I have been reading this website and realise a lot of people are against new breeders. However, can anyone point me in a direction on where to find information on breeding and making the decision about breeding or not. We are obviously not looking at this for the immediate future as Poppy is only 9 months old, but I want to read up on this as much as I can before she's at the age when she can breed. (when she's at least 2)
I noticed the book of the bitch is mentioned a lot, is this really useful?
The vet has advised us on getting eye, hip and elbow scores done when she's about 1 which we fully intend doing before any decision is made, we will not breed if these do not give good results.
Thanks

By the way Poppy (was is a labrador with at least 10 generations of pure bred) has come from a reputable breeder and she is KC registered. Both parents had excellent hip and eye scores. Is there any other information about her family history I should find out?

Hi! It's not new breeders per se that people don't like, but new breeders who don't bother with health tests, or researching their breed, or finding the right stud dog. Anyone who goes about it properly is given all the help we can! And you seem to be thinking and planning well in advance, so you seem to be one of the good ones. :)

Yes, the Book of the Bitch is invaluable, as it's full of very useful information. Also it's a good idea to get as many books as you can (although some of the US published books have a lot that doesn't apply to the UK) about your particular breed and its history, and read, read, read!
:)

I don't think it's about not liking new breeders but people who think all you need to be a breeder is a fertile bitch & dog & off you go & thet every bitch has to be bred from& that breeding from pet quality bitches & dogs is fine as they are only being bred from to produce more pets. When in fact a breeder should breed from the best bitches & dogs around both health & breed type

Depending on what type of Labrador you have(show or working lines)you will need to read up about her bloodlines & if your breeder is willing they should be able to give you some ideas about a suitable dog, The book of the bitch is a good startig place as is reading labrador related books in general so you can get some idea on whether you seriously want to breed

What all breeders have to bear in mind is can they supply a lifetime back up service to each & every puppy they produce & take back any puppy at any time in it's life & possibly have to turn round a maltreated dog. They also have to be able to spend hours looking after both bitch & puppies making sure that they get the best care possible. If the answer to any of these is no then that person should not be breeding(this isn't aimed at you but all breeders)

Especially in a very much overbred breed like labradors were over 44,000 registered puppies are bred each & every year & I can only guess at the number of non registered puppies produced & brought in from Ireland by dealers, I would have to think long & hard abut why I was going to breed my bitch & add to this the risk the bitch is under simply by having a litter. A very experienced breeder friend of mine not only lost all her puppies but the bitch as well & with the bitch her own bloodlines were gone, devastated is an inder statement as she & the bitch were totally devoted to each other & she lost her best friend too

Lecy - you aren't the sort of person we are trying to dissuade - you are making all the checks now, reading up about everything, and intending to do the health checks etc etc etc - you will get all the help we possibly can on here when you are planning ahead, as you are!

As Moonmaiden says, look up her lines, see what lines complement hers - talk to her breeder if you can, s/hr'll know what lines you should be looking at - and good luck!

Margot

You are doing what we try to convince others is the right way to go about breeding. Learn as much as you can about your breed, see as many labs as you can - visit shows and talk to the people there - most will be happy to talk about their dogs, and speak at length to the breeder of your girl. Yes, the Book of The Bitch is invaluable, but also read as much as you can about labs and breeding in general. Good luck.

What makes a rep breeder? Can someone define that for me please. Because it does seem to differ whoever you talk to. Some will say all health checks must be done, understandable. but how do you know how good the stock behind your dogs are if the previous generations have not been tested? Even when they come from the 'best' (show or working) kennels in the country?
A perfect hip score, for example, would not be worth much if the grandparents had higher than avarage scores, or maybe even double the average. How safe is the 'average' score when only a few from that breed are actually scored? And any degree is actually a degree of HD. So should we breed from anything that shows a degree? Who says what average is safe? I use hips as an example.
So, apart from health checks, there is care. I would say a good diet for mum, any vet care provided, mum and dad being healthy goes a way to that. And with top conformation, colour or whatever else is relevant to that breed. Temp must top this list too. As to bloodlines...to inbreed or to outcross. Seems a lot here have varying opinions on that as well. Son to mum? half bro to half sister, within a close ped? How close do you go? Seems those that study genetics have differing ideas to breeders.
To be home reared or kenneled.....socialisation has to be the key to a happy temp sound puppy. Well, almost, mum and dads temp plays a part too....another minefield.

