Continued from Agressive GSD

I've been watching the forum with great interest and feel I must clarify what Max (the GSD in question) has received training wise.

First off we went to the local dog training run by a very nice woman who was employed by the local authority. This was two weeks after Max had had his first jabs at about 14 weeks. The first thing he did when he met the trainer was growl at her even though she stood sideways to him to not appear as a threat. Whilst she was a very helpful lady she was the first to admit her expertise was not good enough to deal with Max as he seemed to be showing aggressive tendancies. The training consisted of tit-bit rewards and praise. Max didnt really respond to this, he did learn a few commands like sit and stay but we found ourselves moving on to more advanced commands when I thought that Max had not really grasped the basics. Recall consisted of letting Max go and then "jumping up and down and trying to be more interesting than the distractions in the hall". The trainer also had two dogs of hers with her, one of which was an aggressive rescue cross. Max always seemed to go and challenge this dog when let off the lead for a recall. I have to say with poor results we gave up the training because I felt that Max just simply wasn't getting the right training nor was I getting the info about Max's drives I needed.

Next we tried contacting an ex-police trainer who is home office approved. He was quite expensive for lessons but had a good reputation. We contacted him and filled in his forms. One of the sections on his form was for problems Max had. So we put down chasing joggers, cyclists, and dogs - essentially poor recall and sent a cheque off for his 10 week course. The next thing we knew he had returned the cheque and informed us that Max needed a one to one session at £25 an hour. So we agreed to meet him after his class. This consisted basically of the man telling us to put Max in a room on his own when he was naughty and again to use tit - bits for rewards. We asked if Max could join one of his classes but he said "I dont think Max would do very well in a class situation". We left the one hour session with the guy saying Max needs to mature before he can start any training, probably to come back in six months and have another session with. We didnt go back.

The third we tried was an APBC member behaviourist. We had to go to our vet to get referred to the Behaviourist and while we were there the vet said if we didnt get any joy with the Behaviourist to try a new drug called Selgian. Anyway we travelled the 50 odd miles to the APBC behaviourist. There began another session of about two hours where we detailed Max's problems. All the time we were there the behaviourist kept throwing tit-bits on the floor for Max to retrieve. At one stage she stopped and Max challenged her, this was about an hour into the session and I think he'd been weighing her up and she went white when he stood a few feet and barked at her. I was a bit worried about letting Max wander round the room without his lead on. Again we were told to use tit-bit training and reward with praise do train Max, but I dont think this is addressing the fundamental problems we have with Max. She did a lovely report quoting most of what we had said and told us to contact her with a monthy report. I emailed her a detailed monthly report which came back with a few useless comments. Again after seeing poor results we gave up with this and I felt that we didnt receive any real advice.

The fourth we tried was residential basic obediance training at the German Shepherd Academy in Norfolk. Max was there for four weeks and the trainer couldn't get near him for the first week which he spent trying to gain Max's confidence. We kept in touch with the Trainer every week and Max seemed to do well. We returned to collect Max after the four weeks and received half a days handler training. Again Max had been trained with tit-bits and I was instructed to keep a permanent supply of sausages in my pocket. I have to admit Max seemed like a different dog with him responding to commands and recalls with little prompting. But this lasted a month and he has a tendancy to return to his old ways at times. We still dare not let him off the lead as we know that the chase/prey drive in Max is very high.

I think of all the training they all have used the same methods and no one has really told why Max is behaving the way he does. I think the fundamental problem with Max is that he either thinks he is an Alpha or at least Beta within the pack (or family) and this is why he wont listen. The main problem we have is with Max and other people. He doesn't trust us enough to listen to our commands when he has made a decision. What we do to turn this around I have no idea. For example he was barking at our next door neighbour through the window and my dad went to get him away from the window by grabbing his collar, but he turned round and bit him quite hard. From case historys I know that Max is saying "I'm dealing with this" and warning my dad off. He also has a habit of growling at anyone except me when we make him wait for his food and has been know in the past to growl at someone while hes eating it, but he doesnt do it to me, which looks like Beta Behaviour. But when he is barking at the next door neighbour will not take any notice of me to come away when called which looks like Alpha Behaviour.

Basically after the four training places we have tried none have really explained why Max is doing the things he is doing - no one seems to be addressing the primal drives of Max and all using tit-bit training which isnt effective on Max. Anyway I've rambled enough, I hope this has given people an overview of Max's history which I think needed explaining judging by some of the emails I have received on the subject. I've had a dog before Max called Tara, and she was totally different. She behaved like a 'Normal' dog, she also had a bit of Shepherd in her but what I've seen of Max just has me totally puzzled as his behaviour isn't consistant.

It's really interesting to read such a detailed history of Max - and I would agree that you have certainly tried very hard and also yes, I would agree that nothing has got to the bottom of Max's behaviour and what motivates him, which is a sham,e as you have tried so hard!.

He is obviously very bright and manipulative and making your life very difficult - I wonder if you have considered maybe taking up something like say, working trials or a dog "sport"...as this often helps dog and owner to bond and the dog learns to listen to the owner. It's a bit of a catch 22 as the dog needs to respiond to obedience before taking up any of these sports, but it;s just an idea.....a sympathetic instructor could help.

