(Sorry Admin if this is in wrong topic, but I am guessing that this problem would lead to a behaveral problem!)

I was just reading a post, and someone said you can 'over do socialisation'. We are getting an Australian Shepherd puppy, but I have been told over again, that you can not over do socialisation with these dogs. How do you know when you are over doing it? Or does it mean that you are trying to show a new puppy too many things at once, rather than actually showing to much? I am very confused now!! Any help would be really appreciated.

BTW I have done a search on this in case it has been covered before, and couldn't find any answers.

Thanks, Natalie

I don't beleive you canoverdo socialisation, you can though overtire a puppy :D

Hi Brainless (I feel awful calling you that!!!)

Thanks for your reply, so it is more about doing too many things AT ONCE or say within a few hours, that would then lead to a tired puppy, rather than actually being able to show the puppy too much over his whole socialisation period?

Thanks again

Natalie

I think that, unless you lead a very strange privileged life :), you won't have the time to overdo it :) When you are doing the housework, cooking, watching a bit of television etc etc the puppy will be resting. As long as you make the time to take it for short walks several times a day and maybe stand and chat to people, watch the children playing etc etc it will be fine. Ask the neighbours to pop in sometimes, enrol in a puppy class, take the pup to visit friends. If you don't have to do housework and are out of the house all day, every day - then the pup might be overdoing it a bit :D

Daisy

I think it depends on the pup.  I know I overdid it with one of mine.  She was very outgoing anyway and it got to the point where she just wanted to say hello to everyone and got very cocky.

This gave me allsorts of problems in the breed ring, it took a long while to calm her down.  Her brother who hadn't been socialised much was much better behaved, but not at all phased by showring.

Next time I would take into consideration the temperament of the pup, if at all shy, I would give loads of socialisation, if bold and cocky, then not nearly so much.

Sandra

I consider the whole point of socialisation is teaching good manners, so a cocky pup would be taught how to behave and contain it's enthusiasm.  Learning to sit quietly wehn approached, not jumping up etc.  Can't see how restricting socialisation would impriove a coky pups behaviour, only training can do that. or maybe I ahve misunderstood?

With my won pups they come everywhere that they can with me within reason and their ability to walkk there (I don't drive).

As I don't have access to a car I take pups on bus journeys and any opportunities offered for trip with freinds.

I agree with Brainless I don't see how you can possibly overdo socialisation.

Lack of control is another matter.

Believe me, you can overdo it.  I took her everywhere with me and unfortunately as you all know with a young pup everyone wants to say hello to her.  It is near impossible to 'control' a very young pup when they are that bold.  Yes, the control came later and now I don't have a problem.

What I am saying is I would have 'controlled' the situation much better in hindsight.  I would only have taken her meet people I could have prepped in advance not to stroke her until she was acting calmly.  Unfortunately, the high street was not the place to do this.

When I arrived at my first show, her breeder told me she was oversocialised and talking to other breeders since I can see that is where I went wrong.

As I said, it depends very much on the pup in question and the breed, mine is a very excitable breed.  My other dog, different breed, different temperament, I had absolutely no problems with socialising in exactly the same way.

We will just have to disagree there as I belive you do have to control the pup no matter that people all try and greet it.  I get this wih my dogs all the time as they are fairly unusual, sometimes walks last a long time, and a lot of it is standing still chatting to people about them.

I agree you can ovestimulate a pup, but then that isn't necessarily socialistion.  The calmest pups are most often the ones that have the busiest environments and learn to swith off and tune most of it out.

Hi Daisy

Thanks for that, all of the rsearch I had done said to socialise socialise and socialise again, and then I heard of over doing and suddenly got stuck!

BTW If I didn't do the housework, no one else would!!! OH works very long hours at times, he does the cooking I do everything else. But I will take the puppy for short but many walks a day, we have schools, horses, sheep, cows, chickens, geese, even a peacock up the road a bit, so hopefully our puppy will try and control his hearding instinct, and soon be used to them all!

Thanks for everyones replies they are all helpful, and different ways to aproach socialisation if another doesn't work out.

