Hi All

I am new to this site, and can't beleive how great it is !

I wonder if I could ask for advice from people who have an epileptic dog.

We have a 3 yr old Italian Spinone male called Ollie, who is the apple of our eye (along with his 3 other 'sisters'), totally spoilt, and worst still, definately knows it !

In January he had to have a small operation done at our vets, just to remove a whole nail from each of the front paws, as they had grown hollow, and therefore got infected due to dirt getting inside the core. This all went as planned, and he came home with two bright pink bandages, and a sorry smile.
He was prescribed Rymadil for pain relief, which were administered by us twice a day for 5 days as directed.

The operation was on the Monday, and on the Sunday morning he had the 1st fit, about 6.30am, apart from us being taken totally unawares (what do you do when you know nothing about dogs having fits) anyhow, luckily he was laying at the bottom of the bed, and his feet were thrashing against the pine box at the foot of the bed, because that's what woke us - he was foaming at the mouth, had weed everywhere, was paddling like he running as if his life depended on it, and was totally 'gone'. This lasted about 3 minutes, although have to say if anyone had asked me before, it was 30 minutes or an hour at least !
He slowly slowly came round, and tried to get up, though we did try to let him lie for a while to get his bearings. After about 20 minutes he did get up and go outside, where he did another big wee. By half an hour, he seemed over the worst, though cried a bit as I am sure he was apprehensive about going to sleep.
We rang the emergency vet when he was having the fit, she said that by the time she came over to us, he would be over the it, told us we had done well, and said she'd see us at 9 at the surgery.
We were then told, that this may well have been brought on by the operation stress, and it most likely wouldn't happen again.
Have to say we were very reassured, and relieved.

A month later it happened again, same time, same procedure of fitting. The vet said he was epileptic, took some blood, and said for us to keep a diary for them to study the regularity.
The blood tests came back okay (They checked liver and kidney functions, and the kidney was 'up' a little but nothing to be concerned about?) BUT WE ARE CONCERNED !

The 3rd one happened yesterday, at about 11am, in broad daylight. Ollie came to me, he was shaking, which I thought weird (thinking back now, I wonder if I should have noticed other earlier 'symptoms' - like?????) 10 seconds after he came over all shakey, we was contorted on the floor, his front legs went 1st, then his back, his jaws were like wide open, eyes totally glazed over. He was weeing everywhere just because his body was thrashing about on the way to the floor. Soooo scary to see this in broad daylight, It was the most terryfying thing to see my dog like this.
He was like this for about 2 minutes, went through the running phase, then slowly, slowly came round, and was very disorientated.
We have 3 other spinone girls, 8,6, & 2-(Ollie's sister who we rescued age 1)and I had to put them out as they too were very worried about what was happening. He eventually was back to normal, 30 minutes later, but very tired this time around (is that because it happened in daylight???)
That was yesterday, and to our horror, he had another fit 3.30am this morning, the same as the other 'early morning' ones.

We saw the vet 1st thing, who drew blood again, which they will check, liver and kidney functions once again.
We have come home with some 'supplements' called Epitaur 500, to be given 4 a day (he weighs 42kg)
I understand these are a starter for trial before they go as far as the phenobarb's - does anyone have these capsules, do they work ?
I would love for anyone to offer their advice, on what has/ or hasn't worked for their dog, as we are at early days, and so do want to do what's right.

I am also worried about the fact that I work 4 hrs each morning, and if that fit had happened when I wasn't here, with the other 3 dogs able to intervene - how does that affect the fitting - anyone dealt with this ?

We read on a site you should offer sweet things after a fit ? ice cream, digestives ? is this correct.
Also we read that the protein in the diet should be very low ? what's the best diet/food to feed to control this - HELP !!!!! We are about to start Burn's Fish & Brown Rice currently, instead of chicken.
Any advice is vey gratefully received, sorry the story's so long, but thought it best to give all or nothing !

Thanks :-)
Shelley (and Ollie)
xxxx

Hi Shelley,
I'm so sorry to hear of Ollie's problem. I had a bitch who started fitting following surgery - my vet tells me that it was most likely triggered by the sedative (ACP) that she was given; apparently this has been implicated as a trigger many times.
At her worst stage my bitch was fitting several times a day, so she was put on a fairly high dose of phenobarbitone, which after several months dosage-tweaking stopped the fits completely, and we were able gradually to wean her off them. She's been fit-free for 7 years, and medication-free for three.
I was advised to put her on a low-fat diet, because the meds can affect the liver, which is the organ that deals with fats, so it's best not to put it under too much stress.
Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks very much for your reply, It's so nice to be among people who know what you are going through, it's so scary to go through this alone, especially this early on so I am more than relieved to discover this forum with kind dog lovers like you to get info from.
My husband is more than convinced that it was the sedative during the op that brought it on, (he was perfectly healthy prior) so I think you could be right there.
Glad to hear your doggie is doing so well, it gives us great hope we can get there too.

Thanks a million
Shelley

No problem! Having been there I completely understand what you're going through. Please be reassured that it's far worse for you as helpless onlookers than it is for Ollie, who when he fits is deeply unconscious. When he comes round he'll be disorientated and may well have a headache, so keep him in a quiet, darkened environment for an hour or so if you can.

Regarding your other dogs, they may or may not be a problem (sorry - not a lot of help!). I was lucky in that my others were only mildly interested when their friend was thrashing on the floor ("she's being awfully silly, mum"), but it's not unheard of for dogs to be so disturbed by a 'fitter' that they actually attack. Until you know how yours react it would be sensible to keep Ollie apart from them when you go out.

There's a lot of info on canine epilepsy on the net - google will turn up masses of sites. It's not as unusual as you might expect. I don't think there's a single breed that's never had a fitter, and of course crossbreeds and mongrels are affected too.

