue about deafness, rather about poor owners, poorly trained, what chance does a dog have whether he/she can hear or not?
A carefully chosen home, aware of the fact the puppy is deaf, experienced in dog training, kept in contact with the breeder, seeking expert help... versus...immediate cessation of the life of the puppy based purely on the fact he/she is deaf and the ideation that you will never find the correct home for him and he may live a poor quality life...come on!

And where are you supposed to find these chosen homes?   I like JG have been so very fortunate to have never had a deaf puppy and only a couple of uni's which is way better than the average for our breed.  If you really want to know what happens to those who think it is more kind to sell a deaf puppy just because they have not got the courage to deal with the problem then ring up dalmatian rescue and I am sure they will fill you in with what happens to these poor animals.  The incident JG is talking about is not isolated and although yes it can happen to full hearing dogs the incidences when it happens to deaf one far exceeds the amount to normal hearing ones.  To encourage someone with a child to take on a deaf animal is beyond me.

As long as a child is taught to respect a dog it wouldnt make a difference whether the dog was deaf or not. But naturally that is just my opinion just based on my experience, and you of course are welcome to yours :)

Have you actually got children?  I am not being nasty but even the best behaved children can quite easily go up and hug a dog and if it is not aware that is there then there is a good possibility it will bite.  I have had experience of a deaf old english sheepdog so do know it from the other side.  Children are unpredictable as they should be they are kids.  I know this forum tends to have a lot of the anti kid brigade but the fact remains the poster is specifically asking about her child.

No I dont have children ( thank god ;) ) but my mum often looks after a neighbours child who is always cuddling Lily and she is fine.  I still say it is how the child and dog are bought up, a hearing dog could be startled into biting someone, as children we often got nipped by one of our dogs for tredding on him and he could hear us coming fine, he just didnt appreciate being trodden on.

Didnt think you did I think if you did your view would be different.

I dont .......... but I wont get into an argument about it :)

>And where are you supposed to find these chosen homes?

The same way I found homes for my last litter. 6 homes selected from 15 applications. Can only hope I selected the right 6 homes - a breeder can never be 100% sure.

>To encourage someone with a child to take on a deaf animal is beyond me.

I have not encouraged the OP to "take on" a deaf dog. I simply believe that a puppy should not be PTS based pure and simply on the fact "it is deaf and it would be difficult to find them the right home". The OP has to decide, with the assistance of the breeder, if she can offer this dog the most appropriate home based on her lifestyle and experience.

I keep checking this thread in the hope that someone will throw me a clincher as to why a deaf dog, in the right hands, with the right training could not live a high quality of life. I now have to accept that this will not happen - there is no reason as to why this is justifiable. In my line of work, justifying your actions for any response you make is paramount. I suggest that breeders look at this dilemna and ask yourself " is this the right thing for the puppy, or am I doing this for another reason". If your "justifying" reasons are "it may be badly treated" or "finding him the right home will be hard" then do these questions not apply to a hearing dog? OF COURSE they do!!!

Words really do fail me on this thread. Soul destroying.

It boils down to whether or not you prefer quality of life or quantity of life. A handicapped pup is less likely than others to have good quality of life. There aren't enough good homes for puppies anyway (or there wouldn't be so many in rescue). Those who deal with rescue on a day-to-day basis have seen the reality of the situation for many of these pups.

Playing the devils advocate here,  given there isn't enough good homes for puppies anyway, would it be fair to say breeders are breeding in the hope that they will be able to place the whole litter in a suitable home. I know well bred dogs are always in demand, but this creates a market which is filled by breeders who are maybe not quite so concerned where there puppies are going

If dogs were only bred to provide puppies for good owners on a list, rather then being bred then the breeder going through a selection process surely those puppies that are born deaf for example would stand a better chance of finding a capable owner enabling the puppy to enjoy a full life.

Not quite what I'm trying to say.

I think we are hitting our heads against a brick wall here JG!!!

No your not :D  I thankfully own a breed that isn't born with any major congenital conditions.  The level of HD is such that it does not avesely affect quality of life and the incidence of eye disease is thankfully tiny.

I would always put to sleep any puppy with an abnormality that would make it handicapped, and I am a handicapped peerson born with only 110 to 20% vision. 

If there are so many clever commited owners around I would like them to have the benefit of as perfect and trouble free a pup as it is possible for me to breed.

Dogs with poor temperament can be managed and live a good life, but any breeder knowingly passing on such a one woudo be castigated.

I do not have to justify myself as I am RESPONSIBLE and subscribe to 4 breed clubs who thankfully have a code of ethics drawn up by straight thinking people not some ill informed person who obviously has very little understanding of the full implications of putting deaf puppies into the world.  As I have said twice before speak to the two welfare organisations and they will give you endless reasons why it is irresponsible.  

you would not have 15 people for a deaf puppy - although dont tell me you would.  The dalmatian clubs have spent a great deal of time and trouble educating people to realise that buy a deaf puppy is IRRESPONISBLE especially with children involved.  I had one uni lateral which I doubt if you understand means it can only hear in one ear and I had a terrible job finding a good home for it because people apart from people who think it is trendy to have a handicapped pet as it makes them a bigger person than the rest of us. 

As for words failing you words fail me but then I have seen first hand the results of this type of thinking. 

thomas-the-spot I realise you obviously feel passionate about this subject, you have your view and other people have their, maybe your right, maybe your not. I don't think implying people are incapable of understanding a term will help much in your cause, just incase you don't understand that last bit, being sarcastic in your posts doesn't really endear you to people who are trying to understand a problem.

have a nice day (that means don't have a bad one)  :)

Thomas,
I would ask for some more respect than being classified as "an ill-informed person who has very little understanding of the full implications of putting deaf puppies into the world".
I am also fully aware of what unilateral implies. Although thank you for your concern that I am may not be and taking the time to educate my perceived ill-informed hide. It would be easy for me to respond with equal slurs on your character - however, this never achieves anything except to shine the light on your own character :)

tHOMAS-THE SPOT.........!!!!!!!!!!!All arguments about deaf dogs apart....how totally arrogant of you to assume that you are the only person to know what the word "unilateral" means..........Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some of us actually have been to school you know.

>Responsible breeders will take back any puppy where the new owners have had a change of circumstances/heart.

Of course - but they can't do that if they're not informed about it.

This dog deserves a chance, and if you are willing to give this dog a happy life with loads of love, then i would say that is your choice, the fact that you chose this dog over the others shows that you are a good person.  imho dogs shud not be put down because they are deaf.  A friend of mine is deaf and he taught sign language to many rotts when they were in his care.

My parents dog is a damn sight better behaved than a lot of hearing dogs we meet at the park, they have put effort into her training but only as much as you would a hearing dog, all it is is different methods of training.