LIndsay

Hi Banger, Mike and everyone.
I think any of us who have gone to the trouble to learn how to train our dogs must be in despair in recent years at the phenomenal amount of people who are trying to shortcut the fundamental training on drives of our dogs, eventually we will all end up with a law stating we have to muzzle them and they will not be allowed off a lead.
Why of why are people trying short cuts such as aiming at one single problem which is the result of nothing more than a lack a full training program, including teaching the owner.Shortcuts such as taking your dog for 'treatment' 'counselling' simply are just going to reinforce your dogs bad habits.
Mike, behaviourist is a term first coined by Burrhus Skinner in USA around 1920 it was and is a school of human psychology.
'The Behaviourists' (human psychologists) based their early thoughts on the physiologist Ivan Pavlov.
Pavlov’s main interest was in the digestive system and he used a dog for experiments between 1890 and 1900, I think. His experiments were based in the peace and quite of a lab and it was here that he coined the term ‘conditioned reflex’.
Without going into detail, under lab conditions, he had ‘trained’ a dog to salivate at the sound of a bell, the important part of this was a more analytical understanding of the learning process in animals in this case dogs, in the peace and quiet of the lab and without the audible and visual distractions we find when we walk out or sit at home with our dogs.
It must be remembered that the first genetic engineers go way back to the Stone Age maybe beyond, this includes selective breeding of the wolf into what we now know as a dog.
Over this past 40,000 years man has had dogs as working animals and has successfully trained them for his purpose, without words such as ‘therapy’, ‘treatment’, phrases such as behaviour modification, drugs etc.
All animals learn on a system of reward and punishment BUT within its genetic limitations. When we get a pup this pup is already WELL into being trained by its mother, the mother is the most efficient and professional trainer there is, whilst the pup is with her of course.
If the pup shows behaviour not conducive to the order of the pack the mother instantly bears down with a growl, teeth bared and a centimetre from pups face, the pup almost invariably screams the injured hell hound, instantaneously the mother licks his mouth, nuzzles his head and re-accepts him into the pack, this is the beginning of conditioned responses, the fundamental groundwork of training, the foundation of the pups desire to be a member of the pack and the foundation of the developement of the pack drive.
She has started the training on the second strongest drive of all, the pack drive, all rewards and punishments in handler to dog training are based on rewarding the pack drive, if they are to be successful in an emergency, which we all must train for.
There are numerous naturally occurring punishments in nature which your dog will experience, stinging nettles, wasps or bees, in nature yellow and black is a warning sign, once stung your dog will associate it with the flying or sitting yellow and black insect smell/size etc. Your dog once stung has received a negative reinforcement or punishment and is unlikely to repeat his inquisitiveness.
In other words your dog has ‘learned’ there is no reward in his challenging mother ‘The pack leader’, his interest in bees, nettles, and many, many other naturally occurring things which have no reward only punishment, this makes him behave in a way which is pleasurable to him and punishment free, in other words he is enjoying greater and more continuous rewards all day long, he ‘learns’, this is the principle of behaviourist learning.
In the case of Bangers dog it is rewarding itself all day long by dominating the family, continual reinforcement. Bangers detailed run down of all events since a pup show no professional involvement or punishments have been taught, who can blame a dog for constantly rewarding himself.
All dog trainers over this past 40000 years or so have been and are behaviourists but few use the word, although they understanding how they do it.
All trainers train on drives and rewards of praise are always given on pack drive, it is pack drive which makes the dog want to please you and he will forgo even the greatest temptation to satisfy this second strongest drive.
I think this is why some people here are not keen on tit bit training as this activates prey drive and the animal will only take interest providing there is nothing offering a greater reward such as running across the road after a cat and a thousand and one other distractions. Dogs responding to tit bits or toys are not being obedient they simply see the article (food toys etc) as better than anything else around IN THAT SECOND. Dogs rewarded on pack drive are fundamently obedient AND enjoy it, they activly seek to please, are more confident than most dogs (because of the consistency) and stand out a mile by their close and obvious bond.
So behaviourists are everyone who trains their dog, that means YOU.
Having said that there are some people actually call themselves ‘behaviourist’ ‘therapist’ ‘counsellor’ etc etc.
These are commercial terms designed to influence sales of the service and add some mystery around dog training, as if it is not accessible to ordinary people, it IS accessible to all with the right trainer.
Most people describing themselves as behaviourists or therapists belong to UKRBC or one of many equivilent PLC’s.
The UKRBC has a full name, it is The United Kingdom Regster of Cannine Behaviouists LTD. It is a profit making PLC registered at company house, its registration number is 04120030. It works on a similar basis to Dynorod and dozens of others by the commercial advertising of its members and commercialy useing sales talk for its methods.
Banger and Mike have outlined the standards of competancece.

HI Penny

I think many people really misunderstand the use of titbit training as it has been called on here, and think the poor owner has to be constantly waving liver under the dog's nose to get its attention! Gawd no !!!

It can end up like that if the owner hasn't been shown properly how to do it, but i trained my BSd with this method initially and, had stunning results - fast sit, down, stay, response to hand signals, and with consistent training and also the introduction of toys we have now moved on from initial training with titbits. We do stilll use them for clicker training new things but always wean her off happily with good results. I'm not saying we haven't had the odd problem but that 's due to the fact she is a spirited babe and has brains <g>, and all in all she is a normal teenager and makes me very proud of her :)

Re the UKRCB, I do understand your concern, but I would really like you to meet a friend of mine!!! She is a member and HATES dog owners being ripped off. Also at the AGM of the UKRCB the accounts are avaiilable for scrutiny and apporoval or not of its members. They are in fact a tiny organisation compared to many and the reason they do things "properly" is because they do wish to be accountable. Believe me these people are truly dedicated and don't charge ridiculous fees - not like Jan Fennell!! :D

Also my friend has been able to pull back a huge amount of dogs from the verge of being pts because of "aggression" or whatever, and she is one of my "heroines". I truly respect her and she would not be a member of any suspect organisation which existed purely to make a profit or to inany way mislead owners.

Lindsay

PS Today he shredded his bed he's never done that before - we thought it had been snowing in his room !

Some of the things you say about max sound very similar about my dog callum, he came from the police, he failed because he was to nervous when on his own, you may recall him if you watched the bbc programe called police dog academy, about the litter they were following, when being tested callum was the one that weed himself, anyway he was very odd to say the least and i was told that they were worried about who to sell him to because if he was not socialised properly could have been potentially in the wrong hands a danger to the public. I took him home and started his training he hated going out for walks and would run back to the house he hated my other half and would hide behind me didnt like people, so i did three dog clubs a week with him two obedience and one ring craft, and at weekends dog shows, fetes, walking down the highstreet anything to get him into a crowd, and ring craft was great because he had to stand there and let people go over him, in some cases he would back off and start to growl but i would not allow this behaviour, it was something i was not prepared to except from him, and dealt with it accordingly, in my earlier comments on this subject, i said how he behaved when he got to what i call the terrible twos, really starting to push his luck, i have never been one to back down from a dog unless of course i have seen that it is going to rip my throat out, having worked with some gsds that do behave like that. Would max tolerate you telling him off or would he challenge you even more by then following it with a bite, it is hard to tell without seeing his body language, how he reacts to you, like i said before weather he is just trying it on or if he really means it and could cause some serious damage and beleive me i have seen some nasty bites, who does most of the looking after of him, because he seems to be worse with your dad, is that right, maybe your dad could start feeding him, if he doesnt already, then he may be able to get some control over him with regards to his feeding regime, which would give some control to your dad over max instead of the other way round, im no expert, im just trying to think of some things that may help, my dog callum is a lot better but not through a lot of time and patience with him, but he does have one big problem that i only found out about recently, and that is he does not like having strangers in the house, and is very confrontational, he stands right next to that person, growling deeply, daring them to move, so now if anybody comes round he is put straight upstairs because it is not worth the risk of him biting someone, yet i can show him without any problems at all, dogs are very strange creatures, ive worked with shepherds for nine years and i am still learning!!