Hiya

Thanks again for your note, there are some very kind people around on this site, it's very comforting.

He does seem very restless after a fit, and cries a lot, for what ? we just don't know !
This morning, when we were getting ready for work, he was crying (wingeing?!) so much, like he didn't want us to go and leave him, I did stay an hour later today before I left - and was back at 1 - thing is, I was just concerened in case he knew or felt another fit was on it's way. It's madness how we pick up vibes, or at least we think we do ! - so far nothing has happened- fingers crossed

I did think of sperating the 4 when we went out, but I think it will cause more stress to be honest, they are all very close, and have the run of the house, so they are not all in the same place at any time. I know it will be more stressing if I put a gate between them, he'll just climb it for one !!!!
I do know that one day it will happen when we are out, I asked the vet about possibilities, and she said that Ollie would be oblivious to anything around him during a fit. Tiva, his sister is the one I would be concerned about, she frets for him if he goes out without her in the car (like yesterday's visit to the vets) you'd think he's been away for weeks by the greeting she gave him - !
I wonder if it would freak her out if she saw him fitting, but guess i'll find out one day.

Right, off to walk them all now - IN THE RAIN ! shame there's no wellie boots for dogs !!!!
Shelley

Sorry to hear about your dog :(
The site below has a lot of info & run by Jean Dodds, an expert on canine epilepsy, you might find it helpful :)
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine,

Wow, this is a great link - Thanks so much for this - I will sit down this evening and go through it all !
Many Thanks for your note
Shelley

P.S Hope Spain is warmer than here - we have rain AGAIN !!!!!

Hello Shelley,

It's possible Ollie has had a reaction to the Rimadyl. See: http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadylfr.html

These are some of the side effects associated with Rimadyl:

loss of appetite
change in drinking habits (refusal to drink or increased water consumption)
unusual pattern of urination, blood in the urine, sweet-smelling urine, an overabundance of urine, urine accidents in the house
vomiting
diarrhea
black, tarry stools or flecks of blood in the vomit
lethargy, drowsiness, hyperactivity, restlessness, aggressiveness
staggering, stumbling, weakness or partial paralysis, full paralysis, seizures, dizziness, loss of balance
jaundice (yellowing of the skin, mucus membranes and whites of the eyes)

At the very least, you need to detoxify your dog.

Hi

Thanks for your note....
Now you do have me thinking here, just because of the scene of events which originally led to the first fit. He was perfectly healthy prior as I said before, and linking the two ourselves, never used Rymadyl again after the fit happened, and never ever would again.

He did have strange reactions to the drug??, in that he would go very quiet and restless sometimes during the 5 days he was on them, plus during the time he was taking it, twice he was asleep and his penis was right out - as silly as it sounds, so much so it was as if it was going to explode, poor thing he was very upset as he was not sure what was happening.
We rang the vet at the time as we were very worried, she advised a packet of peas wrapped in a teatowel, near the area but not on it. It did the trick, and so far it hasn't happened since.

You said in the list about sweet-smelling unrine, well, that's exactly how his smells when he wets himself during a fit, it's almost overpowering it's that sweet.
Plus he is certianly in a pattern of change as far as food is concerned, he used to have 2 meals a day - one 7am the other 5.30pm, now he dosen't want the morning feed, so I give him it when i'm home from work at 1, sometimes he eats it, other times not.

I will research into detoxing Olllie, however, is it too late now ? as it's 2 month's since the Rymadyl were adminisitered to him.
Thanks again for your help and advice
Shelley

Hi Shelley
I`m sorry to hear about Ollie it mus be so distressing for you. You maybe able to get some reasurance from the vet Christina Hill who is on the Spinone Club Health Sub Committee. Contact Elaine Kirkham the co-ordinator on  elaine_kirkham@hotmail.com  and she should be able to put you in touch. Christina is also a spinone owner.All info given is completely confidential. Have you been able to contact the breeder and let them know about Ollie they maybe able to shed some light for you.I personally have no knowledge of Epilepsy but I have read many times that normally very good tempered dogs will attack a fitting dog,so as previously advised better to keep him separated from his sisters when you are not there, lets hope he gets over it soon and has just been a reaction to medication that will eventually work its way out of his system.

Hi Tiggey and everyone

Thanks firstly for your kind reply, I will certainly send an email to Elaine and ask her to put an email through to Christina, it's really nice to see that a Spinone owner may have some answers too.You people are so great .....
I have been in touch with the breeder, and she said none of his brothers or sisters are currently affected, and will check out the parents, she has his Mum, but not Dad, so will let me know.

Bad news, today Ollie had another fit, again the exact same thing as on Saturday morning, I just go in from work at 12.30 and was making a sandwich when I heard him hit the floor, and then it started, same procedure as before. It still makes me cry watching him, you feel so damn helpless.
I did notice that he was a bit wingey when I got in, and was barking (not like him at all) as though he was relieved to see me, so I wonder if that's a warning to look out for next time.

He's gone right off food this last 2 weeks, I have tried adding stuff, even though I know it's wrong, but we just want to get him to eat something.
Today after his fit he was looking for his food, so I put it down and he ate every bit.
I guess this is all part of epilepsy. I am in the process of changing from Burns Chicken & Brown rice to the Fish & Brown rice as it's lower in protein. I have read a number of times that a low protein diet is beneficial ?? but dont know if anyone else can back this up thorugh feeding experiences ?

So, will all that in mind, we are off to the vets again this evening, I phoned them and they say 2 fits in 5 days is quite a lot, and want to check his heart etc, and see where we go from here. Does anyone have advice as to their experiences as to what happens next. I know each case differs, but I want to know when the vets will say he has to have the phenobarbs (i'm terrifeid of this drug, read lots of bad stories - and good, but feel it's a last resort?????????)
The vet mentioned havingn MRI scan - it's costly, but Ollie is insured. Anyone had this done - what happens - what do they search for ?
Thanks and sorry for a million and one questions, but I know the right people are here, so if you can offer advice please HELP !!!!
Shelley & Ollie x

It's never too late to detoxify, do a search for Rimadyl on the www.first4pets.co.uk website...

