Hi all, i was just wondering if showing was based on who you know and not your dog, any views considered.

Warm regards Frank

I've known people win well at their first show.

Remember, the people who've been around longest have generally learned a lot and are better able to recognise a promising puppy than a beginner. In other words, the 'old hands' generally have the best dogs!

It depends on the judge, the other week I went to a champ show where the judge looked at the face of the handler before placing him/her you could predict the face who was going to win :( 

You are right in what you say though JG the "old hands" do generally have the best dogs, but then there are those of us who are lucky enough to have the pick of an "old hands" litter, I can guarantee my pup would do more winning if his breeder showed him :(

>those of us who are lucky enough to have the pick of an "old hands" litter, I can guarantee my pup would do more winning if his breeder showed him

True - many of the well-known successful breeders are damned good handlers too ... ;)

But judges are human, and humans have failings. You learn which are the ones to trust, jus in any sphere of life.
:)

I would agree partially with what JG has said, in that, in theory, the more well-known, old hands should have the better dogs but not always :D I have been showing, and going to shows just to watch, since July and in that time have seen lots of well deserving dogs winning but also some that, IMO, have won because of who is on the end of the lead rather than the dog.

Now, I'm not making any accusations about anyone in any breed, this is just what I have gathered from my personal experience. ANd I'm prepared to correct myself by going well with my little man :D Taqking into consideration that I'm not a 'face' but I have what me and his breeders think is a nice dog...time will tell :D

Emily

I know of somebody who is a very good handler and has been handling a dog for a while, now his owner is doing the job and hasn't had anywhere near the success as the handler did!

In my experience, on 99% of occasions, judges are doing their honest best to put up the dogs they feel are the most deserving. No one wants to be known as a 'face judge' and although some will have other things on their minds, I believe that this is the minority.

I think it is a lot down to what JG has said. Also, a judge is often a breeder and doing like everyone else - trying to breed as closely to the standard as they possibly can. If they are succeeding in this, their own dogs will be close to their interpretation of the standard and the progeny and relations of their dogs (which may be known to them) will also be of this type.

Hope this makes sense,
Jen

I can only speak from personal experience but on the whole the judging in my breed is 99.9% off the time pretty fair....thats not to say that I always agree with the judges choices but then thats what makes showing interesting.
Archer

From my experience showing Danes it is very facey and usually the well known handler has the advantage. I showed my dog myself and struggled especially when I got to Limit. For various reasons I handed him to a well known breeder and exhibitor to show, since then he has won 3 RCC'c and 2 CC's. In my view that speaks for itself.

Well today at Birmingham National i n Cavaliers who always have good entries my boys were placed 4th & 2nd in two of the biggest classes & We are nobodies in Cavaliers

I wouldn't mind if you never got any where because of your dogs faults but i do thinks it's unfair if the judge places someone first because of who they are.  How do beginners get anywhere if it is based on the well known breeders and professional handlers even if your dog is very close to the standards of that breed.  i can understand top breeders having the best dogs because they have the experience and they also breed the pups and keep the best ones for them self, i haven't started showing yet because Nina isn't old enough but the ringraft class i go to has rallies and even on a small scale the judge places who they know first.

Regards Susan

Those well known breeders were once newbies too, so obviously they learnt, bred better dogs which they learnt to present to best advantage.

I consider myself still pretty new after 11 years of showign the breed and didn't start doing any real winning until 2001, because my stock wasn't good enough.

I have sold a dog to someone who won CC and BOB with it at it's first General Championship show, and they had only been to a couple of shows before that.  I have also recently won 2 CCs 9One4 olast summer other in January) with an older late bloomer of a dog I bred and have handled for his owners for the last five years.

Now is he doing better because I have done well with his niece, don't think so as I am not known for showing a male at all.

Hi Brainless, what did you change in your breeding plan to start winning?

Regards Susan

As I don'ty run on puppies but kep the one I chose for good what chenged is my ability to judge how a pup and my my pups specifically will develop.  I know my dogs faults more, and also those of the dogs behind dogs I may wish to use.