metpol
Your advice seems sound.
I think the answer has to be not to let them get away with it the first time. Like children they will push the boundries and it must not be allowed. A short sharp shock is better than all these months of grief. I also believe that dogs are very good at sussing out people and an assertive dog needs an assertive owner just like a nervous dog would probably not do well with a bossy owner. I bet a lot of dog trainers would like to swap the dogs and their owners sometimes !
I read somewhere that a dog trainer was called in to a dog who was pushing his luck re behavior, aggresion etc and at the first sign of trouble they pushed the dog to the ground and pinned it there for a good 5 mins, the dog changed his attitude to the trainer straight away. I am sure many will throw their arms up in horror but it makes sense to me.
Sometimes it may be necessary to admit that your dog and yourself just do not go well together and its time for a divorce, you both may be better off with another partner.
Ted

Mike...drives..
Drives in dogs are the underlying foundations to the entire behaviour of all dogs.
They come from its ancestor, the Wolf, but they are changed almost beyond recognition in the degree and balance, all good working dogs have high drives which are well balanced, if they are imbalance a working dog will not really be capable of its breed working purpose.

Drives are the foundations upon which all trainers train dogs, having said that no pro trainer will accept all dogs brought to them. In human terms drives are what motivate a dog to the limits of its genetic learning ability and nerve threshold, a dog cannot be trained beyond those limits whatever they are in the individual dog.

There are 3 principle drives which encompass the entirety of the dogs personality,
They are the Fight or Flight Drive, The Prey Drive, Pack Drive.However under these drives comes a whole family of individual behavioural drives.

E.G. The prey drive is what you are experiencing most of the time your out with your dog, it sniffs in scrub or anywhere, it chases balls, it might stalk other dogs, animals, it might roll in other animal muck the reason is to camoflague and hide its own smell and get closer to its 'prey' without detection, the same impulse is why some dogs eat other dog muck.

The prey drive is the foundation of hunting and consequently eating and prey drive behaviour is the foundation of early work training, it's a drive where you can play with the dog to teach it to work.

Most trainers use food as the foundation used to heighten the prey drive for early tracking. Dogs are natural scavengers and they all, regardless of breed, take readily to the tracking excercises, a tit bit is placed ever several yards untill the dog starts to put its nose to the ground on command and follow a pre-laid track.

I often wonder why we never see more mongrels both in tracking and scent work in general. UK is so far behind the rest of Europe and USA in their levels of training ability with dogs. Ground zero had an abundance of mongrel sniffer dogs trained to search for bodies, but here it seems even getting someone to train for a standard emergancy recall seems an impossibility, anyway that’s a small part of the working of the prey drive.

The pack drive is the foundation drive which trainers use for the formation of the rank and consequent desirable compatible behaviour of the individual dog, this done in the obedience training and is a follow through of the framework laid down in the litter.

Rewarding the dog in pack drive is vital for the close bonding and consequent good, problem free behaviour. The rewards for the obedience part of training are praise based, when I say praise based I mean the praise is the biggest thing in the dog’s life during training. It is pack acceptance and pack drive is the second strongest drive next to the flight part of the fight and flight drive.

The flight drive is essential for the survival of the individual and his consequent ability to reproduce himself and perpetuate the survival of the species.

The pack drive is essential for the survival of the pack, supports the survival of the individuals within the pack and consequently the species.

A male dog, even a dominant, will accept recall with pleasure and reliability away from a bitch on heat if trained and rewarded properly in pack drive.

The same dog rewarded in prey by tit bits will respond to the attraction it values most, it will not come to handler because the handler is in control of the dog,only if the dog prefers food to a bitch on heat.

The above is a very, very basic, minimal and inadequate description of drives, but find a pro trainer and they will teach you as part of the program.

Hi metpol fan - your dog Callum sounds a bit like Max. Unfortunately I didn't see the program to which you refer and can answer your questions quite easily. When he was sim months he would challenge me and not back off but now seems to back off if I increase the stakes. What do you mean you would not allow the behaviour to continue ? How did you stop the bad behaviour ?

Max does back down only if phyiscally challenged. By that I mean if you tell him no he wont back down but if you stand up and move towards him he will run. But as my dad found out the other day he will not back down from strangers and anyone who dares interrupt his challenge on say our next door neighbour will get a warning bite.

When Max was younger he did use to do the same thing to me, but I have become more aloof with Max and will not back down from a challenge. We do have wrestling matches but I always make sure I win re-inforcing his perception that I am stronger than him as I was advised never to let him get a physical advantage over me because of this. He does occaisional challenge me by mouthing on my wrists for attention and will not stop until Im out of my seat - saying no to him does not diffuse the situation and he ignores a verbal reprimand. Max also used to suffer from submissive urination after separation but we dismissed this as a puppy trait as he has not done this for a few months now.

Another strange trait we have noticed is that he will lean his backside on my dad in order to get stroked, then when my dad strokes him he moans in a medium tone pitch vocal sound - talk about mixed signals. This is one of the things that confuses us - he initiates attention seeking and when he gets it complains about it. Maybe one of the things we are doing wrong is let him initiate petting but he has so many cute tricks to get your attention such as the cute paw motion and nudging. If you ignore him nudging he grabs your sleeve - if you ignore the sleeve tugging he nips your wrist or ankle - pretty difficult to ignore. I have found that hitting a newspaper on a table (crack sound) does make him stop when he decides he wants to play tug of war with your arms (sleeves) or legs (trousers). Has anyone experienced this kind of behaviour before ?

HI BAnger

I feel there is a big clue to all the problems with Max in your most recent post here, everything blurry has suddenly clicked into place, especially the bit about challenging, backing down (or not) and also the playfights.....Max is getting so very many mixed messages here it almost makes me cry :(

It is good to play but the way you have described it *sounds* almost like a rough battle of wills and if this has been happening since you have had Max, or even for a while, this is going to be a huge part of the problem. You have basically been teaching Max to be the dog he has become...I am not trying to upset you, you obviously love him a great deal, but if Max is going to stay alive you have to start understanding what makes him tick, and radically change your percetion of him. Sorry to be blunt but I can't think of how else to put this :).

Don't think so much about all the challenges and the rest....just chill out with him and stop those rough fights....play "gently" with a Kong or something.It will take a long time, to rectify all of this and any advice you have been given may have made him worse first of all - that is what happens, it is called the extinction burst of the previously unacceptable behaviour. It shows that in fact you are succeeding :) but this is the stage at which many do give up.

Dogs are all different and the dog you had before may have been fine with this sort of dog/owner relationshiop but not Max.....he does not need shock collars, or even IMHO punishment or anything else but clear and kind leadership (firm if necessary but not harsh) and a good relationshiop with you.