Hi Shelley,

I've no experience of epilepsy in a dog, but have 2 Spins myself, so just wanted to wish you luck with Ollie and I hope you can get him stabilised soon :)

Good luck!

Lesley

Hi Shelley
I have a friend that has experience of epilepsy in her own spinone, and she would be more than happy for you to contact her so she can tell you of her experiences. She isnt a member of CD but is called Kim and can be emailed on bonario@lineone.net.
Hope this helps
Abby

Hi Abby and Lesley

Thank You so much for your lovely notes, it's really nice of you.
Hope your Spins are doing well Lesley, aren't they just the best dogs EVER !

Abby, Thank You for telling me about your friend Kim, I have just written her an email, and copied my post so she can see what has happened to Ollie, I just hope she isn't put off by having to read it all !!!!!! Might need a few cups of tea prior (or a G&T!!!!)

As a little update.....
Saw the vet last night and she checked Ollie over for me to ensure all was okay, basically she says now is the time to start the phenobarbs, on a low dose to see how it works.
1st though, she has asked me to contact our insurance co. to gain approval for the MRI scan. She said if they pay out for this it can be beneficial to see what's really going on.
She also said that in case we get a quick approval and the Animal Neurolgy hospital are able to see him within the next 2 -4weeks, we should wait to administer the phenobarbs as this will interfere in their readings on the MRI.
Today I got approval to go ahead from our insurers, and Sarah our vet booked the MRI for 12th May - not as quick as we wanted, but we can wait on a cancellation, or if the fitting gets worse/ or continues to be frequent, we can ask for an emergency appt.
I am told by the vet that this scan will be in mid/end £1000's so I am sure it must show up some very detailed information, and soon we can maybe know a lot more.
If nothing shows, and I am aware that the whole reason it's called 'idiopathic' epilepsy, is because it sometimes stems from nowhere.At least we can rule out other nasties....
I am concerned about brain tumours, but will just take one step at a time.

Thanks to you all for you kindness, I will of course keep you updated on what happens. It's a such a good feeling to know I can write this all down, and others can help me.
Shelley & Ollie xxxx

Hi Shelley
As an owner of 3 spinoni, I would do anything I could to help a spinoni owner that needed it! I do hope you get to the bottom of Ollie's problem. Please keep us informed of developments and all the best with the MRI. Kim will be very helpful to talk to, having been through the same situation.
Abby

Thanks Abby and Lesley

They are THE best dogs to have around, so much fun and lots of naughtiness - wouldnt have it any other way!!!
My husband just came in with fish and chips ! needless to say that having turned his back for a second half the cod was gone !
Wonder who did that !

Will keep you posted I promise....
Shelleyxx

Hi Shelley,

Yes, they are fantastic dogs :D  I can't imagine ever having another breed having had Spins!  I'm glad that the insurance company have given the go ahead for the scan, which will hopefully make things clearer as to what is happening with Ollie.  It must be a relief to know he is covered and that you don't have the additional burden of vet fees too. Try not to worry too much about what the scan might show, but that's easier said than done I know :)

Fingers, toes and Spinoni paws are crossed here that things go well for him :) Please keep us posted and good luck!

Lesley

Hi Shelley,
So sorry to hear about the fits your dog is having .
My advice to you would be to definitely have the scan done. My rough collie started having fits when he was 7 yrs came on for no apparent reason one day luckily like yourself we were insured and were advised by our vet to have the scan done by a specialist in epilepsy in dogs it was discovered that he had had a brain haemorrage and the fluid was putting pressure on his brain causing the fits it was completely undetectable without the scan he was put on phenobarb and predisolone to take the fluid away they gradually weaned him off the pred but he still has the pheno twice a day he is now 15 yrs old and been monitored all his life but we still have him with us eight years later.
When he has the fit he wont recognise you and can be very unpredictable, when he comes out of it I was advised by my vet to move him into a darkened quiet room with plenty of water to sleep it off gently talking to him to reasure.
I really wish you and your dog well and hope this gets sorted out speedily because it is a very worrying and traumatic time for you all.

good luck

Roni

Hi Everyone

Well today has been horrible to say the very least.
Ollie had two fits last Wednesday one after the other, and after a trip to the vets, we were told that he needed a lot of tests, liver, kidney, bile etc etc, before the MRI on 12th May, so it would be beneficial if we didnt use phenobarbs prior so we dont get disturbed results.
All was well after the two fits had passed, and he recovered very well, yesterday (Tuesday) he was back to being his normal mischievious self (HURRAY!!!!) I was sooo happy to see him being naughty again.

This afternoon, he had a fit whilst upstairs, and that lasted quite a bit longer than the others, and he didn't come round like he usually does.
He went into another, and was delirious to say the least, then went into another, I think it all lasted about 6-7 minutes maybe more actually, and during this time I rang the vets, who advised to get him to their surgery pronto, which we did.
They gave him valium, as he was soooo restless and pacing and trying to get out of their door by scratching it (he's usually very calm and unfazed by anything) he was not properly back with us even in the car,, and in the vets after she administered the valium, he went into another fit, albeit a sedated, slow moving one. It took all my might to try to keep him calm.
The vet and nurse then took him out to a padded kennel and said they would put him on a drip, and he would be monitored all night, for us to call in the morning.
I am beside myself with worry if I am honest. I know when you call a vets they always say "he's settled, and comfortable" well most of the time anyway. I would much rather be in the kennel now with him, rather than here worrying. It's horrible waiting.
I am hoping we can get him to an emergency appt for ther MRI (what do they class as an emergency if it's not this?) I am very concerned this is a tumour or some fluid on the brain ?
I am so worried also that he will have brian damage, just because he didn't really recognise me at home after the fitting (he usually is pleased I am there), he didn't seem to be seeing properly at home too, or even when I left him (but guess thats the valium)
Well it's a sleepless night for us here.......