I photograph every puppy I ahve bred since my second litter and compare current litters with these and with photos of the finished adults from these earlier litters.

I know for sure that I kept the wrong pup from my first litter, so that set me back until '97 when my second hombred one was born. 

I kept a nice pup that lacked somewhat in substance (she has won out of Mid Limit and has a RCC), and if I was one who could would have run her on, and then let her go when her Dam had her second litter (that which contained the dual CC winning male and an Australian champion), the bitch I would have kept ended up spayed and fat in a pet home :(

From her I bred my first Champion who I held back in the litter hoping for a show home (as I was wanting to space my dogs out more, so planned to keep one form a second litter) fate took a turn and I ahd her back at 9 months.

For various reasons I was hard pushed to find her a suitable mate who ws not already too closely related so wity 3 freinds embarked on importing a male pup (who is now a Champion) and from them have bred a bitch pup who has had a good first year in the showring winning well and now has 2 RCC's.  I can only keep my fingers crossed that she may follow in both parents footsreps, but if not will have to wait at least two years before I can have one of her pups to show (I am up to my limit with dogs, and my 13 year old eldests 3 female generations of ancestors lived past 15).

So after rambling on it is knowledge that has improved :D

The answer is to not go under a 'facey' judge ;) in fact only show under a judge if you respect their opinion ;) :)  that way you'll save money and what you do spend will give you more of a chance with a good dog :D

I understand that Dill but if you are a beginner you dont know which judges are like that.

Regards Susan

I know :( but if you make friends with people in the breed they should be able to point you in the right direction ;) - Who likes your dog's type/breeding, judges to avoid for the same reason and the 'facey' judges ;) :) 

If this isn't possible, listening to conversations at the ringside is useful ;) ;) if a judge is 'facey' you'll soon find out about it ;)

Although I have to say, I've found that some supposedly 'facey' judges can be surprising ;)

Personally I wouldn't go under a 'facey' judge on principle, its a complete waste of time in my opinion :rolleyes: - even if you did do well you'd always be wondering why?

Perhaps this is another of the reasons that it can take a while to gain success in the shows?

i no it can be facey at times but people seem to forget at times that the faces genrally have the better dogs as they have been breeding a while and learned how to handle to dog to its advantage
fiona

Frank
there are some known as *face pickers* but not all are (thankfully) :)

Do the good looking people win more with their dogs? When you say "facey" people,do you mean recognisable faces,or good looking faces? ;)

I didnt realise you could pick and choose your judges.Dont you have to show your dogs under the particular judge who is judging your class on the day?

Hope i'm making sense I've just got home from a party and am a tad tiddly,everytime i lie down the room starts spinning :o

I'm really interested in this picking your own judge thing,can someone please clarify for me :)

Edie
XX

Frank, it takes a few years to get going in any breed you have to put the work in, almost like an apprenticeship.

Handling, presentation, NERVES etc etc that is before you even talk about the dogs.

It is like riding a bike I guess except it takes a lot longer ;-)

You have to be in for the long ride or forget it.   People sometimes are successful from early on but I would think they would even count themselves lucky as most don't really have a true understanding of the breed for a lot of years.  Going to the shows and watching every class you can will help you for sure in many ways. 

Forget the faces thing and what others say you will make your own decisions based on your own awards, bare in mind people like different types of dogs , taking politics out of it you will learn which judges like your "type " of dog.

Make your own decisions and learn from your own mistakes :-)

Just to some it up, a "face" will never handle anything less then near perfect. (In their Opinion!)

Also a "face" is a well known person normally with a lot of knowdlege, they won't put a dog under a judge who doesn't like their dog!

Edie, Picking your judges means not going to a show where you don't like the judge.  You don't pick your judge for the show, but say you don't have to go to Southern counties under judge X who likes A type dogs but do go to SKC under Y who lieks B type dogs!

Think I confused you more, sorry!