YOu need to find your own way, and with all the advice it is difficult .....there is a lot of conflicting advice, too :( ... but I am certain it is the relationshop between the 2 of you that needs guidance, as Max is one confused boy. Hence the biting, mouthing, leaping around etc.

What i am trying to say is that it almost certainly IMHO is not breeding or any other problem; I feel Max is confused and in a constant state of conflict.

It may appear that a method isn't working, but for instance do you still play with hin in the way you have described? As if you do, it will negate, IMHO, any other work .....no offence meant here, Banger :)

Lindsay

Dear Bangor,
I have read all of the postings about your experiences with your dog Max. Metpol had some wonderful points on the concepts of responsible actions and dominance. What he/she said and you were attempting to do with "wrestling and showing whose boss" does have validity, except not exactly how you are going about doing it. By actively wrestling Max, you demonstrate that he has no choice but to accept you as boss based on physical prowess. How does this work when you are not around and no one else is physical with him? What about when he reaches adulthood, you've set the stage to make the physical challenge then. It's setting a bad precident for your father and others who should not enter this dangerous game. He might be a wonderful dog for 80% of the time, but you cannot rely on him that other 20%. It only takes a second for something really bad to happen.

Here are some suggestions that might help to work with Max. First of all, it sounds as if there is no consistency or calmness in your relationship with him. He's a teenager, he'll feed off of the high emotions and bounce even higher. Do not play contact games with him. No tug toys, no getting on the floor and wrestling him, pulling on clothes = quiet ejection from the room. Do it physically, but with nothing other than a "no" and "out" ...It is past time that he learns that your hands and arms are no-contact areas! Mouthy puppies learn this at a young age that play immediately stops when they get too rough and they're chastised and ignored by mom & sibs. It seems that he has forgotten all of this by now.

This is an applicable variation on the dominance theory....I learned this in AKC dog training as a first step before anything else. Figure out about a half hour of free time on a daily basis. Don't schedule it around feedings or walks. You and Max go into a room away from others. Be relaxed about it. Maybe quiet music should be playing. Take a book/magazine with you. If you think you need his lead, use it, but make no issue out of it. Have him sit and then lie down.

Don't talk to him other than telling him one time to stay. Then slowly rest yourself so that you are lying with his neck under your right or left arm. Since he's much larger than my dogs, you might be almost draped over him. Whatever works. This has to be comfortable to be here for about 15-20 minutes for you. At least, that's your goal to work up to this point. He might lie quietly for 5 minutes and then decide to get up. Don't let him, but don't talk to him. Just pull him back down by the underneath of his collar.
He is there at your convenience, not his. It might be that he goes to sleep. Let him. Use the time to read and relax. If he does struggle at first, make him do what you want until he physically relaxes. Then just give him about five minutes to let him adjust. Then sit up. Work up to the longer time. Don't let this end on a negative and stressful fight, whatever you do. Make it positive for both of you--that's why you adjust his start time for this. If 20 minutes is too long, then make it shorter.

When you end this time alone with him, just sit up, but continue to ignore him. When you leave the room, don't say anything to him. Let him think a bit and trust me, he will doggy style. If he has no problems with you doing this or later on if he does....have your dad do this and everyone else in the household.

I knew people who were still having to reinforce their "alphaness" in this manner until the dog reached mental maturity because of their personalities and especially being intact males. It really helped them out a lot. It is much easier to do for everyone in the household than physically wrestling and keeps everyone calmer.
Your dog has some serious issues to work out and needs to be "restarted." This will not fix everything that is wrong with him, but hopefully it will be a start.
Good luck and I wish you all the best.
Sara
By the way, when he is sitting quietly somewhere in the house behaving himself, quietly praise him for being "right." Give him positive feedback when he is doing what he should.

this really is one clever dog--hes making sure he gets the best available to him, --i agree with tballard-im of the veiw that the very FIRST time they display unwanted and unnaceptable behaviour that its stopped as soon as it started, -its a dam site easier pinning down a youngster thats trying it on than allowing it to escalate to the dog biting----it seems like youve tried very hard but it also sounds like its in the dogs makeup to be this way,-as you said he growled at the forst training class as a baby----just a couple of things id like to ask you--what did you do that time at the classes when it growled--did you have hands on with the dogs mother when you picked him up,-is he allowed upstairs at all,

All the trainers and behaviourists we have seen have said Max is an extremely intelligent dog. But hes also VERY persistant and tireless. If he wants your attention he WILL get it by hook or by crook. I dont know if you have read any of my other postings but I think I said on one of them that for attention seeking usually he will try three things. 1. Nudging your hand. 2. Pulling your sleeve then if all else fails 3. Nipping ankles or wrists and is very persistant at this, ignoring all chastisement. The only way to stop this activity is to chase him (which he loves). We've tried the room ejection but it doesn't seem to work, he just comes back in as bold as brass and starts the process all over again, even after the 5th ejection. If I didn't know better I would think that Max has read all the doggy training books before me.

As for praising him when he's quiet - we do this - but you get the feeling that he isnt listening - why isnt he listening - one trainer I think hit this on the mark and that is because he thinks he is top dog - again how we convince him he's not is another ball game- We've had all sorts of conficting advice from 'experts' and maybe this is why Max is so unpredictable. Also when you first see Max he grabs your sleeve and pulls it - does anyone know what this means - is it a way of trying to lead you showing dominance or just a submissive act. Today he also did this to my mum and urinated on the floor - talk about conflicting signals - this is the sort of stuff that behaviourists dont explain and in order for us to understand Max we need to know why he does what he does so we can treat it accordingly. Another gem is the Ignore Bad Behaviour. For example if hes stealing a tissue ignore him and he wont do it again. Rubbish we've tried this numerous times and he just eats them. He started later with cloths, stealing them from benches and sinks. And now he's into soap bars - god knows what these are going to do to his insides.

Hi Banger,
Yes Max is extremely intelligent, he has your family well trained to do what HE wants. He is persistant and tireless because it sounds as if you will do what he wants as long as he persists. Why should he change? You have taught him that by your past behavior. It takes only one time to create a bad habit, but it can take over a hundred times to exorcise it out of him. The room ejection theory takes more than 5 or 10 times to work because he really has to believe that you will not accept his behavior. By chasing him, you are no longer in control of the situation.