I will of course let you know what's what as soon as I know more - cross all fingers & paws for good news for us please !!
Shelley xx

Oh Shelley, that must have been horrendous for you :(  Poor Ollie! Try not to worry too much about him not recognising you after the seizures, it may just have been the after effects of them and also as you said the Valium will have probably dulled his senses too.  I really hope you get news this morning that he is recovering and that the scan can be speeded up so that you can get to the bottom of what is ailing him.  Everything is crossed here that it turns out be be something that can be controlled by medication and that your worst fears are unfounded.  Please keep us posted!

Good luck!

Lesley

If you were told to stop the phenobarb it was inevitable that Ollie would have more fits - it's a "rebound" phenomenum which is well known. I have much personal experience of epilepsy as my daughter has experienced seizures on and off for the last 35 years :-( :-(
I seem to remember that one Dr told me some time ago that anyone would have a seizure if they took anti-convulsants and then suddenly stopped. I hope you get the scan done ASAP to check out that it's not being caused by a tumour. Very best wishes.

Hi there Lesley/Carene everyone !

Thanks so much for your notes.You are very kind

Well, I rang the vets after a sleepless night and they said he seemed settled enough to come home, he had fitted after we left for a little while, but had come through okay, and had settled down for the night.No problems since.

Jon picked him up at 11.30 and came home with some rectal valium to administer if the fitting continued like last time.
When he came in Ollie was so disorientated (I put it down to being away for a day, but wasn't sure he was 'right')
He was pacing around, crying, and wingeing, I said to Jon that I really wasn't sure he was okay.
I was unfortunately proved right. You know how it is - you just know your own dog.

He basically tried to have a sleep, a went off for about a minute, and then jumped up, his head turning towards his tail like someone had startled him.The sight of his head in that contorsion is heartbreaking - so horrible, it's like something takes over them and they are in pain (though i'm told they are unconscious, so feel no apparent pain???)
He basically had 3 more fits, and in this time whilst trying to stop him getting up and hurting himself whilst thrashing about (he seems to want to move about so much more whilst fitting these last few days) I managed to administer one of the valiums. He continued to fit again but was trying to walk about, and moving himself in any corner (maybe he feels he can't halm himself in a corner????)
Eventually he came round a bit, but was desperate to get up , was bashing into things as I tried to help him, he was not back fully.
Rang the vets, they said rush him over again.

Vets are now going to run the pre-MRI tests tomorrow, which I now am told will mean if certain areas of 'function' come back clear, he can have the Phenobarb as it wont interfere with the MRI
That's tomorrow morning, so again another night without my Olls.
I'll of course let you know how things plan out.
*Cerene, just so that you know, Ollie hasn't started any drugs at all yet, so the fits aren't because we are stopping the treatment.
Thanks for your note - we forget that people suffer from these ailments too, I hope your daughter copes well.

Love Shelleyx

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you. It's such a terrible thing to witness, isn't it? Good luck to all of you.

When I had a fitter, and I was desperately trying to find a bright side to look on, I realised that at least it had made me much more tolerant and understanding, and less fearful, when humans fitted.

Thanks a million, and you are right, I wouldn't feel scared of helping a human fitter now - just because I am so much better informed, and can understand how they feel.

Going to call the vets at 6.30 to see how things are.

Will let you know more tomorrow
Shelleyxx

Hi Shelley,

I'm so sorry to hear that Ollie is going through so much - and it's equally hard for you and your family to go through too :(   Will keep everything crossed that the MRI scan reveals nothing sinister and that hopefully minimal meds will give him relief from seizures.

Give him a {{{hug}}} from me.
Bless you, Teri x

Shelley, my heart really goes out to you and your family - it must be so upsetting to watch Ollie in such distress :(  I'll be thinking of you tonight, spending another night apart from him, and praying that the tests tomorrow might allow you to get him on some medication.  Keep your chin up, I'm sure it's going to work out ok for him soon :)  Give him a tickle behind the ear from me :D

Lesley

Shelley I know exactly what you are going through as my son's beautiful white GSd,Shelley, has been having seizures since she was 2 years old She is 6 now and has been on constant medication She still has "episodes" when the pheno stops working either due to stress or her putting on weight and having to get the dosage re-assessed.Last night she started fitting at 8 pm and had 7 fits between then and 12.40 am and they had to use the valium syringe that they have on standby. She slept after that and had another fit at 7am.My daughter-in-law took her to the vets at 10 am and they took a blood test and gave her another injection of valium.Now it's a case of waiting to see if they need to"up" her medication.Shelley is a very sensitive dog and seems affected by any change in the routine of the household. My other son had been staying with them till last week ,when he moved in to his own flat,and they think that is what brought this on.The last time this happened was 6 months ago,when he moved in with all his stuff,again a change in the routine. My heart goes out to you,as I know what a traumatic time you must be having. I pray that they get your dog stabilised soon ,as Shelley is her normal happy self in between these "episodes",and I am sure that Ollie will be too.Love Jean

How is Ollie doing now Shelley?  Hope he's feeling a bit better now!