Nat

Good luck - we love our Aussie, she's such a character and is so loving. Training is really worth it - she loves classes and agility :)

Daisy

Whenever we say to people that we are looking forward to the training, from house breaking and basic obidience to tricks and agility, they always say "oh thats the worst bit, it is much better when they are trained."

I must be wierd then because I am really looking forward to it! Even though we aren't getting the puppy till October-ish, and then we will have years to train him, I am already thinking, "what happens when we run out of things to train him to do?!!!"  LOL

Nat

There is no such thing as running out of things to train..........

My dog is coming up for 5 and we are still training new things.........

That is very heartening!

Thing is with the Aussies is that they are very easily trainable and will do anything to please you, so I keep imagining teaching him to sit, down, come, roll over, beg, say hello, etc. in a few months and then having nothing to do! It is stupid really because I know it won't work out like this, I know with other things we have done (biggest example having a baby), you have an idea in your head what things will be like, and then it always is soooooo different to how you imagined!

I like having my head in the clouds, and then being brought back down to Earth with a bump, LOL.

Natalie

All in one hit Douglas met other dogs, chicken, pigs, donkeys, people, Lamah's, Budgies, Falcons, lambs, sheep, horses and not forgetting wolves all in one hit. He didnt seem fazed or that interested to be honest.

How old is Douglas now Emma? Does he seem bothered by them now?

It was me who mentioned overdoing socialisation.

Probably not explaning myself very well as i am usually in a rush these days and can't type fast enough! :rolleyes:

To clarify, what i meant was that it's easy to be so keen to socialise and habituate that a puppy can be frightened by too much, too soon; unexpected loud noises, overbearing pushy people, hordes of schoolchildren all rushing to say "hallo" to the baby puppy, and so on. This obviously applies very much to sensitive puppies.

Some puppies will not be bothered whatever is thrown at them :)

If a puppy is actually scared by an aspect of active socialisation, it *can* do more harm than good in that the owner may have unwittingly created a pup who is scared of schoolchildren, etc.

Again i'm in a rush (sorry!) but hope that explains things more.

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay, I tried to go back and find it but forgot where I had seen it!!! :)

It does make it clearer thanks, and it started a bit of a topical debate so no harm done!

Thanks again Nat

But Lindsay that is not "overdoing socialisation" is it? just exposing your dog to inappropriate things..............

Natalie, Douglas is 10 weeks now. Very laid back to the point of being unconcious sometimes. Nothing seems to faze him and has no interest in exploring things any further than sitting and watching for a while. At the moment anyway.

Ahhhh!! How lovely! I should imagine you are right though, it won't last!!

it depends what you are doing. i like to carry my puppies everywhere so they see everything!
howver i dont believe puppys shuld be allowed uncontrolled play with other puppies & although i allow other people to touch & talk to the pup,i dont allow them to do much playing or anything as thats the relationship that i want to have with the pup!

I can see why you say about not giving to much freedom Michelled, you have certainly given me more to think about!

Thanks, Nat

its not really no freedom,its about me being "the most important & FUN thing" in my puppies life from the very start!!!!

Sorry Michelled, I didn't mean no freedom, I meant like you said, not giving him (or the other people/puppies) free playing time. I was agreeing with you, not trying to make it sound bad :D

lol thats alright! ;)

I think (from what I have read, still no actual experience :( ) it is very important, especially with Aussies that they know you (and the rest of the family) are all higher in the 'pack' than them, and that you (and I) as the 'alpha males!' need to keep that reinforcement up at all times. The restricted play is one of those ways, as you said it shows the pup that you are the best thing in their lives, ther is no one higher than you. Though putting this into action, rather than spouting off what I have read may be more difficult!!! :D

i THINK its a more of a stubborn thing & a need a "reason" to do it with aussies i think! they are "strong" dogs but not really dominate, (observer & fan only no "actual experince)

I thought it was because if they weren't shown who was the 'alpha' then they would take on the roll themselves, and things like growling as you approach their dinner or bed, and basically not doing as they were asked, would start to crop up. May be I'm wrong, I have no experience either - yet!!!

personally,i dont believe in the dominance thing really. my dogs have very few rules in my house & are a total joy to live with. i can do anything with them.take them anywhere etc etc.
im fair & consistent but they have freedom to go where they wish,on the furniture etc etc.
im sure a aussie person will come along soon & say exactly how strong you need to be ,BUT from what ive seen they are a lovely breed, but doi seem to need a rreason to do stuff & they arent a breed to be bossed about (id say) or id think theyed prob go on strike!

