If anyone is in any doubt about how a ban on hunting with dogs will devastate the lives of country people,there is a good piece in today's Sunday Express.
I am not particularly pro or anti hunting. In fact, I never gave it much thought at all until recently. It exists and is part of the way of life for a number of British people. I am however, very pro people and, coming from the country myself, country people in particular. It saddens me that whole communities will be virtually destroyed if the ban (and it surely will), goes ahead.
Soon all the villagers will finally give up and move to the towns in search of some kind of future - and this is already happening. Then, the Townies who buy all those quaint cottages will find themselves with nobody to speak to at the weekends except for the couple who live next door to them in London. They won't be able to go to that nice little pub with the roaring log fires, because it closed down through lack of custom. They won't be able to go riding because the blacksmith didn't have enough business and moved to the city to make wrought iron security grilles instead ( for the Townies who are worried about their flats being vacant at the weekends) .
Before long, the City Slickers will decide that, apart from some nice scenery, the countryside isn't quite what they expected. Whatever happened to those country smells and sounds they had heard about? And where is the post office? I mean, you can't even find anyone to sell you a pretty postcard or a stamp to stick on it!
Before long they will tire of weekends 'out in the sticks'. They will sell their cottages and farms to the highest bidder and toddle back to life in the city, muttering that they didn't so much as see a cow or a sheep the whole time they were there.
That highest bidder will probably decide that what the countryside (and his/her pocket) needs, is an injection of industry to bring the people back, and lots of sprawling housing estates for these new workers to live in. And HEY PRESTO!, before you can say " Tony Blair", our wonderful countryside will have disapeared altogether and we will all be Townies.
Now isn't that a pleasant thought?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharon
You have hit the nail right on the head as far as I am
concerned and agree wholeheartedly with all that you
have said. The trouble is alot of these people who
condemn hunting and moan about the smell and noise
from everyday farming activities seem to think that
country folk live on holiday. Well we don't. As you say
without us the countryside will disappear. Perhaps when
that happens the Townies might follow their leader and
try Tuscany.
Jaq and the Elf (who loves sniffing all country smells)

Oh please ! whole communities dying out due to a ban on hunting is rather dramatic.
And what a condecending view of town people you have, and I speak as one who now has neighbours who have moved into barn conversions and yes the odd one does complain about our milk tanker but there are good and bad in all people whether from the town or country and thank goodness all country folk are not as unwelcoming as you two.

Just a thought why was the barn vacant for convertion Had the cows moved to a converted town house:rolleyes:

Actually, I am a townie myself! I've lived in London for the past 20 years, although I make regular visits to relatives in the west country. My thoughts were not intended as a condescending view of town people, nor did I suggest that country people were unwelcoming. It was intended to show a worst case scenario.
The London suburbs used to be a collection of villages, but now they have merged into one long traffic jam with virtually no green bits in between. The area I live in used to be considered 'green and leafy', but not anymore. I realise that everything changes over time and am not suggesting that we stop all building programmes. Obviously people need somewhere to live.
You cannot deny however, that in the headlong rush to modernise everything in sight, the concerns of country people have been somewhat overlooked.

Tballard, if you lived where I do then you would know that the hunt truly is the lifeblood of the village! Last year we raised the money for & then built ourselves, a new village hall. Raised £5000 to help the village school out & thats not even starting on the 9 events we held at the local pub(effectively keeping them afloat when F&M reigned all around them). Out of 246 people living in the village, a poll showed that 28 of them would remain unaffected(financially) if there were no hunting.
I guess its whayt you would call a small rural community & fortunately we are in a part of the country not yet touched by tourist invasion or incommers in a substantial way. Infact the 3 families who moved into the village last year, did so to be nearer the kennels!!!!

Sam it sounds like you live in a really nice village, everyone pulling together :-) I don't even live in a village, just a small row of cottages, a few farms and a post box....lol Nearest village is about 2 miles away so we're not totally cut off

Trouble is people who don't live in these kind of areas don't really know what goes on, how people live, how they look out for each other and how their lives can be affected differently to those living in towns and cities. You can't blame them of course, if they don't live there then how can they know, you just have to hope they listen to the people who do live in these areas.