I'm not trying to make you upset and I completely respect your dedication to Max. You have been trying so hard over a long time period that you must be tired and frustrated. I really feel for you. Even he doesn't sound totally happy with the way things are....pulling and the urinating. What a confused dog. No, ignoring bad actions like tissue isn't the right way, you are right about that. But chasing him gets a rise out of you that he wants....attention & a power that he has changed your behavior.
Since this dog is smart and knows he can wear you all down, like some two year old kids I know, before you try anything else, you might want to just sit down with the family and try to plan things out a little for consistency.

Just out of curiosity, does Max have an area around the living room or dining area that is just his--- a soft bed or something--that gets him out of the way of traffic, but that he can still see what's going on? Perhaps it might work to "send" him there when he's acting up. Just use a lead to keep him there at first. I"m not talking as a punishment, just somewhere to go and a new "right" way to behave. BTW, you teach him to go there when things are calm, not while chaos is occuring. Somehow the grabbing on the hand and legs has to stop. He can do some serious damage soon or someday by this very bad habit.
By the way, it's usually the smart dogs that do give the most problems because they have their own agendas at times. Dumb dogs should be better valued as easier to train. ;-)
Good luck and best of wishes.

Hi banger, careful with the cloths. one of mine swallowed a sock,I saw it happen but couldn`t stop him. watched him for 3 days, no sign of it coming out.3 night he started vomiting,following morning at the vet with a very poorly dog who had to be opened up & have sock rmoved.TTFN
Christine.

HI BAnger

Sorry, me again :)

I find this so interesting and it's great that you keep coming back to keep us updated!

I gave a big smile when i read your last post, and also i agree with Eophraiga(?)

The room ejection does work :) yes, it does!!!!! But you have to do it over a period of time, preferably without ANY interaction. So, for instance, even grabbing his collar to put him out is - to Max - a reaction from you and fun for him!

SO - use a lead in the house, and don't speak. Don't catch his eye. Keep your body language calm and normal. Out he goes, and back again within say, 3 minutes.You mayhave ot do this many many times, for several weeks. He has been reinforced for his inappropriate behaviuor lots by - heaven forbid!!! - his favourite game of chase!!! :rolleyes:

Do you see what is happening....do you see the difference?

I agree with Eophragia (sorry if that's spelt wrong!) . YOu are a caring owner and must be frustrated and tired, but YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

I reckon the shock collar probably made him bite your dad, because he started to associate your dad/the whole barking at window scenario, with the shock. Dogs do this - they dont' think like us., obviously or life could be a lot easier <BG>. John is right, the person who recommended this line of action was'nt improving the situation at all. It is difficult though, isn't it, when all and sundry seem to know about your dog and what to do :D

Re the grabbing and then the urinating - classic sign of great conflict in Max's mind. Really illustrates Max's confusion :(

He has been allowed to wrestle - and i am sure this means grab and hold and play - and so he does this elsewhere as this is what Dad(Banger) enjoys, and this is how you both have fun together. BUT, it also makes Dad cross so he urinates.....IMHO wrestling is one big cause of over mouthiness in dogs.

I do believe all this can be rectified, I so hope that all is becoming clearer ..... there is light at the end of the tunnel, I am sure :)

Lindsay

My youngest bitch who came back to me at 8 1/2 months had quite a mouthing problem (problem to her past owners, fun for her). I found when she came back that any physical form of stopping this just made her think you were joining in the game, and the ignoring her while she jumped up and grabbed your sleeve, shoelaces, trousers etc was hard to bear. I came back to using my favourite elkhound noise moderator, the Water spray bottle set to a good jet! Each time she got over excited and grabby she would get this squirted right in the face, and a calm but firm no command given, followed quickly by a command such a come, sit, down (once she knew the last two), and praised her very quietly for being good.

Because I have had my children as only year old tots whn I had my first two dogs, Highly strung BSD, then first Elkhound, all rough or physical games with people were totally banned. I have never ever played wrestling type games with any of my dogs, but have often reinforced my right to use physical restraint on the dogs!

The persistance I understand well, as they want the interactions on their terms. If I have had a dog being persistant in getting my attention then I have called them over an placed them in a down (using restraint if neccesary) and continued doing what I was doing, watching TV, using computer whatever. After 5 minutes i mught take the dog out to toilet or take it for a walk, or play a game!

My oldest Elkhound bitch can be bloody minded and attention seek by barking. She will ask to go outside, then ask to come in again, always when she feels ignored whern I am busy with something else, especially if payingattention to one of the others (she used to get like this when i used to feed budgies I once had). In her case I will often put her in a doiwn at my feet for a few minutes and then let her out, doing a sit stay by the open door first, so that she gets to do what she wants or needs, but when I say! If she has a day of repetition of this, I will often simply shut the kitchen door on her for half an hour (time out) so that she realises her constant attention seeking is getting opposite results to those she wanted.

My obedience friend says my two oldest Elkies are rather flat, and would be hopeless to 'Work' Obedience, whereas the next one down who has been allowed to be alittle fizzier (children older when she came along) would be fine. As I don't need my dogs to perform, this suits me, as the two old girls know they have to be calm around people. Kizi on the other hand will stand on her back feet against people with the least encouragement, whixh she gets from doggy folk, and the fact she walks up you evr so gently and is a smarmy petite thing, that everyone says, "oh don't tell her off, she's alll right!"

The Nothing in Life Is Free program, can really work and be non confrontational. Also I would keep a lead on the dog, so that you can control his actions without coming near his teeth. Say he is barking at the window, you should call him to you with a command for an alternative behaviour, for which you can reward him (voice tit bit toy etc, but preferably things that will keep him clam), if he ignores you, you have the lead that allows you to enforce the command, then make him earn a reward by doing a sit, down (my favourite). On walks do not let him sniff or stop to urinate when he wants to, but let him do it when you say, go play, be clean, whatever.

At home if he runs ahead of you to go through doors, especially to front door when bell rings, call him back, do sit and wait, using the lead, and walk ahead of him, then call him to come with you (or better have someone hold the lead and keep him in a stay until you have answered the door, or gone into other room, then return and givve a release command. Keep all praise quiet and calm,as the commands are. Put yourself in the position that you always win, you tell him what to do, and ensure you are in a position to enforce it, if you can't don't command him so he gets to ignore you.

If he comes over and starts nudging you, go get his lead on him, and make him down, release command, and a pat, then send him away (take him into the kitchen and shut door for a few minutes, then go and ask him to rejoin you. If he is lying down quietly, occasionally call him to you (if he doesn't respond keep a lead on, and make him come) give him a pat, and send him back (or if you haven't that control yet, make him down by your feet quietly).

Everything that happens to him you (and the other family members) are in control of, this will show him that all initives come from you, he doesn't make things happen, you do, this will reduce his status.