Andsome judges jsut love to "put a face/top; dong down" not thorugh lack of merit, but just to prove "they are not facey!"  Showing is a strange old world!  However, with a godd dog, you should do your share of winning.  I am either a complete unkown or not a welcome addition to pug showing (depending on yo9r uspect of new people coming inot a breed)  However, even wiht my very mediocre handling, Mildred pug has been consistently palced at all her Ch shows since her debut in December,  and has done spectacurlarly well at open shows, with Group and puppy group wins - in fact she is half way to her Sh CM title and is not yet 11 months!  Standing ringside 9i and not talking Pugs now) I find those who do most of the complaining about big names/top dogs consistently winning have distincltly inferior dogs themselves, but don;t have hte depth of knowledge to see the difference.  Those who are willi g to learn will watch the top kennels and gradually see why the dogs win all the time, will talk to the top breeders/handlers and learn form them, perhaps using their dogs or buying a pup from them, that way they progreess from novice up the ladder.  the others simply carryin on grumbing and bitching about it being unfair, do nnothing to imporve their dogs and keep on losing!
bye
Gwen

Gwen there are not many judges in my opinion who will put the top winning dogs or well known handlers down, there are some but not many. If a judge judges honestly and its not my dog they put up that is fair enough I'll not enter under them with that dog again but I would with another. As for those moaning about the judges having inferior stock maybe some of them do but so do the well known breeders some time. A lot of judges think Oh this is a big kennel I know this face at the end of the lead this must be the best specimen. Half the time the breed standard goes out the window and as for movement I don't think the judges look half the time. One judge who I went under last year gave my dog 5th in Limit, because I had someone else handling him I gave this judge another entry and lo and behold he got the RCC with the judge commenting to his handler this is a lovely dog I have'nt seen him before. I am not one of these moaning people with an inferior dog I had the knowledge to see I had a nice dog and I was keeping him back. It may not be the same in every breed but this is what I find in my breed. Showing is too expensive now especially if you live north of the border with the distances to travel and fuel costs not to get a fair crack of the whip.

On a similar note.  I was just reading the reports on a dog show in DW today and the judge starts by saying that dentition was a cause of concern and then goes on to rave about a dog that obviously has a missing tooth - but the face fits.

CarolW

When my pups have been placed maybe 3rd or reserve, I have had the judge come and speak and tell they were placed on imaturity, and promptly go on to let me know where and when they will be judging in 6 months time.  To some people this may seem 'facey' but to others it may be that they would like to see the dog under them again at a more mature stage. 

That may be true Kayc, it could also be they are touting for entries in the future. I've known people caught out like this before.

I another thing that I find happens is if you have two dogs in the ring one who is very well know and has won everything, and one who is less well know but is actually better, some judges find it really hard to look past the well know dogs previous wins and go for the other dog.

I have found some judges really facey and if you look down there final line up you can say committee, committee, committee, dogs that committee members have bred and then everyone else after that.

Sarah xxxx

I think you have to give everyone a go to gain your own opinion on judges.  At my first show and my dogs we went best pup in show at a club show.  My dog was not bred by a known person she was bred by us and the stud dog owner no longer shows so we know the win was based on our dog being the best in the judges opinion in fact two judges opinion as one was judging dogs and bitches.

We was also warned of one judge because we were told he was facey and he wouldnt give her anything.  My husband took her under him and he gave her puppy and the following year Best of Breed. 

There are unfortunately judges out there who do judge by who is attached by the end of the lead.  Dont give them a entry but do judge for yourself not other peoples opinions.  It should also perhaps be remembered that a lot of top people move on their not so good dogs.  In the 3 years I have been showing a very well known breeder in my breed has moved on 7 animals and has only actually had one champion in that time.  The dog CC record holder for the breed was co picked by the same person who helped me pick out my first bitch.  In my opinion she is a far better judge of a good dog than the former ;)

Sarah you can also see some judges look at face first then dog.  However these are in the minority in waht I have seen. 

I also find first time ticket giving judges (who of course are being watched) tend to be a little facey, mainly I think, too scared to put down a top winning dog because they are being assesd.  Shame really!