Lesley

Hi Jean, Lesley everyone :-)

Thanks so much for your notes, everyone of them helps, I promise you - just to hear that others have come through this ordeal (and I know you will agree that it IS an ordeal)

I hope your daughter in law's dog can become stabilised again Jean, I thank you for making me aware of how sensitive it can make them, as I Jon and I have been up for almost all of the night as Ollie is just NOT settling at all.
He came back from the vets at 3.45pm last night, seemed perky, and happier than he did when he came back on Thursday lunchtime.BUT he has not stopped crying/whingeing all night, he is doing this through eating food, (he gets ravenous) sleeping (the little time he has slept) and is now just pacing around the house.He is also drinking and weeing a heckmof a lot more than he usually does. Could this be to do with the tests ?
I am so very worried as he also kepps looking into the air, and seems sensitive to touch sometimes.
I am concerned the last bouts of fitting have caused brain damage albeit slightly ? has anyone had any of these similar symptons ?

Ollie has had a rack of blood test, bile tests, and 'other' tests yesterday morning, (I know for the bile test he had to have a very fatty meal, butter and sausages, really greasy stuff)
When I rang at 1 to see if I could collect him, they said he was 'packed out' and settled so could we collect him at 3pm
Do you think they gave him lots of drugs during this time? and this is the after effects ?
Or is he truly disorientated, and this is true anxiety is a strong form ?
We are both sitting here now, and he is still crying. I have checked him time and time again, for hurting bones, cuts or something obvious, but all seems fine. I know I am not a vet, so think that I will have to go back to the vets this morning - or at the least call them.
In every other way Ollie seems fine, he seems so happy to be hear, and is loving.

The vet gave us Epiphen - but said to my husband she really wanted us to use these only if he is fitting a lot. I actually wonder if they administered any but didnt tell us - surely not ? but are these symptons of him having epiphen for the first time.?
Our vet is very good, old school, and I am sure that this is not the case.
I know my husband got the impression that the vet felt Ollie had been through the mill and kind of was offering an olive branch, if we should need it, but also know we have to try not to use it as it will intefere in the MRI on the 12/5
Sooooooo.....

Well, I will of course let you know how things go, I just hope that this is normal behaviour after cluster fitting, (the vet said the 'episodes' on Wednesday were boardering status epilepticus) and that this after effect will lessen through today ?

If anyone has been through this can they please let us know this is normal behaviour. THANKYOU !

Have a great Saturday everyone, let's hope the sun keeps shining (and I stay awake long enough to enjoy it !!!!)
Shelleyxx

Hi Shelley,

Poor Ollie, he really is going through the mill :( I haven't a clue whether his behaviour is what might be expected, because I've never experienced anything like what Ollie is going through with any dog (and I truly hope I never have to).  But I'm wondering if at least a little part of it is his being a Spinone :)  I know my boys can be quite pitiful if they are feeling poorly, and restlessness is usually a first sign to us that something is amiss, eg perhaps a stomach upset brewing.  I know that's a very minor complaint to use as an example, but I do find our Spins to exhibit a lot of restlessness if poorly, more so than other breeds we've had in the past.  Do you find with yours, that for all their ingrained HPR characteristics, they can actually be very sensitive at times? We find that with our boys :)  I don't know if what I'm trying to say makes any sense at all, but I'm just trying to ease your worry a bit, even if you think I'm talking rubbish :D 

Anyway, enough of my haverings - I hope someone soon comes along who has experience of the after effects of seizures and can give you some sensible advice :)

Keep us posted, and try to get some sleep :)

Lesley

hi Shelley. yes Shelley goes through the whole gamut of symptoms you have described Sometimes it takes her a few days to get back to normal She paces constantly and whines and is very restless. She is also ravenous,and that is why she is piling on the weight and as the medication is carefully controlled by her weight,they think that it just stops working occasionally. She had a blood test yesterday to check her levels and they will get the results back on Wed. In the meantime,she took another 2 fits after she came back from the vets yesterday,and that was after her 3rd dose of valium . My son said she was a lot brighter last night and wagging her tail at everyone,but the last"episode" she had she was disorientated for a few days and sometimes looked at you as if she didnt know you.She has Pheno twice a day and it has to be at the same times every day,and she also gets potassium bromide in liquid form along with the evening dose.it took a lot of trial and error to find her correct dose,but she got there in the end,and I am sure that Ollie will too.Once he is stabilised and on the right medication,he will be back to normal,as Shelley always is.Shelley was actually my dog,but when she started fitting I got too distressed and couldn't cope,so my son and his wife took her,as they already had an older GSD,and they love each other. She went a whole year without a fit last year,and no-one seems to know what triggers these "episodes".Hugs and kisses and good wishes to you and your family and Ollie. I know exactly what you are going through. Jean

Hi Shelley glad Ollie is back with you this will bring his stress level down knowing you are near.Epiphen ( pheno)_ twice a day is what Kyle takes I think at first it does affect them slightly because it is a strong drug but he will adapt.
whining into the air is something kyle does now but I put it down to his age
Ollie is probably a little frightened and wondering what is going on. We always popped kyle on the sofa with a cushion and sit with him watching the tele he relaxed and would fall asleep but his fits were brought under control much sooner.I remember being a little obsessed and watching his every move and my hubby told me to calm down a bit and just leave him.
Once the MRI is over you will learn how to cope better with him

give him a big {{{{HUG}}}}} from auntie roni

Hiya Jean/Starryeyes and everyone !

I was relieved to know that what Ollie was crying for was definately stress of being in the kennels, the tests and being away from home. I know it seemed ridiculous, but I was so worried he had been affected somehow by the fits.
Yesterday afternoon the crying seemed to lessen, and by the evening he was not crying at all.
I guess he was just worried that anytime anyone left the room, or worst still went out of the front door, he would be going back to the kennels at the vets.
I know he was stressed as I see the bridge of his nose is sore, no doubt from rubbing on the kennel door.
I also noticed a shaved patch under his throat area, does anyone know what this was for, my husband said near the jugular vein, would this be for a drip line, or for blood samples ? Makes me agree I would be crying like he did too if I should know what they did to him.