Reasons for breeding. Why does anyone here breed? Why does anyone breed. Who says what the best dogs are. 'Pet' dogs are looked down on, but lets face it some of the dogs in the ring are not the best of their breed, sometimes its whos holding the lead not whats on the end of it that defines that. Sorry, but in your hearts you all know what I mean. And not all beauties are in the show ring. Not all show dogs have the temp I would like where as there are some excellent conformation dogs that are pets that have wonderful natures that have been proven by living in the home, that breed the most lovely pets.....and sometimes those pups can go on to show or work. I take it to breed no one thinks of the price of the puppy......sorry but thats not right. or pups wouldnt be sold at all, they would be carefully homed, with full restrictions placed so they cannot be bred unless suitable. So please, dont say that no one makes money from the pups, or it is wrong to breed and make some money. Not if your pups are to be exchanged for money.

So, what is a good breeder? What is a hobby breeder? What is wrong with using your own carefully selected dog if he gives the most wonderful pups from your bitch? How can you tell if a mating is going to be good till you have tried it with your bitch? Thats why there are trial matings..you cant be sure till you get the result. And who dictates who will or wont breed?

A note......does the average person in the street realise just how easy it is to fake some of the scores? Until all breeding stock is DNA profiled, microchipped, tatood (or both,) BEFORE hip scores, eyes tests, elbow tests etc are carried out, and then the pups dna checked to each parent, and the parent having id that the purchaser can see therfore verifying that the dogs are who they say they are, then the tests could be deemed to be not worth the paper they are written on if the breeder is of a suspect nature. example....if all you need is a kc paper to have a hip score, say you get dog A scored and the result is good. Dog B has a poor score. being a suspect person you may have a spare set of papers handy just for this situation, so.... take previously scored Dog A to different vet practice, with spare papers and low and behold, Dog B now has equally good hips!! Magic....but just the sort of thing the backstreet breeders could do. And remember, its not just backstreet breeders, those of excellent standing in the dog world, International champ judge comes to mind, whose long line of dogs were discreadeted because he had not been totally honest with the registrations, fall occasionally. And in cases like that, tell me how do you really know whats behind your dogs pedigree............
So, I ask again. Define a good breeder. 

A good, reputable breeder will breed for the GOOD of the breed - hopefully to improve the breed.   Most good breeders will only breed when they themselves want a puppy to keep.

What you say about taking Dog A with proven good hips to be scored time after time after time COULD happen - but puppy farms and backyard breeders do#t even bother with such tests.    The plates are sent each time, with the Kennel Club registration papers, to the BVA Hip scoring panel who decide upon the hip score.    Each time a dog is hip-scored, it is usually put under a general anaesthetic - how many people are going to put the same dog through a ga time after time - they could be killing the golden egg!!!

Good reputable breeders, who are breeding for the good of the breed will be using dogs that come from good hip-scoring lines in the first place - although good hipscoring lines does not always guarantee that a puppy WILL have good hips - there are a lot of people with wonderful dogs, with wonderful lines, coming from good hip-scoring parents that have terrible hip scores - environment can come into it as well.

Ijn my view, temperament is very, very important - as someone I know says - you can live with Ugly, but you can't live with bad temperament!   So again, the good breeder will only breed from good, even-tempered stock - but do bear in mind that temperament is different in each breed, and again, you breed to the breed standard.

So, lets look at my scenario - I want to breed for the good of my breed, so I had hips tested - came back with a score of 3.3 (breed average 12) I asked, not one, but several people, for their opinions as to which dog would complement my lines, and chose.   We had 7 puppies.   We kept 2, which we show, one is with her grandmother's breeder, who shows her.  Of the remainder, one sadly died as a result of a tragic accident, one is a pet PAT dog, one is a pet herding dog, and the other is a companion dog.   They are now just over two years old.

I am thinking about Mum's next litter - note THINKING!    We are also THINKING about breeding from the two pups - they have had their hips scored (again excellent) and eyes tested.   But I still haven't finished evaluating temperaments.    Obviously, feeling as I do, I'm not going to have two litters - we've got to work that out.

Some very authoratative people have published books advocating son to mother litters, but I#m afraid that that wouldn't be for me.   Yes, I know you can enhance the good points in your lines, but you can do the same with the bad points.  

Hopefully, I would be considered, by my peers, to be a reputable breeder.    I think I have been paid a big compliment by the owner of the dog who died - Milo was the first pup of my breed that she had, and she has gone out and found another pup of the same breed, as she found the house was too quiet without one.

