Ok what a title but it's the only way I could think of describing what Max does. Some days Max can be really calm and other days he will react to the slightest noise as if he seems to be a nervous dog. Somedays he will react to the door bell even if on TV and somedays he will not. This can change within hours - sometimes he will react to noises and the next hour will not. Could this be a hormone thing (Max was castrated 10 months ago). Any ideas why Max is so variable - could it be us and he senses changes in our attitudes ?

Hi again Banger,
I had a male lab/shepard mix that was neutered at 4 months. No nervousness...except when I was about to throw his ball the first of a hundred times. Also absolute calm when he "ate" my bucket seat...just felt like it at the time :-) Hey, he was my first puppy many years ago. I didn't know he could do that in less than 20 minutes. :D

My extended family has had many neutered males of various breeds over the years...no nervousness-- schnauzer, rough collie, gsd, doxies. Nope, I think this is just another facet of the "dogMax" to go along with all of his other behavioral issues. Besides, would you really want an excuse for something that you can never reverse?

Good luck on your behaviorist appointment tomorrow. I wish you all of the best, for Max's sake.
toodles

Banger, I have been away and have not read through all your postings about Max. So forgive me if I have the wrong idea but it does seem to me that you are over concerened with his every move or habit, most dogs will paw at you, lean on you, or have a mood change and most of us ignore it moving away it the behaviour does not please. I believe it was you who posted about Max biting and I would agree that this does need addressing as it most definatly is not acceptable but then even harmless habits that are not acceptable should be sorted too. I do hope you do not think I am getting at you but it would seem that the whole relationship between you and Max needs to be reassessed ( I'm sure one word can't have that many s's) think I read that you are seeing a behaviorist soon and think you will find that someone from outside your family will be able to help a good deal, I have found it does. Do hope that you and Max can soon be more relaxed with each other and that you will soon be able to feel happy with his improved behavior. Jackie H.

Well thanks for your reply - I'm just trying to understand Max and get an idea if his problem is dominance and we have seen this behaviourist before. Her program didn't really work with Max - so am trying to get ideas and opinions in the forums. The only thing that has worked with Max was residnetial training but he seems to be forgetting all he has learnt. We are calling the behaviourist tomorrow and the only thing we are really concerned about is the challenging us which he does and mouthing. He has bitten once which makes us very wary but are determined to sort this out. How to treat this confrontation is still a mystery - we've tried all sorts of tactics including banishing to his room for 30 minutes and holding his collar for a long time, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Max seems to have a short memory learning things for a while then forgetting - he seems to reassess each situation every time and come up with an answer. The idea of looking at other seemingly insignificant matters is really us (the family) wondering what we are doing wrong and seeing if anyone else has been in a similar situation and what they did to resolve it.

If we are giving Max the wrong signals we want to know about it as we are determined to get into a well behaved dog before he is over two years old as we have been told this is the crucial age at which Max will be 'lost'.

Banger, I've been watching this thread with interest - I can't remember if anyone asked what you feed Max the superstar ;-).....

We have tried various foods but found the best was Euaknuba. But the vet said this was high in protein (30%) so we changed to one called K9 Natural (12% protein) which is a quick frozen natural food. These two foods were the only ones that didn't make his stools loose. What do other people feed their dogs ?

What you must remmeber with these protein figures is that they are given for 'as fed', so when you might only feed 200g of the dried product (and this would contain perhaps 60g of protein, you'd feed perhaps 800g of the frozen food - which would contain 92g of protein (these figures are off the top of my head, not advice <G>) There is an excellent article in the April edition of Your Dog which explains this much better than me <G> What I am trying to say is that just because a product says it's contains a lower percentage of protein if you're not comparing like with like (ie - dried complete food against dried complete food, you can't make a useful comparison. For the record I feed my 9 year old ESS x BC on Burns complete dried food, and my 2 year old pure bred ESS has recently been transfered to Naturediet which is a less processed food..... Both are made from non GM and human grade meats........

Good point digger. From what I remember he's was on about 400g of Eukanuba per day and is currently on 800g of K9. So although thats still double the weight its still less protein per day. Anyway I'll have a look about and see what info I can find.

Digger thank you so much for your posting re protein levels. I feed Eukanuba and I get fed up with people saying what a high protein diet it is. You have explained it well and are completely correct, I've just got to the point where I can't be bothered to explain the protein levels in Eukanuba and how they are not as high as people might think.