Jean, I hope that your Shelley can become stabilised again, it must be horrible to have them settled with the meds for it all to alter and fitting happen again. Hope the blood tests come back okay on weds, please let me know how she goes won't you.
I totally understand that you could not cope. I know from seeing Ollie in turmoil how stressing it is, it breaks my heart to see him like that, knowing he just has to get through it alone. At least you still get to see her, and know she's in the very best hands, they must be fanstastic people your Son and daughter in law.
I have to say that if we had kids, this would be very disressing for them, and hats off to people who manage this with children around.We cant have children, hence everytime I used to get broody, another Spinone came along !!!! good job that stopped at 4 hey !!!

Today all is almost back to normal, albeit Ollie is a little quiet (who can blame him)
We've all been out for a walk, and in the garden, and so far so good.

Thanks again to you all for all of your encouragement, boy have we been glad of it !
Shelley and Ollie xxxx

Hi! I'm very glad to hear that Ollie was 'only' stressed at being away in kennels (though that's upsetting enough) and it wasn't anything caused by the fits. When my dogs have had blood samples taken for various things it's been taken from the jugular, so I'd imagine that's what happened with Ollie. When I've seen dogs with driplines they've been in the vein on the foreleg, not in the neck.

Wishing you both and Ollie all the best.
:)

I'm really glad to hear that Ollie has settled, Shelley :)  Good luck with the scan and I hope he stays seizure free until he has it.  Let us know how he is getting on!

Best wishes

Lesley

Hi Shelley, Been reading your posts concerning Ollie,and would like to add my well wishes for his speedy recovery, Hope all is well soon. I absolutely adore Spinone`s and one day hope to own one.

God bless, and lots of {{{{hugs}}}} for Ollie

Jackie

Hi Jackie and all you lovely people !

Thanks for your well wishing, seems to have worked, Ollie has been okay pretty much since he came home.
He did have a 'single' fit last night at 3.30am, but came thorugh it quite quickly, unlike the other times.

I actually bought some of the Bach rescue remedy yesterday, on peoples recommendatins here, and gave him the 4 drops after he had fitted and was coming round. It seemed to be fantastic - he was pacing around big time for 20 minutes after his fit, then gradually seemed vey calm, and went into his bed and was snoring about 5 mins later ! Maybe it's conincidental, but he's never recovered that quickly, so i'll use it again next time for sure.

Jackie, I hope you get your Spinone soon, they are truly the most wonderful companions ever, so gentle natured and fantastic fun, they are (in my very biased eyes !!!) the best dog to have, if you want a gentle giant who loves nothing more than a cuddle, especailly when covered in mud, or water (suppose should mention lots of slobber, hairy feet, fully trained food theif and bed/sofa hogger !!!!)
I'm sure other Spin owners will say the same !

Anyway - will keep you all updated, off for walkies now !
Shelley, Ollie and the furry posseeeeeeeee xxxx

Hi Shelley,
Have been reading your post over sometime with regard to Ollie and really wanted to pass on my very best wishes. I know exactly what you are going through the fitting then pacing and then the screaming it is soooooo destressing. I owned a dog who developed epilepsy when it was 18 months old I dont know what triggered it but it was the shock of my life when I woke up to find her next to my bed in that state. My vet immediatley prescribed epiphen and then when that didn't stop them she was was on epiphen and diazepam.
Good luck and keep us all posted.
Big kiss for ollieXXXXXXXXXXX

Hi there "Colkever"

Ahhh Thanks so much for your lovely email, I am truly overwhelmed with all the nice people out there.
You are right, it is sooooo soooo distressing to see your furry friend be so upset and distressed. I really think that you can only relate to it if you have been through it yourself, only then do you really know how horrid it is.
We have almost had a clear 2 day run since Mondays 3am episode, how awful does that sound, just 2 days free. Still I am happy to go any length of time right now - just so I can see him happy with his friends, and almost back to his normal jolly self.

He had a 'shower' last night as when he fits he gets covered in wee, and it stains his skin - and HE STINKS ! -
Was very comical seeing him in the cubicle looking around like "okay - i'm really not enjoying this much - can we get out now please"!!!! revenge is very sweet, as he covered the bathroom walls with water (i'm sure he was smiling at that point ! he he !)
We all had a lovely walk this afternoon, and he came along too just as normal. He's having a nice wander round the garden at this moment, trying to scare the chickens !!! (although if the truth be known, he's the frightened one !!!!)
Anyway, Thanks again & hope your doggie is okay too.
Love Shelley & Ollie xxxx :-)

Great news Shelley that Ollie has been seizure free for a couple of days :D  Let's hope it stays that way - it must be such a relief to see him relaxed and having fun after his recent trials :)

Lesley

Hi Everyone

As I promised, i'm just writing a little note to tell you about Ollie's MRI.....

What a day yesterday, poor Ollie, I really really felt for him, and felt so terrible making hinm go through it, but we needed to do it.
He had a very, very thorough examination, and then we all sat for an hour and went through everything together with the neurologist Alberta. She was fantastic, so nice to be with someone that totally understood all about epilepsy, and could answer ALL of your questions.
He had his MRI, and they decided to do a spinal tap puncutre to drain off some fluid for testing.
I have to say that this scared me a bit as I know a slip of the needle with this procedure is very dangerous. Saying that he was really in the best of hands, so I was confident he was going to be fine.

They drew lots of blood for testing of the thyroid by doing the 6 panel test, and we should get those results next week.
The MRI didn't show (Thankfully I have to say) any tumours, or cancer or anything worrying, but did show that he has an extra part of the cerrabellum (like one of the other puppies didn't get that part, he got it :-) !)
They are sure this has nothing to do with the epilepsy, and say it wouldn't have any impact on him at all as that part of the brain didn't run to those pathways.