Saying that some judges are said to be facey, but arn't.  Mum was talking to someone who said I woudln't get anywhere in BIS because the judge was facey and there were faces in the line up with me.  I was handling someone elses dog, so he wasn't even mine, and I took BIS!  Facey judge?  Well unless I'm a face.....

Well there are some 1st time CC judges that are honest as my girl's first CC was won under a 1st time judge & she won BOB over the then breed record holder to boot

In some cases I would have agreed with you, but these two judges have been doing the rounds for 20 years, and 1 gives tickets, no need for chasing numbers

LOLOLOL Frank,

As the owner of a new puppy and new to showing the stories that i have heard from people that have been at it for years and years would make your hair curl, and in answer to your question i would say a definate YES :o)

Aha, but are these people the owners of the top winners or of the 'also-rans'? ;)

Roxanne posted .....I also find first time ticket giving judges (who of course are being watched) tend to be a little facey, mainly I think, too scared to put down a top winning dog because they are being assesd.  Shame really!

I agree that is exactly what I mean. And like you said it is a shame really. :(

Sarah xxxx

I think companion dog shows are the worst, we went to one last year and this lady won 1st place in one of the pedigree classes then took 2nd in the rest and out of about 17 novelty classes she won over half of them and came second in the rest. She also took Best in Show. And yes the dogs she had were fantasic, but she was chatting to the judge before and after the show and whilst she was having a break, so it was obvious she knew her well. The show was a fantastic show, they had lovely rosettes, trophies for every 1st prize winner and also a 15kg sack of dog food, so think at all that lady won. It was also a very high turnout with almost at 25 dogs in each class. In my opinion at companion show, which are for fun and don't count for anything, I think that as many dogs as possible should go home with a rosette, alot of people at this show were just pet owners and never even been to a show and they were upset that the judge just passed them by and only looked at dogs that were real show dogs, if it was an open or champ show then yes you HAVE to pick the best dog, but companions are for fun and charity. We went to a companion yesterday and were very pleased to get placed twiced, I think most people had a rosette.

'If it was an open or champ show then yes you HAVE to pick the best'. If it were only as simple as that. Have you ever stood in a class when the judge just doesn't even look at your dog and how they can assess the dogs movement when they are looking everywhere else but at the dog. There are some dogs who should not be in the show ring as they are not of show quality, but I've seen some nice dogs not get a fair crack of the whip. Even the dogs not of show quality should out of common courtesy get the same attention from the judge as there money is as good as anyone elses.

I totally agree with you meredith, I have only ever been to 2 open shows, but I paid my money like every one else but the judge didn't really care for my dog and only spent half the time going over him compared to the others. There were five dogs in my class and when we had finished and the judge was choosing, he went down the line and looked at every dog again but stop at the forth dog ( I was on the end ) and then placed the dogs with me being last. There was a chap talking to my OH while I was in the ring and he said he wished me all the best but I wasn't going to win, he said we have been coming to these shows for years and its the same people who attend ( his saying, not mine ) and that everyone was asking everyone else who I was. So I didn't stand a chance. So I do know how it feels. But sying that the next open show we went to two of my dogs were placed 2nd. Not all judges are the same but there are some that are "facey"

from what I have been told a judge will not place a dog whose breeding it does not know which is why the "faces" are always placed.  At champ shows you often have judges sat around the ring who will spot you as a new comer and look you up to see what breeding your dog is, once they know this then you will get placed.  Something to do with them not wanting to look stupid if they place a dog of "unknown" origin :(

These judges sat around the ring are usually also exhibitors who're interested in the breed as a whole, and like to find out all they can about the competition for their dogs!

I know several people who've judged the breed at Crufts, and they've all retired completely from showing for the year beforehand, not even reading show results, so that they go with a fresh eye.

I dont disagree JG, but this is what I was told :)

:)

Ah but that is very like the horror stories you hear when people learn you are pregnant, now those would make your hair curl.  It is all exagerated.