Cheers! :-)

Banger, If you did not find the behaviorist you have already seen helpfull try someone else, you can not 'click' with everyone and nor can Max. Not sure that residentional training will work because, and I'm not trying to be unkind, but you need to be trained how to deal with Max and unless you went with him only half the problem was being tackled. Please don't think that 2 years is the end of Max's ability to learn, it's not dogs, like us can learn to the day they die. True it is easier when young but he will learn if you can just find the right buttons to push. All the best. Jackie H

We are going to try this behaviourist again because she runs a six month backup service but I am always open to advice even if 90% of it doesn't work with Max.

You answered my question whilst I was busy editing it. I can understand you going back to the same trainer as it is not cheap is it, lets hope she can sort it for you this time. JH

Well Jackie free is pretty cheap but we'll see how we get on it's just a phone call because she said she doesn't need to see Max again. Last time he saw her after ten minutes he decided to challenge becasue she stopped throwing tit bits on the floor for him.

Jackie

You took the words right off of my keyboard:D

Banger - I too have followed the tales of Max over the past couple of weeks and I too wonder if you are trying now to do too much with him.

It seems like he has a lot of problems that unwittingly you are probably contributing to and he is very confused. I think a one to one with a good behaviourist is the only way here as there is far too much going on for us to be able to help you. You need to prioritise Max's problems and start to deal with the most influencial problem that he has. I couldn't tell you what that is - hopefully the behaviourist can.

I think the main thing you must do is to persevere. I know you say you have kept trying - but in such a short life you seem to have gone through so much with Max I really do wonder if you haven't given in on somethings a little to soon. I also think one of the key things here is that you too are so uptight about it all and confused yourself. Max will pick up on that. He needs you to be strong and sure.

Again, I am not getting at you as you clearly want to try to remedy the situation - but it is going to take a long time and lots of effort on your part and the rest of your family. If anyone undermines what you are trying to do - it won't work.

I really do wish you the best of luck here - but do try to ease up a bit on trying to deal with all Max's "faults". Concentrate on the most important one and become confident in dealing with that - the others can then follow on steadily.

hth

Pam n the boys

Banger, have just look at your profile to see where you live and realise that you are, well I think you are male, not that it makes any odds but I thought you were female. Just goes to show what thought does. Well back to the reason for me looking at your profile, if we knew where in the UK you are we may know someone who could offer help. A behaviorist who gives up after 10 mins does not seem to me to be up to the job. Jackie H

We saw her initially for about an hour and a half but Max challenged her after ten minutes because she stopped thowing tit bits for him. I'm in the Tyne and Wear area and have been in touch with a couple of local trainers but most don't want to seem to know. We have got the name of John Rogerson and are considering contact him but want to see what our original behaviourist says first. But am always open to suggestions :D

And yes I'm a blokey lol :D

IMO you would not go wrong with John Rogerson and as a 'bloke' may find it easier. Would have thought that in your case a behaviorist would have wished to make a home visit, but then what do I know. Do know how respected John R is though. Jackie H

Well theres behaviourists and theres behaviourists - she know Max has bitten but think a telephone call will suffice. The reason we had to go to her is because she was at the time the only APBC member available in our area. This was becasue our insurance PetPlan only covers APBC members.

As a APBC member she should ask for help from her fellow members if she is out of her depth or is having difficulty with your particular situation - APBC trainers are usualy amongst the best, but like most things it is important that you and she are able to converse and understand one another, and it may be that this is just not possible. You do seem very open about you problems but then one can't always work well with every one, one or two bank managers spring to mind. JH

Well quite obviously APBC's finest is as banger has stated and the results predictable.

Did he say she was the finest? JH

She sounds she has about the same abaility as most of them, just normal, average and a good saleswoeman, but the goods, as allways are overvalued.

If max is anything like callum, you will never understand him! i just except now that callum is a loon and what a behavourist would say were classic signs of a problem, he would throw in a few extras just to be really weird, so dont worry it will all come right eventually, or you will just have to learn to live with him like that.

I honestly think Max is a loon - I'm not bothered about his quirky habits but need to get on top of his aggressive displays. I'm sure that Max has just forgotten how to interact with other dogs and I'm never sure of him if someone says they would like to pat him when out on walks. Recently he has growled at my dad when my dad comes in the room. I don't think it's talking but I have taken to shouting a very sharp NO! because I am not prepared to put up with that behaviour. Like I have said he just has to frighten someone outside and could be in serious trouble - and I don't want that. He seems to take notice when I shout at him but to be absolutely sure am getting him by the collar and holding him for 15 minutes. I am DETERMINED that I will break this habit even if it only happens once a week - to me that is still too much. Anyone got any comments ?