From what I have heard there isn't going to be much choice as to whether or not they come on the furniture! One minute you are sat there with OH, the next you have a dog on you!

I have heard of what I would call over the top methods to keep yourself at the top of the 'pack' such as asking the dog to get up out of the way instead of stepping over him, or always making sure you go through the door before he does and things like that, but I think as long as the dog will do as you ask, and is also WANTING to do as you ask, then you don't have a problem. To me getting a dog to do as you ask, is a matter of good training, not who is higher up the pack. JMO

Nat

youll be fine ,you have the right attitude!!! :)
just dont be scared to ask! ;)

I did ask, this is he best responce I have had yet from one of my topics!!!! LOL :D

Personally I don't like the dogs on the furniture :) It's not difficult to teach them not too, as long as you are consistant. You must decide from the start whether you want to allow it or not. It's much more difficult to teach them NOT to jump on the furniture later on once you have allowed it :) They don't HAVE to sit on the furniture with you - Tara is quite happy to lie on the floor by the sofa/chair. Bramble wasn't allowed to jump on the furniture to start with, but now is allowed up IF we give him permission. Neither would ever jump onto a chair/sofa if we weren't in the room either :)

Daisy

Hi Daisy,  I agree with you here - my dogs have never been allowed up on the furniture.  I do this as a kindness to them as much as anything because surely if they are allowed on my furniture, they won't understand it if they get told off for trying to climb on someone elses!

That is a very point Annie, :O even more to think about ;)

As I've only got experience of one Aussie - don't take this as a breed standard :D Tara went throught the usual puppy things - she threw awful 'hissy fits' for about 2 weeks, chewing us like something demented - but it stopped as soon as it started. She enjoys training and has been fairly easy to train. We stuck to rules about not going upstairs or on furniture and she soon responded and if occasionally she did wrong, a look from us was usually enough to make her jump down. She is a delight to have in the house now, she is nearly 3. Our main problems with her centred on 'strangers' and so the issue of lots of socialisation is vital :)

Daisy

Hi Daisy,

We have leather sofas, that were quite expensive, so we don't really want the dog to go on it, we will try and keep him down, but then I like my cuddles so if hubbie is out late at work, I know I will let him up, and then I can't really blame the dog for jumping up! I think I will have to get some nice throws and put up with it!! But we won't let the dog up stairs, the last thing I want is him sleeping on any beds but especially our sons!

Natalie

Basically you can have "any " rules you want. if you dont want them on the furniture,dont let them. but be consistant from the start!!! :D. my piont is that i dont think letting them on the furniture would make them dominate! ;)

I have read Michelled that if you let them sit at the same level as you, they (I don't know if this just relates to Aussies or not) think they are same level as you! But this article I was reading then went on to say, never sit on the floor with them, as that would again amount to you both being on the same level, but if the dog isn't allowed up and your not allowed down, how are you ever supposed to give him a proper stroke and a cuddle? We had dog's as we were growing and they weren't allowed up on the sofa, mainly because there was only 5 seats and 7 of us! But we would sit on the floor and have a good play and stroke. The only time we had one of our dogs on the sofa, was when he had slipped his disc in his back, and was paralysed, then none of us minded (we let him go to RB about 4 days after he did it :( )

yes thats what people used to say,some still do!!!! personally i dont believe it!!!!