Is it fair that proper "show" dogs are allowed to compete in companion shows? Why would serious show folk want to compete in these to begin with ?

I can understand people starting off their show careers in the com. classes,but not seasoned showers.

I am so intrigued with this showing thing,there's always a twist around every corner :D

Edie
XXX

The handlers may be seasoned, but not necessarily the dogs they're showing! ;)
:)

I gave up showing my Irish Setters due to the "face" element which is absolutely rife in this breed.  There were three main happenings after which i thought why waste my time and money.  The first one was when i overheard a judge say to her steward "i like that setter but i have no idea who the handler is". the second when i was lucky enough to win the open bitch class but the best of breed went to the novice (nothing wrong in that) but the judge could not get near the dog, it pulled its owner all of the place and then surprise Judge and exhibitor went off to lunch together.  The final straw came when the judge called over to an exhibitor that this time she had remembered to bring the camera with her and low and behold that exhibitor won every class she had entered cluminating in Best of Breed.  I do show at Companion Shows now (although not very often) plus the fact that i do have two lurchers and a rescue boxer as well and i have been lucky enough for my setter to have won a few best in shows but what i like the best is when the judges (some have been well known all rounders and even a couple of breed judges) say to me "she is beautiful why on earth don't you show her at open or champ shows".  I resist the temptation to spout off and just smile with my thankyou.

So unfortunately for me i do think that showing is very facey.  But perhaps it has worked out for the best as i have made so many great friends through the companion shows and have a great day out with all of my dogs (or at least i hope the dogs enjoy it).

I support the charity & as I currently only have my three "proper"show dogs to show I can't enter anything else I don't do much in the pet classes & quite rightly as these are were the pet's should be placed

However I do not travel 100 miles like a certain CC judge with his dogs just get a place at an Companion Show, he rarely shows his dogs at Ch shows but does the curcuit of the limit shows/companion shows with them. It would be so bad but his mainly white dogs are always minging

Sucessful "show goers" would not be able to compete at Companion Dog Shows (CDS), as dogs with CC's, RCC's and/or JW's are not eligible to enter the pedigree classes.

I have not entered CDS for quite a while, partly due to this reason, partly because I think they are fun days out for either novice/newer show goers, those wanting to use them as training for puppies or those with Crossbreeds, and it's so nice watching newer people win.

When I owned crossbreeds, I used to love Exemption shows, and thought all those that showed Pedigree dogs at Open/Champ shows were snobs!!!!!
(and look what i'm doing now, i.e. showing pedigree dogs at Champ/Open shows!!)

I still help out at few CDS, if I support the charities, either by stewarding, taking entries, helping out elsewhere on the day, coz I can't enter any of my dogs.

With regards to "facey" judging. It happens to differring degrees in every breed. Some of the top breeders do have the best dogs, but there are plenty that don't, yet still win. It takes a few years to learn which judges to go under, and which to avoid, but most of the time, you have to give most judges (not all) at least one chance, to find out for yourself.

Kay

I didn't mean to sound like I was a sucessful show goer (and having just read what I previously wrote, that's what it sounds like, sorry!!). It's just that my oldest Beardie is clipped off, no coat, so can't enter him, and of my 2 girls, one has a JW, and the other a JW and RCC, so can't enter them either.
I wish I was a succesful show goer, but i'm not to any great degree, i.e. tickets, champions etc, and i'm certainly not a face! (though I am very pleased with what the girls have won).

Thought it best to just clarify me earlier post!!

lol Kay

I love companion/exemption shows.  My 3 youngest dogs are over qualified for the Pedigree classes so we support the novelties and usually get thrown out :D

I do put the 10 and 13 yewar olds in the pedigrees and veterans, and obviously due to their age don't place very hightly.

What you do of course get by7 supporting these shows apart from fun is the chance to help the potential new shower how to show their dog.

If there were no expereinced exhibitors at these shows how amny people would never progress further by peopl encouraging them to show their quality puppy.

There are a number of people who have been spotted by other exhibitors at these shows to show at higher levels and they are now doing well.