I understand your concerns Banger
We had a dog that used to growl at very young children before we had any (children that is)
We thought when we had our own that he would get used to them, he was 9 months old when we got him but when we had children when he was 4 he could still not be trusted
by the time the baby started to crawl he still had not accepted small children (he was fine with children of about 8 years old)
So our in-laws took him in he wore a muzzle around the children when they were together, but he had a good life & survived to the ripe old age of 15 with now other problems
hope this has not deterred you because MAX sounds a wonderfull dog worth the effort:)

Karl & Jane

Thanks Karl and Jane - yes he's worth the effort but I'm rapidly running out of options and found that I can't ignore this behaviour - I don't want him doing it outside if he passes someone in the street - it just takes one person who doesn't like dogs to complain. So far it's been the only effective method of telling him he is doing wrong as just telling him NO falls on deaf ears. I have been told that pulling a dog away from a situation makes them more fearful/aggressive. Also the NCDL says shouting at a dog can make them aggressive too. Comments any one ?

Banger I'm from Co Durham and have heard excellent reports on John Rogerson. I'm also wondering if maybe a police dog handler would be able to offer you good advice as well, after all they work with GSD's a lot and they need their dogs 100% well behaved.

Just a thought. Lots of Luck. :-)

I agree about the home visit, Jackie :)

Also that a "bloke" like JR may be easier to gel with than a female.....

Banger if the free back up does not work, do try JR - I agree with Jackie, he is very well respected (well you know my opinion of him already :) ) and one of the best.

LIndsay

Jackie, :)

I knew "Banger" was a guy when he talked about "wrestling Max into submission." I've rarely come across a girl/woman who wanted to physically overcome a dog or a horse :D I get the feeling that he's in his mid teens, living with Mum & Dad--perhaps another sibling, and that Max is the first pup he's had. An older bitch used to be in the household, but Banger was too young to train her when she was a pup.

So Banger, am I right or wrong in my impressions? Good luck today...although I already have much reservations about this behavioralist's ability to evaluate Max, just from your past writings. I wish you all of the best.
toodles

Toodles, :)
I did say I had not read all of the posting as I had been away, had not read the "wrestling Max" bit.
If Banger's trouble with Max is as he presents it, I realy do think it needs sorting, not just the dog but Banger too. At the moment, if we are to belive what is said, everything that anyone has ever said about training a dog seems to be being thrown at poor Max, bet he is not even sure he is a dog. If it is true, then I am getting concerened that all this will end in someone getting hurt human or dog. Jackie H

It's a bit early yet, so will return to this later and make sure I've not said something out of place, sorry if I have}

<<<I don't want him doing it outside if he passes someone in the street>>>

Then teach him the command 'Leave it'...works wonders in any type of situation, is far better than the word 'no' which is far overused when it comes to dogs/kids etc. If taught well and given at the first sign (or even better before that first sign) that your dog is about to do any of his 'loony' stuff then lots of behaviours can be avoided just by being aware and getting in there before Max does....also lets him know that you are in control and not the other way round!!:)

Hi Jackie,
I've been following this chain and have even offered some advice that I've learned over the years from AKC obedience training to Banger. He really loves his dog, but I have been mulling around the idea in my head that somehow the family and Max are not a good fit...or at least the trainers who have advised Banger have really been off their rockers. It sounds like inconsistency, rough handling, loud noises (speech & sounds), and over treating, and contradictory behavior have contributed to make an overly-sensitive, assertive, and smart puppy into an unpredictable doggy teenager.

If this was an annoying misbehaving 20 pound terrier, the situation would be easier to control until it was repaired. But it is not. Max is around 38-39 kilos and after experiencing GSD assaults first-hand on my own dogs and seeing others out of control with their owners, I would really love to be able to offer a fixable solution to Banger's problems.

Max has already bitten family members. Banger has said that 80% of the time, the dog is wonderful. I just would hate to see the other 20% result in someone or another pet being seriously harmed which would likely cause Max's permanent imprisonment or demise.

Banger, if you read this, I am not criticizing or badmouthing you, your family, or Max. These are my personal concerns regarding your troubled situation. I mean all of the best in this world for your household.

toodles

(ps, I just use "toodles" kind of like "ta ta" or "bye now"...my actual name is Sara, but there are enough posting on this board without causing more confusion.) But you can call me toodles, if you like ;) :D

I think that the most important thing is consistency. I am sure Max has not been getting this , because mum and dad do different things to Banger. This alone will not hellp to guide any dog, let alone a "big galloof" such as Max. (NO offence Banger, you know i am on yours and Max's side :) ).