There's loads of threads on here about the whole pack thingy - I used to follow it and wouldn't dream of it now :D

As long as a dog will do as you ask, don't worry about alpha roles, etc :)
Best IMHO to use something such as NILIF (ie, make the dog work for what it wants best - an example would be, asking for a Sit before the lead is put on)

You may find a bit more info at www.dog-dominance.co.uk

Lindsay
X

I agree with the Nothing in Life is Free bit - my dogs have to sit before having their lead on, and also before I take it off, before they eat they 'wait', only for a few seconds, til I say ok, etc.  I have got two Aussies, both completely different in character.  The older one aged 3 is completely laid back and loves everybody, has always been the same. With the younger one (14 mths) it seemed to be a battle of wills from the start - he would really screech if he couldn't get his own way, as well as struggle physically, so I have had to be really firm with him in the way of not giving in to him and making sure I had the last word so to speak!  He no longer 'argues' with me about things like brushing these days, but neither is he an easy dog - he doesn't like any other dogs, and he's very reserved with strange people.  Now both my dogs have been socialised exactly the same, from 8 weeks, and I think it is sooo important, but don't forget each has their own character as well.  If my one Aussie wants to be friendly that's great, but I also respect the fact that the younger one doesn't like others in his space, so I don't force him to try and interact.  He goes to ringcraft which has been invaluable, and also to obedience which he absolutely loves!  I have found with both that they learn really quickly, are happy to learn as long as you keep it fun and don't lose patience, and they do think for themselves as well!
  Hilda

Hi Sunbeams :D

I will be training them to say 'please' and 'thankyou'.  I think there is nothing nicer than a polite doggy!

For us the only bit we are a litle bit worried about is the dog being VERY reserved with strangers. We go down south quite a bit to see my Mum and other family members, so the poor little thing will have to put up with god knows how may people all at once, and although I can tell the adults to leave him alone a bit, one of my nephews will be all over him. We are going to crate train (I don't really want to start a debate on this though!!) so we will take his crate so he can have some time out when he wants. I was speaking to a lady on here a couple of days ago who has some knowledge of our breeders lines, and she says their dogs don't tend to be overly reserved (even for an Aussie!) so this has eased us a bit. Also if the puppy can get used to all of the people (and the fuss) I have heard that Aussies will great people they know like old friends, so hopefully this will happen, fingers crossed!

Natalie

they are great dogs! when i saw my friends pup at 10 weeks he was very reserved ......for about 5mins then went crazy 4 me!!!!so dont worry!

I don't think 'worried' is the right word, it is more too much thinking I think!!! If the dog doesn't like all of the attention, he can go in the crate, but then if he doesn't come round, there is no way I would make him be in the crate all day, so the only answer would be to either, to not stay at Mums for so long at a time, or not go at all!!!

just sit on the floor with a little soft ropey ragger & PLAY PLAY PLAY! that is my best advice!!!!!!!!!

Hi Natalie,
      Yes you're right! I've found with mine that once they do know someone they remember them all right, and go absolutely mad wanting to say hello (meaning: leap all over them!), and wiggling those butts!!
  It is a good idea to have a crate for time out though - our younger one has a crate, and when he is in there he is just ignored and settles down.
  Hilda

Hi Sunbeams :D Your name always makes me smile!

Hopefully this is what will happen with our pup! It is like I said, I think I am just thinking too much!!! LOL

Nat

Hi Natalie,
     I know what you mean, you want to get everything right before you get the pup - I'm sure you will be fine, just socialise from day one, and get the basic training in whilst young, and as you go along you will soon learn what sort of character your dog has got.  My 3 year old was always ott friendly, but I have to say that wasn't always a good thing either!  He used to think he could just race up to anyone for a good fuss, and used to bop people on the nose in excitement - which sometimes hit hard even though it wasn't meant to be nasty or anything! (he knocked someone's crown out, and someone else's glasses off their nose).  So until he learnt not to go to just anyone, it was a case of putting lead on until past.  In that way I have found the more reserved dog better, as he's not bothered running up to people!  So they're all different, and you just have to treat accordingly.  Who is your puppy from, just wondering?
  Hilda       PS  Sunbeams is the name of my childcare business!