No as yet my dogs are not perfect, far from it, but they do know their place, and yes they are disobedient sometimes, and if it happens I go back to being strict and making them work for their priveledges, and they soon buck up their ideas, though I am not a person who wants a yess sir type of dog, so am lax in a lot of things, bgut they know I am boss.

Brainless, you mentioned my favorite long term program...NILIF...that and the ejection have been my best working projects. I had a friend who I taught the NILIF at dinnertime because her dog was so possessive of the food dish. He finally paid attention to her when he realized she was the only source of food in the family. He had been her husband's dog before they were together and just ignored her completely. I think he went without dinner the first night. He picked it up by morning that she was on the higher level of the pack than he was. No blood shed and it certainly stopped the growling. Going one night without dinner didn't hurt him and it was a kick start to getting him to realize she was in charge. I just love happy endings :-) (sob)

I do think NiLIF can be a very useful, and non confrontational way of asserting yourself. I do recommend it to people who come to the pet obedience class I help at who have Bolshy or attention seeking dogs. I don't think it does any harm, and can do a lot of good, especially with rather soft type owners.

Thanks Lindsay - you have been really helpful and positive. It just feels at times we have the worst behaved dog in the world lol. We didnt just try the ejection five times and give up - I mean five times in a row and he still comes bouncing back in ready for another round. I'm sure he has read all the doggy books at night school because he always looks tired in the morning and have looked under his bed for notes on us (the family). And those times he is pretending to be asleep in the front room hes really watching us weighing us up and planning his next round of mischief. I dont wrestle with Max a lot just now and again when he's full of it but can see how this maybe perceived as a competition thing between me and him so am going to give it up.

Trouble is with the lead in the house it either gets wrapped round something expensive and it gets pulled over or he chews the lead to bits - he knows what were up to I'm sure. We gave up on the shock collar a few weeks ago because it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to him he just ingnores it now and at the time he was barking at the window hadn't had the collar on for weeks. The collar is one of the weakest ones on the market made by Petsafe and we wouldnt advocate one of the stronger ones and he only wore it in the garden on his own - but again probably some bad advice we took to heart from a reputable trainer.

Some trainers have told us to use the rolled up newspaper method but instead of smacking Max with it we make a loud crack noise on a table with it to get his attention rather than use the 'hands on' approach recommended by another trainer.

Anyway I've waffled enough - thanks again Lindsay for Johns info we'll let you know how we get on.

Golly what a time you're having, I can fully understand how frustrated you must be feeling, I had a GSD a while ago who although not as extreme as Max was certainly a challenge, happily we did get there in the end but every so often I needed to re-inforce my alpha position by going back to basics. One thing I would suggest is to stop the rough play with him, poor Max is confused enough without you encouraging him to challenge your authority:)
have you read the Dog Listener, although I don't agree with some of Jans ideas the initial amichien bonding is invaluble, but only if all who have contact with Max follow the procedure(we're currently following it with our 5 mth pup but I'm having to train my hubby as much as the dog!)
Most of all though don't give up, Max is still young enough to change even though I'm sure you must despair of that sometimes! make a plan of action and stick to it, imagine how you would feel if you were playing a game and someone kept changing the rules, thats how Max must feel at the moment. Good luck!

Hi Banger,
Forgive me for not replying for the last few days (been in hospital)...I haven't forgotton about your dog and from reading further from your posts am absolutely convinced that you haven't fully instigated the NILF programme that I'm positive could help you, your family and most of all your dog. Did you go read up some of the histories on the site I linked to?....here it is again in case you didn't:

http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/ (read June 2001 and see if it doesn't sound familiar)

You seem to be willing to try all sorts to get Max back on track and that's great but, do him a big favour and read through this site...try to fully understand the NILF prog' because IMHO you only understand some of it...One thing about owning dogs, you have to be more stubborn/smart they they could ever be. Somebody has suggested keeping a lead on Max in the house and you're already giving excuses as to why it wouldn't work, JMO but with that attitude is it any wonder your dog thinks he can get the better of you? If the lead's too long that it gets caught up or chewed, then buy one of the short handle leads and watch him at all times...end of (that) problem! I agree with the rest that yes you're a caring owner trying to do right, but the frustrated one is (MHO again) Max!!

Hi Jacqui - unfortunately the scenario does sound a little familiar but Max doesn't suffer seizeures. I know what you're saying and we have took a look at ourselves and agreed that Max doesn't get anything without doing something for it. But what we need to address is Max's pack drive - where is it. Maybe he doesnt have one! Barking at the next door neighbour is much more appealing to Max than coming back for a treat or his dinner. But when inside food is more attarctive than anything we say to him. Do you see the pattern emerging ? I have read most of the articles and found them very interesting as Max seems to have all of them lol ! But seriously I read these articles when you first put up the link and found a lot of important information and some of the stories, particularly the growling German Shepherd at all but one of their family when eating reminds me of Max at certain times - but the trouble is he doesn't do it all the time so his status must be Alpha, Beta and lower depending on what time of day it is and I'm pretty sure this is the fundamental problem. Now this has to be down to us (the family) we are obviously confusing Max. We have tried Jan Fennels Amichien Bonding for about two months, but the only thing that seemed to work was a 4 week residential obediance course. The effects of the course changed Max into a well behaved dog for two months. Most of the time he was there he was kenneled and when he was out was trained - the trainer spent a week trying to get near Max - he said he was like a wild dog when he first went into his kennel. So what makes us different to Max's residential trainer - well thats something we are going to try and work out - and a bit of self analysis is called for. We have also been contacted by Max's prospective new trainer and she doesn't want to get involved because she has a commercial to train some dogs for and has referred us back to the behaviourist we had before. Anyway this is not going to be sorted overnight so I will let you know how we get on. The other thing was that we've tried the indoor lead and outdoor lead and the results were what I put in the above post, but we obviously need to look at it again.

i really feel for you-its so obvious how much you care and how much you're trying-----john rogerson once said to me if a dog is becoming top dog in a household the easiest way to stop it, -put the dog in a kennel and run- then that will his place and yours will be yours,-it might be worth thinking about-although with a dog as smart as he sounds it might just frustrate the problem :)

Just a quick one to answer your questions, with regards to how i sorted callum out, when i get a new puppy i always make sure he knows who is boss right from the very beginning, i usually tell a puppy off, useing the same methods as its mother would use, ie scruff him on the back of the neck gently, followed by a no command, i find this works very well when they are young, as they get older i tend to put my hands each side of there head and shake them to tell them off, again followed by a firm no command, you really must install the alpha leader in the pack ie your household as soon as you get a dog, especially when it is young, as someone else said earlier it is much harder to reprimand an older dog than it is to deal with a puppy, i was lucky with callum in that he did back down and did not continue this behaviour, because if he had have done i would have been in some serious trouble, as he is rather a large gsd. someone put earlier metpol he/she just to clear that up im a she and my real name is diane, hope this explains what i meant.