When I lived in a town and we had hurrendous gales I went and checked on an elderly neighbour, I was the only one to do so :-( However now that I have moved, when our electricity was cut off for a couple of days our neighbours checked we were okay and did we need anything, what with being new etc. :-)

I appreciate that you are fighting your corner but why is the hunt a special case ? what about all the mining villages/ communities who were far worse affected by the closure of all their pits and there are plenty of other examples. The truth is that times change and things move on and like the miners the hunt is history or soon will be. You say many people in your village will be affected but that is not the same as saying they cant exist without the hunt and will have to move. For most people it is a hobby not a livelyhood although there are some for who it obviously is a job and way of life, but as I said they are in the same position, distressing though that may be, as many others have been in and will have to cope with it like others have.
Ted

I don't live there, but I do know how every little bit of income helps small communities survive. I have no trouble believing that some communities would become virtual ghost towns if hunting were banned. It would be a shame to trade one vice for another.Over here in the last couple of years gambling boats have become prominent money makers in towns that weren't thriving anymore because other industries had closed or moved. What could replace hunting? Would it really be a better choice in the long run?

Well, there you go! No sooner had I posted on this topic than there was news that yet more post offices are to close, plus the altogether delightful news that gambling restrictions are to be lifted, thus benefitting? our cash strapped coastal resorts!!!!
Need I say more?
Really MUST get to work now....Bye!!!!!!

Sharon

I don't think the hunt IS a special case. It's just one more issue in a long list that directly impact on certain sectors of our society. And yes, I felt sorry for the miners, the shipbuilders and just about anybody else who has had their livelihood snatched away. What we are creating in this Country, is a nation centred on the large cities and towns, and Heaven help you if you don't happen to live in one. I could bang on about this all day, but I won't - anyone know of a good political board where I can air my views?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong Tballard....the point I am making is that virtually all these people will be affected financially....farriers, horse feed merchant, straw man, chap who services hunt lorry, farmers who rely on the flesh collection to get rid of deadstock (costs about £80 per carcass if knacker comes, whereas free of charge if hunt take it) village store etc. As we dont have mining/ship building here I am not sure of the affect, but if someone loses their livlihood, then their occupation is irrelevant.....its all the same to them.

Agree with your point re losing their work regardless of what your occupation is it's a nightmare and affects more than just the local community, but I do not agree with the hunt. I live in a small rural area (can walk from one end of my village to the other in less than ten minutes) and the hunt is the bain of my life and many of the other villagers lives when it comes through. I know not all hunts are the same. Why not look at drag hunting - just as much fun - could be done as a commercial venture so keeping the interest for those who already hunt and attracting new members - possibly so called "townie" horse owners to come and join - could prove to be very financially beneficial. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but for some of us who live in the country (and always have) the hunt is not a positive and there are people all over the country like me who live in rural areas always have and are anti hunt. Don't mean to offend. Hope no one is going to bite my head off for this one. Also why not take up Le Trec with the horses? Orienteering on horse back - super fun!

KirstyS

Just a few reasons why..........its very fast, much faster than fox hunting(therefore unsuitable for those of a less firm nature/ young age/slow old pony etc). It serves no purpose for the landowner, ie. it doesn't help rid him of foxes,it is not a replacement to hunting live quarry, rather a sport, similar to eventing.
Why would I want to take up Le Trec? I only keep a horse for hunting, I have no desire to go orienteering on him! Also, how is drag hunting going to help the red deer herd of Exmoor population? Or save the local river from the scurge of mink infestation currently wiping out all the ducklings & cygnets?

Sam, How on earth does hunting with dogs help the deer population on Exmore? an experienced deer stalker would do a much better job with a lot less distress to the deer and result is a much tastier carcus as stress taints the meat.
Why don't you hunting with dogs people just admit you enjoy the sport instead of trying to justify it as a means of control, you might at least gain some respect for honesty.
Ted

Dear stalking is hunting, and is normally done with a dog. In fact one person does it with a young Elkhound male! This is the trouble with this bill, it wants to outlaw hunting with dogs, not just fox hunting!

Hi Ted,

Sam in one of the previous postings a while ago did say that she liked hunting. Personally I don't like hunting in any form. But if you do look at things from another point of view you do tend to see another side?

Julieann

Deer stalkers only use dogs to find the deer after they have been shot or to point them out before, the deer are not chased and dragged down by dogs, there is a big difference. Having said that I don't know if the legislation differentiates.
Ted

Oh ted Ted Ted........how can you post things if you know nothing about them? Stag hounds DO NOT CATCH THE DEER, neither do they DRAG THEM DOWN. They do exactly what an elkhound does.............hunt it by scent, then the huntsman kills it humanely with a humane killer/rifle. Neither have I ever seen a pointing Elkhound, but willing to be proven wrong on this one!!!