We took Ollie home about 5.30pm (been there since 10.15am) he now has a 1/2 shaven head (bless!) shaven neck & shaven legs which looked really bruised and bloody. OUCH

They have given us Phenobarb to start him on at the rate of 1 and a 1/2 tabs a day (90mg in all)
I am going to discuss this first with my vet Tina, as I know she wanted to discuss other options like Potassium Bromide, and I am interested in following a homeopathic route, but they did advise yesterday that due to the severity of Ollies fits (and him bordering Status Epilpeticus twice in a month) this may not be a sensible thing to do, her words were "Ollie needs meds NOW" and that Pot Brom and Homeopothy weren't going to be the answer for months. They would take too long to work, and that the way Ollie has been fitting, if it carries on at this extremity it could leave him brain damaged.
It's all too much to take in, but we just want whats best for our boy.
Will let you know what we decide to do.
Alberta did say that the severity of Ollie's fitting and clustering means we should use the Phenobarb to get him under control as the Pot. Brom can take 3-6 mths to take effect.
Something we don't want to do is wait and put him through more of what he's already had to go through, so I will take advice from Tina our vet firstly to see her views.

He has to go back 2 weeks after the first dose to have blood drawn for testing the Phen levels, from whenever/if we start.
According to Alberta we could be in for a slightly rough 2 weeks if we do start the Phenobarb, as it can in the early stages cause ataxia, and he will be either hypo, or sleepy, and very unsteady on his feet. I hate the thought of this, did anyone have any problems when they started these drugs - I would love to know your experiences.

So, really I suppose it's good news there's nothing wrong, or should I say nothing physically causing the epilepsy.

He's a bit tired today, (and me too !) and I can sense he's a bit stressed by the whole experience as every time I move, there's Ollie behind me no matter how tired he is !!!

In hope all of our Champ Dogs doggie friends are doing well, and staying fit free, we are thinking of you all.....

Well, will keep in touch, and here's to a S+UNNY (YES, SUNNY!) fit free weekend
Love and slobber to you all
Shelley & Ollie xx

Yes, my bitch took a few weeks to become used to the sedative effect of the pheno, but it had the desired effect and stopped the fits, and she acclimatised to the 'feel' of the medication. She went on to live a perfectly normal life - you would never sustecy she'd been a fitter ...
:)

Great news that you've had a couple of good days - doesn't it make you appreciate the good times? Long may they continue.
:)

hi Shelley good news keep us posted thinking of you all
Roni

Hi Shelley,
I`m fairly new to champs but have read your post, I have 4 spins, I`m so sorry to hear about your Ollie, Ihope he is still having a some fit free days it really is awfull,one of my girls had fits when she was tiny,hers was due to allergic reaction to the vaccines, Thankfully we got her sorted going down the homeopathic route. Reading all your posts really upset me, like you I think spins are the best dog ever,slobber , mud paws and all, my friend breeds them and we both feel they are unique to any other breed, we believe they are little people in dogs bodies, they are extremely sensitive,and Ollie is so lucky to have a mummy and daddy to care so much for him, please give him a big hug from me and my 4 spins, and i hope he will be on the mend soon, we are thinking of you all

Hiya Jill and Spini's :-) and all my Champdog friends

Ahh it's soooo loverly to read someone else loves Spin's like we do !!!!
I just love the thought of them asl ittle people in dogs bodies, you are SO right, that sums them up so well !
We just went away for the weekend to see my parents, they live in Leicestershire, so a 1 1/2 hr journey for the dogs.
We weren't sure whether to risk it as I had nightmares about him being in the back of the car having a fit.
Well, we decided as the dogs all love going there (just to be in a pampered, spoilt rotten, "steal anything you like and don't get told off for it" zone!!!)
We would just chance it.

Everything went great, they all had the best time, and have been running around happy as Larry all weekend, even had roast chicken dinner with veg today (see I told you they were spoilt !) and we just got back and not a fit in sight (fingers crossed, plllleeeaaassseee)
Mum & Dad's house on the other hand is now covered in signature slobber, mud tracks are throughout the house (were cream carpets really a good idea!?) trashed garden (Spins hate bedding plant's dont they...just too easy !!!) duvets are all covered in hair, and we have one missing slipper ..
to add insult to injury, their nice tidy house looks like a F1 tornado went through it !!! he he .....Good job we only visit 3 times a year, takes them that to recover from the last visit !!!

Jill, would you be kind enough to tell me what the homeopathic route you took was for your little one - we have a friend of a friend into homeopathic for humans, and she recommends Opium, for the alternative to the Phenobarb.
I am so worried to give him this drug after the MRI...just worried about long term effects, but know we do have to do something to help him, and of course know from the people who replied to this post, that it has done wonders for lots of dogs, and they have lived happy fulfilled lives, which I wantnsooo much for my boy.
I just want to give Ollie the very best start to get better, and make his life comfortable, and full of good life qualities he has known before. I know it's hard to stop or interfere with the pheno once you start, so need to address this soon.