Also I get the impression Max has less exercise than he needs, because he can't be let off the lead. This may be a contributing factor to his behaviour.

I reckon too, IMHO, that some at least of his behaviour is due to boredom, he needs to do something and use his brain. This is difficult if he is dodgy with people and does not really respond to Banger's training.

I also get the idea he hasn't been continually socialised, which he needs being a GSD; BAnger, he needs to feel that people are actually nice. Saying "no" or whatever will help, but he needs to look forward to people approaching.

Personally I would clicker train him - but you need to see this, and then he can be clicked and treated for good behaviour such as walking calmly past people, at a distance first, and a toy can be imcorporated too.after a while instead of food. But you do need someone to show you how this can be done.

Please don't worry too much, you are trying so hard, i am sure that either this behaviourist with the 6 month back up, or if not JR, :D will get things on track.

Do you do much training with him generally, or are you not sure what to do? For example, as a matter of course, my dogs have always known useful commands which can be lifesavers, such as Leave it, Down (when running) and also sending them on past people who look nervous. Maybe when you have got to grips with some of the problems, youcan then attend a training club with Max who will help you teach these "life skills" ..... apart from anything else, it's great fun :)

I have no experience of residential training, but would imagine that Max reverting to mouthing again recently, after having stopped it for several months, does mean IMHO that it is the dog/family relationship which needs to be given support and guidance. :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

Great post Lindsay:)... there's not much more anybody could add to that!! (or disagree with)!!;)

Oooooh, I don't know about that,

I'm all embarassed now :o LOL!!

Wonder how Banger and Max got on today, isn't the backup progamme beign put into practice? I know we are all following with baited breath! :)

Lindsay

Flippin 'eck LOL. Well the bad news - the behaviourist told me in e-mail to contact her today and guess what she's in Scotland. So her practice manager has told me to e-mail the problems to her - not very satisfactory. Yes I think we have probably got Max so confused he doesn't know wether he's coming or going. Having had all sorts of advice from trainers, behaviourists and alike this may have added to his confusion because we have tried all the advice given!

I'm a little older than a teenager but thanks :D Suffice to say that after the divorce I had to sell my house and move back with my parents. The dog we had before, Tara, we had from a pup from the pound and I successfully trained her. She was a Heinz 57, but extremely responsive with good recalls, downs, sits and such like - a very friendly dog too - she was left to wander the streets before we got her at approx 12 weeks - something Max has not had.

We've had Max's pedigree checked and know that the temprement on his fathers side is excellent as the person checking knew all of the dogs and their temprements but we're not so sure about his mothers side as most of the dogs after Gt. Grandparents she did not know - so its possible some temprement may have entered this way.

I have also read an article on the real gsd web site (http://realgsd.net) about GSD temprement, drives, thresholds and nerves. I was suprised at the depth the author Joy Tiz went into and have already identified some of the things Max does but will have to read the article again as it's quite Technical.

Anyway got to go - have to write an e-mail to a behaviourist :(

And her book (Joy Tiz's) is quite good in parts too Banger, although as ever, there are bits I disagree with but hey, nobody's perfect (and you thought it was just Max ;) ). The site is good for info too however *word of warning* just in case, they have a message board too but have been known to be a bit 'holier than thou' with their responses to your questions if a) you have a non 'realGSD' and b) you ask what they deem trivial ?'s. In fact, they have a warning on the site about looking up any questions you may have and seeing if they've already been answered in the relative forums to save asking them again:o
It's a great place to 'lurk [$ learn' if ya know what I mean....JMO though! ])

Book ordered - sheesh this dog is costing me a fortune :D

Hi Banger, sorry about today's appt. I was really rooting for you.

Sounds as if Tara was what we in "rescue mutt" side of the house consider a "grateful dog." :-) I've always had a soft side for those types of "pups." They know and appreciate the good life that is given them, especially if they ever faced "death row." Sure, there's problems to deal with , but I've witnessed some type of wierd emotion that they know they now have a good home. I've seen this in cats, too. Strange & unscientific, but it's been there somehow.

I haven't ever seen it from puppies who go straight to a permanent home after being raised iwth a good breeder, just those who've been passed along or in the shelter system. Go figure. Call me crazy, but that's what I've seen.

Oh, sorry about guessing that you were younger than you are. I was trying to somehow find a happy medium of maturity between good writing style, the interminable patience, vs. living with parents & wrestling dog situation. :D

Toodles