I beleive some have an affinity for pointing birds, and have been used on Capercilie like the Finnish Spitz. One of Mine often brings me fledglings (unharmed of course), but doesn't retrieve point;less things, though she did scare a shrew to death when she retrieved it to hand!

Seriously I did know a gnetleman in Poland who used them principally on Wild Boar, but one was very good on duck!

The one I spoke of is used on Deeer and is only about 2 to 3 years old, and they have been used for deer stalking in Scotland many years ago!

Unfortunately as they don't get into sportsmens hands these days their hunting instincts are rarely utilised in the UK, but they are most definately there as we have a lot of Norwegian Imported blood, where there is no split between show and work, the dogs have to be a ble to do both in order to get titles in either field.

I would imagine they would be most useful in an HPR capacity were anyone to use them as a Gundog! I understand that historically the odd one was known to go out with hounds!

They arte used to track and indicate the Elk by barking once they have it at Bay! On the track they are meant to be silent, only barking when the animal is at a stand. That is the info I have.

Ted........I DO LIKE HUNTING & HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!
As for hunting helping the deer on Exmoor (correct spelling!) well its simple & if you look up my old post on stag hunting maybe you will understand. Its a proven fact that wherever packs of staghounds have ceased hunting, the herd has died out within a few generations. I do not have the time to re-post my whole article again!

Sam
Well done on being a good speller.
I never suggested that Elkhounds point, pointers are often taken deer stalking and they do tend to point.
When the stag hounds have ceased hunting an area have they been replaced by a stalker (and by stalker I mean a person with a gun who stalks the deer and shoots them when in a suitable position, in season, and an appropriate animal to take out for the continuation of a strong herd.) if they had been then I suspect the herd wouldn't have died out.
I have no inclination to look at any old post you have written as I do not like your attitude, but thank you for not posting it again.
I enjoy a good debate, but you don't seem able to debate amicably.
Ted

"debating" usually involves two opposing opinions, both armed with facts...but in your case you seem to be minus the facts! Thats ok, & I am only too willing to fill in the gaps for you.

Sam

Thank you for biting my head off!! In response to your repsonses not all drag hunting is faster - depends on the drag hunt and I'm sure if you approached them re a younger horse/older horse/frail horse (who really shouldn't be being thundered across the countryside if they are not up to it in the first place!) then they would set a course and speed suitable. I can, however only speak of the drag hunts I am familiar with. I cannot see what benefit the hunt has to the land (a fox can be easily dealt with by a good marksman). However each to their own opinion as I said before - I am not in the habit of shoving my views down others throats nor did I expect to receive the same! If you have no interest in any horse back sport other than hunting then I apologise for trying to find a suitable alternative clearly you can be categorised with other narrow minded persons who are only interested in their own fun! Sorry if this post sounds offensive to you but yours was offensive to me - in future I shan't bother - my final question to you is why post when you clearly don't want anyone elses opinion and clearly feel your opinion is the only one of any worth?

Sorry All and Admin but don't like Sam's tone! Hope this doesn't put any of you off responding to my posts in future.

KirstyS

Having read the postings yes, Sam you do tend to put your views down a little harshly? I know you like to hunt and have your reasons for this. Why not try and see things from other points of view?

Julieann

Kirsty, Sam didn't bite your head off :-) You expected to receive a negative response to your post and consequently read it as such.

Those of us that have been around on this board since the beginning, have become accustomed to Sam's manner of posting. She speaks her mind and is not afraid to call a spade a spade. It is also apparent that because she is prepared to discuss her sport and lifestyle when questioned, that people feel they have the right to attack her. She shouldn't have to constantly defend herself. She has not done anything illegal and has the right to have her say too :-)

Please do not forget that this is a very hard medium to communicate by. The written word can appear very harsh, when it was not intended to be so. Try reading posts, and this applies to EVERYONES posts, three or four times before you respond, and do not automatically assume that the posters is being aggressive!

We have many members who are not afraid to air their views in a forthright and constructive manner, myself included. But this does not mean that those members are constantly in 'attack' mode :D If Sam steps out of line, then she will be taken to task the same as the rest of us.

We all have the chance to learn from one and other here. Lets try and keep an open mind shall we :-)

[email leigh@champdogs.co.uk]Leigh[/email]

I always find it refreshing that people have strong, genuine feelings/opinions and respect those who have enough courage to express them, especially when they may not hold the 'popular' view.

Fiona

Leigh

Hi. :) Just one or two small points - I did not expect to receive a negative response to my initial post they were genuine suggestions and as I am not familiar with Sam's views or any of the others who post on this forum I could not expect any type of response just hoped that maybe my comments may be helpful or spark further discussion - I am fairly open minded and will gladly listen to all views whether they agree with mine or not.