It's late and I'm tired but I just thought I'd add this one for prospective or first time dog owners you never know it may even prevent this sort of thing again.

Firstly never let a dog know you're scared as then they tend to play on this. My Mother's scared to death of ALL/ANY animals and both my dog and cat can sense this and take the total mickey out of her- the cat strolls up to her brushing against her then jumps on her knee, padding it down sort of thing before he lays on her. He's never usually bothered with anyone else that comes to my house and to see him- honestly he knows she doesn't like it! The dog follows her never leaving her making her on edge until she leaves! I think it's quite funny because they wouldn't dare to behave like this with me! They are so bad that when she babysits for my children she has to have them sleep at her house she gets so scared at mine!

Secondly I was told that when they're young etc you NEVER let them win if you have a game of tug with them- you always make them feel the underdog with you.

I'm not an expert and don't claim to be one but this is what I was told and all I can say is it worked for me! I hope someone out there may find this info of some use!

I agree diane and we came accross the Scruff shake very early in Max's puppyhood and have used it. I'm sure he remembers it but I have read that dogs live for the moment and reassess their pack status all the time, especially pushy GSDs. And to scruff shake a 38kg teenager takes some doing - especially when he already has his eye on your hand and has learnt how to stop you getting hold of his collar using his teeth - I dont mean by biting but by making it very uncomfortable for you to grab him. Also I think that Max needs to know he's at the bottom of the pack, because when I am not around how do my mum and dad handle him - they haven't got the physical strength or desire to scruff shake so a non confrontational method might be more acceptable. Up until recently I had been using the physical approach to quell Max's challenges, whilst ok for me, my dad got a bite when he tried the same thing recently. I think also someone else posted thoughts on this too - which convinced me to try and think of another way of reducing Max's perception of his status within our pack. In other words we need a way of convincing Max his status is not Alpha or Beta but bottom of the pack - we are still thinking about this one.

Have you tried a chain lead that attaches to his normal collar, Banger? That way he can't do any damage to it LOL! :D

Lindsay

Hi Banger, me again :-)

I don't know because you've never said.....does Max sleep on the bed and get up on other furniture? If he's on the bed, the closer he is to your pillow tells you what he thinks of his position as top dog in the household. Human beds = human status. Banish him...a puppy floor bed, a crate or something that's safe for him. Just make sure he doesn't spend the night/day on the bed. He won't be happy, but trust me, primo resting places and food are the basic rights of the Alpha leader and family to grant noblesse oblige.

Another point is his placement in eating in relation to your family. Since he is beta and lowest of the pack, he should be receiving his food last and after everyone is finished eating. I don't use the term "omega" because that usually is the scapegoat and persecuted one of a pack. Not quite suitable for this situation. Of course, this is a gross simplification of how pack life works.

I don't know if you keep his bowl full all day, but only giving his dish to him once or twice a day is one of the easiest ways to establishing your dominance. Personally, I believe a slight hunger drive is safer and easier to use than a shock collar when one is trying to get the attention of another animal. It sounds as if he's been overfed and overtreated to take you and the good life for granted.

Most dogs think their owners are the most brilliant hunters in the world. We can disappear for a half hour and come back with oodles of food. :-) Those that don't, might not be associating their owners as pack leader.

Good luck. I hope this give you some more ideas to mull over.

Big smiles....:)

My 2 BSd's slept on my bed for all their lives!!! :rolleyes:

It was lovely and cuddly in the winter :D

I know what you are saying though, I suspect if the relationship is OK in the first place beds don't matter, but maybe if there are problems it might do?

LIndsay

Yep, you got it in a nutshell. :-) It's only a problem when there is an existing problem.
I love snuggling up with the pups. But I don't have any dominance issues going on. My dogs sleep nightly on the bed along with me and my husband. What's funny, is that at 4:30am when he rolls over to turn off the alarm...one immediately oozes up from our foot area to put her body next to his pillow. He can't easily lie back down...so it's a very efficient motivation to get up. :-)

Hi again <g>

Max doesn't sleep on the bed he has his own bed in his own room, although he does sit on the settee with me, maybe we shouldn't allow that. He will sometimes growl at you when you tell him to get off and sometimes he just gets off like a little angel lol. Usually he jumps on after he has been trying to get your attention by sleeve pulling but after five minutes usually goes to lie on the floor where he can stretch out.

As for the eating he eats in his 'den' - his room where his bed is - I don't know wether he is aware of us eating. We separate him from us when we eat. If we eat in front of him he has a terrible habit of drooling all over the carpet. He has his food at 9am and 5pm. We usually eat after Max but he tends to be put in his room or in the garden while we are eating as the temptation to steal off our plates is too great for him. He also has a habit of licking all the benches down in the kitchen and wont be told to get off either - always results in him being pulled off - and if there is any food on the bench left he will steal it. He's had numerous sandwiches, cream cakes and alike - you can't take your eye off him for a minute.

Another weird habit he has, and I only noticed this last nite, when he's on the settee next to you and you are watching TV, he stares at you. You look at him, he looks away, then you look away, he starts staring at you again, I think hes imagining me as a pork chop <BG>

You look at him, he looks away, then you look away, he starts staring at you again, I think hes imagining me as a pork chop <BG>

One of my friends dogs used to lick you before she bit you - we always said she was licking you clean first :D

Fiona

Hi

I'm not really qualified to reply as we are waiting for our first puppy - but I've read that having the dog lie down for a long 20 or 30 minute enforced stay helps to enforce your position.