Margot   

Re-reading my posting, I did not emphasise one point that I should have done - we kept two puppies from the litter - in retrospect, I shouldn't have done that - I wanted a blue merle bitch, but the black tri boy was too scrumptious to let go :)

However, it has been really very, very hard work, training two puppies - and I wouldn't let anyone have two together - it really would be a case of "don't do what I did - do as I say!! :)

Margot

Thankyou for taking the time to answer, you obviously care very much for your dogs and take great care and pleasure when you do have puppies. It was really refreshing hearing your views.

I agree totally that no one with sense would put a dog under ga lots of times, the point really that I was making is that it would be possible if someone had what they thought was a good dog but its hips were poor, to sub it for one thats good, until such a time as the dogs identity can def be checked.

Your dogd sound lovely, althogh would I guess a handful? Lol. What are they?

We've got the Awful Aussies :D :D :D

(No they are absolutely lovely really - they haven't yet realised that they didn't originate in Australia and therefore have no need to bounce like Kangaroos!!!)

And the Lovely Labradors .....

Margot

Actuyally Jaky most reputable breeders you speak too exude a passion for their dogs and breeds.  If they aren't oozing with enthusiasm, then you should be asking why are they doing it, otherwise it is almost self evident, a bit anorakish though :D  we are ll probably known as the local oddballs who are mad about dogs, I know I am where I live :D

Don't tell me that there's another Mad Dog Woman - I thought I was the only one :D :D

Margot

OOOh, no I think that I've got that certificate too :d :d  The mad single dog woman !!!

Yep, my Dad says I'll never get a man :D :D  Can't seem to beleive there is no contest the dogs win hands over fist over any potential male of the human species.

To blinking true lol even tho mines a gem I must say....and no hes not sitting behind me!! :) :)

I like to think of myself as eccentric rather than mad!  ;)   Even more so now I have a cat!

So glad to find that I'm not the only mad dog woman about - I'll proudly display my certificate from now on :)

The point about being anorakish is very valid :)

When driving I notice the dogs but not pedestrians unless they're children

My son says I am the dame with films noticing the canines in them more than the actors.

After agreeing it is not posters like yourself people want to put off the only thing I would add Lecy is that your breed sadly is already over bred. It has the highest amount of registration in the UK and the USA.    The rescues are bursting at the seams with Labradors and I don't mean crosses , I mean full well bred labradors and puppies.

My honest opinion is unless your labrador or anyone elses for that matter is really an outstanding example of the breed and really does have the special thing to give the breed then I think they should not be bred from.  This is just my opinion but I am a supportor of lab rescue and I see , read the volume of dogs going through the rescue.  I would encourage any breed enthusiast to think long and hard before breeding their labradors until figures in the UK both of KC registrations and rescue figures were more in moderation. The demand is not their for the dogs or the rescues would not be bursting at the seems all over.

I have a beautfully bred labrador that is nearly 2 years that we bought for my husband to show and of course a much loved family pet. She is from one of the top breeders of 30 plus years.  We however have no interest in breeding her for this very reason.

Sorry if I seem to be putting you off it is just really to give you food for thought. :-)

BFN Pam

Can anyone tell me what a good breed would be for a labrador in terms of hip/elbow scores? What would be exceptional?
Thanks

If you're talking about hipscores, the best is 0:0 (total 0) and the worst 53:53 (total 103). The average is 15, so ideally only individuals with lower scores would be bred from.

Both her parents had hip score of 7 in total, I assume this really good then. Do any dogs get scores of 00?

Yes, some do - not all breeds have had an example with a perfect score, but many have. A total of 7 is very acceptable. :)

I really do understand that you have a very difficult and I would think often heartbreaking job to do with rescue, especially in your breed which has very large numbers. Its a shame really that your type of people cant also diswade the big name breeders from producing so many puppys. You only have to see in the breed records that. Why do they need to produce quite so many? (Thats an observation, not a question directly :)  )

Pam - I couldn't agree with you more - and it is so refreshing to read your post.  I help with rescue too, and there are so many labradors needing homes, and yet so many are bred on the basis that their hip and eye scores are ok and they are nice labs.  While it may not apply to all breeds, in labs, where there are far too many already, I too think that they should be something special to be bred from.

"unless your labrador or anyone elses for that matter is really an outstanding example of the breed and really does have the special thing to give the breed then I think they should not be bred from."

Couldn´t agree more! There is just one thing I'd like to add to the above - good looks, health and character are not "a passport" to breeding! The hunting skills labradors should have are sadly neglected.