I am not familiar with sam's posting style and also call a spade a spade, however it should be taken on that those of us who have not been here long have difficulty reading between the lines on such sensitive topics. I apologise if it appeared that I was attacking sam - this was not my intention. I am a very open minded person and have never been accused of attacking an individual over a forum before. :o My apologies to Sam and anyone else who may have taken offence to my posting but maybe the more seasoned forum posters could take on board that we learners are not always able to read between the words and maybe the use of your wee smileys etc would take away from the harshness of the reading. :)

KirstyS :D

Hi Kirsty, its never easy communicating by this medium but we all started somewhere and we have all learnt and are still learning as we go along. We are a friendly bunch ... honest :P

Er....it was the rider I was referring to as being old/frail/or nervous.........not the horse, Kirsty!!!!!!
You say you cannot see what benefit the hunt is to the land......well here's a few benefits for starters........they do miles of fencing free of charge, they put in gates free of charge, they plant coverts & copses which give habitat for all flora & fauna free of charge, they do hedgelaying which acts as conservation areas (much nicer than barbed wire too) free of charge, they cull mange ridden foxes & they provide a lamb call out service free of charge, they remove carcasses of fallen livestock free of charge.........just how much more do you want me to list?

As for what I choose to do with my horse, well its my personnal decision & I am 99% sure I wouldn't keep a horse if there was no hunting. However there are lots of people who keep horses for other disciplines, whether its showjumping, eventing or whatever.....thats their choice, and my choice is mine.....thats the beauty of freedom of choice!

Hi Sam,
Thought I'd post and give everyone a laugh-- well, those who don't find it amusing, please don't flame me.

About 6-8 years ago, PETA (you know what it stands for, right?) tried to get Washington State courts to declare hunting with dogs illegal. Not because tracking & shooting the prey was unethical. But because dogs were being cruelly forced to track down fellow harmonious creatures! Apparently dogs are naturally peaceful and humans are submitting them to unethical treatment to use them for hunting.

My husband fell out of his chair laughing when he read about this. He had raised and hunted with Brittanys from boyhood. When their hunting collars had been brought out, they didn't cringe in fear, no, they were happy and excited over the chance to track. :D

I never heard what happened to the case or the bill...personally, I think it was shot down (no pun intended, of course) And no, I don't hunt, nor have I ever. I just thought the case was brought forth by people who did not know anything about hunting dogs :D

toodles

OOPS! :o Little confusion over horse and rider stuff - sorry Sam (incidentally used to know of a drag hunt who did a "golden oldies run" - riders over 50 only!) :D

Everyone is, as you said, entitled to their own opinion and what you choose to do whith your horse is, as you say, your choice, I'm not debating that.

By that token we are all entitled to our own opinions and just because I'm not pro hunt doesn't mean I don't have any experience of the hunt nor that I speak of something I know nothing about and has never affected me or my life. :)

Do not mean to cause offence by my comments but as I must take on board that your opinion differs from mine and not presume because of this that this is an uneducated opinion, equally so should you of mine and others who are so called "antis". (sorry poor grammar hope it makes sense - if not please take it in the nicest possible way! :) ). I'm not saying you have to like it but this is the stuff that makes for good debate. Also can you tell me why some hunts do the things you say to maintain the land while others do not and in some cases have a total disrespect for the land and the land owners wishes (as per my personal experience)? Is there a set of rules for protocol of hunts? (this is something I am not clear on as I don't hunt).

KirstyS
:) :D

I would like to know if it is true:) Do you use Lion's dung for drag hunting
And I am really not taking the Michael;) in asking this question .

Aniseed!

I was just thinking this myself, Ted, when I saw your post. Time does move on,nothing stays the same. As well as the miners there were the steel workers and the ship builders. We all have to adapt and redirect our lives, its part of living.

I have really enjoyed reading through this post. Great Debate:)

Sam.
How about answering the issues raised instead of 'trying' to score points. What gaps ? Have you ever been deer stalking ?
Ted

Good grief! What a can of worms I've opened with this debate. I think everyone should shake hands now and agree to differ. I have to say though, that I'm on the side of the rural communities who will be adversely affected if a ban on hunting with dogs becomes reality. Not terribly PC, I know!