You are right, Spins are really sensitive, that's why I worry for Ollie with the epilepsy, he does know something isn't right with him, he's sometimes very quiet, (reminds me of a poorly/sulking child whose been told off and won't talk) and I do worry it's 'hurting' him in some way. If we had kids, then I am sure this is how I'd feel with a child, you just get tuned in, especially with a spin, like you say they are little humans.
If only they could talk ! - bet there'd be some good stories to tell eh ! Might tell me what happened to my missing shoes and that cod and chips I was looking forward to last week!!!! !!!! he he :-)

Have a lovely day off tomorrow - ENJOY!
Lots of slobber to you all
Shelley, Ollie, Tiva, Rosie and Tia
xxxxx

Hi Shelley, so glad youve had a great time with Grandma, spins just love as much fuss as they can get,sounds like your parents love them as much as us.
You asked about the homeopathic route, we have an excellent homeopathic vet here in Southampton very well known, I don`t know if youv`e ever thought of trying one but it`s an experience in itself to go to one,they take so much information about your dog and once you say the words THEY WERE PERFECTLY FINE UNTIL, well it`s just amazing the way your pet is treated they really do get to the root of the problem, so i can honestly say i would be taking mine to one if in Ollies situation, I don`t want to rave on to you but another friend that breeds spins in Scotland got me onto this when Joannie had her fit, Mainly because one of their own was extremely poorly and there on vet had said he just didn`t hold out any hope of her surviving past the age of 3 well she`s 10 now, there really are so many good stories of recovery using this method and as all mine are of spins i really would try them if you can.
I`m sure the first thing would be to detox and it`s by no means to late this can be done by using a homeopathic drug called Thuja and you need the 30c, I was amazed at how quickly this started to work.
I don`t know if youv`e heard of a lady called Amanda Coombes, she has been doing lots of work on spins and the affects of vaccinations, I had a questionaire from her to fill out on how they were after they had them, anyway she knows so much about spins and the affects of all sorts of drugs that seem to interfer with them that might not affect others in the same way, she`s a lovely lady and i`m sure she would also be able to give you some very valuable advice, if you would like to contact her i can give you her phone no, It`s probably better if you email me personally rather than i put her no here.
You can get me at  forrestbreeze@dsl.pipex.com   , please feel free to contact me at any time if i can help or you need someone to talk to i`m always here or walkies!
Please give Ollie a special hug from me and his sisters, I totally understand about not separating them my are devastated if apart and they actually hug eachother like humans when one comes back , my big boy Chachi actually cries with tears and gets a runny nose they really are just such special little folk i could never be without mine, Anyway we are thinking of you all please consider luv jill chachi, Joannie, Dibley and Strudel

Hi Everyone

As I promised, i'm just writing a little note to tell you about Ollie's MRI.....

What a day yesterday, poor Ollie, I really really felt for him, and felt so terrible making hinm go through it, but we needed to do it.
He had a very, very thorough examination, and then we all sat for an hour and went through everything together with the neurologist Alberta. She was fantastic, so nice to be with someone that totally understood all about epilepsy, and could answer ALL of your questions.
He had his MRI, and they decided to do a spinal tap puncutre to drain off some fluid for testing.
I have to say that this scared me a bit as I know a slip of the needle with this procedure is very dangerous. Saying that he was really in the best of hands, so I was confident he was going to be fine.

They drew lots of blood for testing of the thyroid by doing the 6 panel test, and we should get those results next week.
The MRI didn't show (Thankfully I have to say) any tumours, or cancer or anything worrying, but did show that he has an extra part of the cerrabellum (like one of the other puppies didn't get that part, he got it  !)
They are sure this has nothing to do with the epilepsy, and say it wouldn't have any impact on him at all as that part of the brain didn't run to those pathways.

We took Ollie home about 5.30pm (been there since 10.15am) he now has a 1/2 shaven head (bless!) shaven neck & shaven legs which looked really bruised and bloody. OUCH

They have given us Phenobarb to start him on at the rate of 1 and a 1/2 tabs a day (90mg in all)
I am going to discuss this first with my vet Tina, as I know she wanted to discuss other options like Potassium Bromide, and I am interested in following a homeopathic route, but they did advise yesterday that due to the severity of Ollies fits (and him bordering Status Epilpeticus twice in a month) this may not be a sensible thing to do, her words were "Ollie needs meds NOW" and that Pot Brom and Homeopothy weren't going to be the answer for months. They would take too long to work, and that the way Ollie has been fitting, if it carries on at this extremity it could leave him brain damaged.
It's all too much to take in, but we just want whats best for our boy.
Will let you know what we decide to do.
Alberta did say that the severity of Ollie's fitting and clustering means we should use the Phenobarb to get him under control as the Pot. Brom can take 3-6 mths to take effect.
Something we don't want to do is wait and put him through more of what he's already had to go through, so I will take advice from Tina our vet firstly to see her views.

He has to go back 2 weeks after the first dose to have blood drawn for testing the Phen levels, from whenever/if we start.
According to Alberta we could be in for a slightly rough 2 weeks if we do start the Phenobarb, as it can in the early stages cause ataxia, and he will be either hypo, or sleepy, and very unsteady on his feet. I hate the thought of this, did anyone have any problems when they started these drugs - I would love to know your experiences.

So, really I suppose it's good news there's nothing wrong, or should I say nothing physically causing the epilepsy.

He's a bit tired today, (and me too !) and I can sense he's a bit stressed by the whole experience as every time I move, there's Ollie behind me no matter how tired he is !!!

In hope all of our Champ Dogs doggie friends are doing well, and staying fit free, we are thinking of you all.....

Well, will keep in touch, and here's to a S+UNNY (YES, SUNNY!) fit free weekend
Love and slobber to you all
Shelley & Ollie xx 

Hi Shelley

Aw, poor Ollie, what a day he had :(  And the poor lad having half his head shaved!  Never mind, it will soon grow back :)  I'm really glad that there has been nothing physical like a tumour found; that must be a huge relief for you. Hopefully you can now get him on medication and get him stabilised :)  Good luck with the process of getting his meds at the right level - I hope he copes with it ok and that you have a great outcome with his daily life back to normal - eg climbing on knees for cuddles, shaking slobber everywhere, bringing soft toys as presents while making that Chewbacca wooing noise that Spins do so well etc etc :D

Thank you so much for coming back and giving us the update - I had been wondering how Ollie Spinone was getting on :)  Let us know how it goes with his meds and two Spin boys here send him big slobbers and say "get well soon Ollie"!

Best wishes

Lesley