Sharon

This one always does and always will cause a stir! We should all agree to disagree:D

Stacey

P.S; I'm taking my ball in now:D

Hi tballrd, I respect your view that you are anti hunting, but reject your view that a ban on fox hunting will hardly affect people living in the countryside. Where you do think rural people work? Do you have any idea of the revenue that hunting raises in the local community? Many privately owned hunters are kept at and looked after by local riding stables, for a high livery (boarding) fee which keep the riding stables going in the winter. Without hunter liveries many will fold, and that is just one example of dozens of locally owned businesses, employing local people that will suffer. Whatever you would like to think to justify your views, a huge number of people will be put out work or lose their businesses and hundreds of hounds and possibly horses will be shot. The anti hunt brigade wont save any foxes - because they will be culled some other, potentially much more cruel way - but will have the blood of those hounds and horses on their hands and when they pocket their pay packets on a Friday night, or even better at the end of the month - think of those who are struggling to bring up their families on the dole because of them. Have you ever been on unemployment benefit for any length of time? Do you know what its like? Also Point to Pointing - what will happen to that? There will be no hunts to qualify at, so cannot continue in its present form. Many people keep a horse to P to P and they will be robbed of that perfectly legal pleasure too.

Shame I wasn't given the chance to reply to Kay's message before it was wiped, I did try, and was civil, but it wouldn't post. Perhaps its just as well. But I do find it strange that all the dog loving "antis" on this board put the survival of vermin above that of these hounds, perhaps they just dont believe that most of these dogs will be shot, by the man that bred, reared, trained and loved them. Perhaps the antis didn't think - and maybe still dont believe that this will happen. If there were to be mass slaughter any other breed of dog, I think there would be much shock horror discussion here, about that.

Sorry you do have an alternative ,You have drag hunting but as a paper only two weeks ago "stated" no kill no thrill .And that said it all to me.

I haven't got into this argument before but have to just add that I imagine the hounds that have been trained to hunt foxes are not going to be able to go drag hunting. The first whiff of a real live fox and they will be off, no matter how good the aniseed smell is, it isn't like the real thing for the hounds.

Helen

Sorry Patricia but you cannot convert a dog trained to hunt live prey to hunt scent. My terriers come from working stock and I have never worked them. However this hasnt stopped them popping off for a quick hunt on their own (when I say quick I'm lying they're out for hours!)

Hi Bec how do you start them from small puppies to hunt then ,Is it just instinct ?
and if you go on a drag hunt you say the pack do not join in.

Patricia you seem to have missed the point. The packs around today WILL NOT be able to be used for drag hunting. Technically training a pup is easier but this doesnt help the hounds that no longer have a job to do. However, instinct plays a very big part as I said my dogs arent trained yet they'd kill any fox they'd happen upon.

oh right, so you believe everything you read in the press do you Patricia?

Yes Ted, I have been deer stalking many many times........we do it about once a month here!

Sam, isn't the reason the hunt do so much fencing because they are the ones that knock them over in the first place.
WL I think you are making the same mistake many do in assuming that I, as a so called anti, am not a country dweller. I certainly am and have had to stand in our fields to chase the hunt off our heavy wet clay fields because they do not respect our decision to keep off( the reason being they churn up the field), I have had to wait ages when our farm drive has been blocked by their trailers. I have lost many chickens and ducks to the fox and have no objection to them being controlled by shooting. I certainly do not collect a cheque on a Friday although I must admit that sounds appealing. Having said all that if I did live in a town and collect my wages on a friday my opinion would be just as valid. I live in a small village and cant think of one person (and I know a lot of them ) who will be hard done by if there is a ban.
As for the hounds being shot, what do you think happens to them when they start to slow down do you think those nice hunt people take them home and give them a nice fireside to retire at ??.
Ted

Ted we are not talking about the odd hound here and there. We are talking about a MASS CULL. We are talking about the Huntsman putting to sleep THOUSANDS of hounds that they have nurtured over hundreds of years because there is NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE to what they can do if they do not hunt. Now anyone who has ever held a dog as it is put to sleep knows, it is one of if not the hardest things that you will ever have to do in dog ownership. Imagine having to put down your whole pack. That will be horrendous for everyone involved. And before you reply with your stock answer of .... ah but its only the hunts that are to blame for the dogs death, I disagree. The blame lays squarely at the door of those individuals who tampered in matters that they no nowt about. If this was happening to ANY other breed of dog, and lets not forget that the english foxhound has been bred for centuries, then everyone would be up in arms. Peoples silence on this matter is staggering. I hope they sleep well at night when the reality hits home, but I fear that the penny will only drop when the newspapers publish piles of dead dogs. It will be to late by then.