Butter

<<<Yep, you got it in a nutshell. It's only a problem when there is an existing problem>>>

Sheeesh, and if this isn't one of those times!!!!
Banger, I've said it before and I'm saying it again, in fact, I'm shouting it at the top of my voice...Max IS crying out for the NILF programme!!! Not your version where you try something for all of '5 times' and then give up, not where one minute he's allowed on the sofa, the next it's off. I mean 100% from now on ignore the dog for everything but his feed and water (and even then he's given a curt/firm command to sit for them) for at least a week. He's given a place on the floor where he can sleep and that's it, no sofa's, no beds, block off upstairs if you have to....confine him to one room if it makes it easier...by the end of the week he's going to be wondering what on earth he did to lose all those priveledges he never had to work for....well that's easy and he'll soon work it out too and that's he bit a member of his pack...For him to realise exactly what you're trying to tell him (and that's that he's been relegated...big time!!) there should be no eye contact from anyone to the dog...no voice interaction from anyone to the dog (apart from the firm, one syllable commands)....After at least a week he can start earning his food, command, praise, reward....same for a scratch, command, praise, reward....if at any time he comes demanding your attention again then send him back off to his place...he doesn't get to demand anything ever again. It will take loads of time and commitment from all your family members for this to work...It's not Max who really needs the training, yep, it's you guys....Max very probably received this type of training at the accademy he went to and so you know it can work if you're of a mind to stick to it....you say he came back a different dog....that's because he had rules and reason in his life and was much happier for it. A dog who knows his place in the pack is a happy dog who has no need to challenge it's pack members...only the confused and unhappy get into trouble!....JMHO though, as ever! ;)

I have to agree with you jacqui, if the physical contact ie by shaking him does not work as was discussed earlier, and what worked for my dog, then this sounds like the next step, i have used this method before, and they really dont like being ignored, they behave like spoilt brats because the attention has been taken away from them and now they have to earn it back to be praised, but as you say it isnt something that is going to happen over night, banger you really have to be strict with yourself and so do the rest of the family, i cant think of anything else to try, so give it a go, but be persistant, good luck.

I do feel the NILIF programme done absolutely consistently as described by Jacqui above would be very beneficial, and probably solve a lot of problems, maybe all of them!!! The thing i like about this programme is that the dog has to work out what to do - what is acceptable and so on. It also means the owner does not have to be physically stronger than the dog, and the relationship is improved almost always.

The only slight reservation i have is that a dog like Max is going to give a great big fat "extinction burst" (IMHO) and that he will probably try really hard to get the fun and attention (albeit with mixed messages) that he has previously been used to.

So I reckon he may try sleeve grabbing, nipping etc and all those other things even more, and that they will get worse before they get better...perhpas this is what you meant, BANger, when you said that you had done the NILIF before and it hadn't worked? . This possible worsening of behaviour can be ignored in a small dog very well, but not in a big lad like Max is.

My suggestion would be to wear really tough old clothes and even welly boots or whatever helps :D.

Jacqui, I wholeheartedly agree with much of what you say :), but do you have any suggestions for tackling this possible reaction of Max's? As I think this is often where owners give up, as they find it impossible to not react to a powerful dog. I am genuinely interested and hoping to learn something here :)

I think too, this is where sometimes the actual practicality of living everyday life with a "big galloof" <g> and the suggestions made by a B. can be at odds with one another. The owner may feel they have failed, their dog is impossible, and the B. useless, but I feel the main problem has possibly been in fact a communication one....by the way i am speaking generally in this last paragraph, not necessarily regarding Max's situation :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

<<<but do you have any suggestions for tackling this possible reaction of Max's? As I think this is often where owners give up, as they find it impossible to not react to a powerful dog.>>>

I agree with you Lindsay, yes, lots of owners give up at this point. All I can suggest is persistance...patience....being more stubborn than your dog (for me that bit comes easy!) ;) If Max should try to nip/mouth to get your attention then use your voice and growl at him! Sounds corny doesn't it but I find it works better than any hands on scruff shakes etc, especially with a mouthy dog. Growl an 'ahh ahh' at him, turn your back and go do something non dog/Max related...when he gives up trying to get your attention (and he will) then you call him to you, ask him to sit and quietly give him a scritch...he'll soon learn that attention is earnt and not demanded.

To give you an idea Banger that you don't have to be hands on <<<< The thing i like about this programme is that the dog has to work out what to do - what is acceptable and so on. It also means the owner does not have to be physically stronger than the dog, >>>> like Lindsay says, I weigh at least 10lbs lighter than my own 'galloof' who in the wrong hands could be an unholy terror! Gus lives his life in a partial NILF...he has to earn everything even though I'd love to thoroughly spoil him to bits....if I did and I didn't know anything about his sort of temperament/drives, it could well be me having the same problems as you! With an attitude like Max's though you really do just have to be one 'paw' ahead all the time. My other female GS is the total opposite and could quite easily be allowed on sofa's etc with no thought on her part of taking over the role of leader...Gus is the one though that 'if I gave him an inch, you can bet your granny he'd take the mile'!!! The worst possible thing I can ever do to Gus is ignore him and I'm positive it would work for Max too!:)

Ok everybody we're trying all these suggestions, but we did try the NILIF program for quite a while, but the only thing we found worked was residential training. I'm going to call his residential trainer and ask him for some tips on how he got Max to stop mouthing. For example today when I got up, I ignored him for five minutes and he didn't jump on me once (I was amazed but hid this), then I called him over, go him to sit and gave him some affection. Then I thought I'll try eating my bowl of bran flakes in front of him, I was amazed, he didn't try to put his nose in them at all lol. He just sat on the floor and watched telly. But then after I had finished eating, he started. Came over and grabbed my dressing gown sleeve repeatedly. No amount of chastising, growling at him or holding his collar would stop him, the lil git. So I said I've had enough of this and walked off upstairs to get changed. I came back about 20 minutes later and tried to ignore him but lo and behold the paws were on me chest, so I pushed him gently off. Again he tried the sleeve pulling, so I held him by the collar, where he tried to get his mouth round my wrist making noises. So I held him by the cheeks so he couldnt get his teeth round my wrist. This took about another 20 minutes of holding till he eventually gave up and just lay down. I saw this method on Jan Fennels program on channel 5, the Dog Listener - but the dog calmed down straight away. Maybe its because Max was watching the program too and knows what I'm up to <bg>.

When you say he grabs your sleeve does he do this in a nasty way? Our GSD nibbles at our clothes constantly, he particularly likes cotton/acrylic jumpers. He never means to hurt but sometimes does. If I dry jumpers on radiators he goes searching for them. It is something that he has never grown out of but he isn't aggressive. It is as if Miller just can't help himself. He is well aware that he will get told off for doing it but weighs up the pros and cons and decides that it is worth a slight ear bashing lol. He is a model dog in (nearly) every other way though.

Well of course residential training worked, the people doing it know what they are doing, the dog understood exactly what he was supposed to do and received no mixed signals from you or the rest of your family and everything was fine, until he came home and slipped back to the old routine.

**then I called him over, go him to sit and gave him some affection.**

And totally confused him again, as shown by his following behaviour. You must ignore him, for a long, long time. Not five minutes and then 'pow' attention yhipeeee. Remember it takes 21 days for any behaviour to become a habit.

I wonder if you have ever in the past played with him or interracted after you finish your bran flakes? Perhaps he sees certain times of day, as the time when Banger has fun with Max. just an idea....

I sort of half agree that giving him affection after he was good may have "confused" him...LOL! Normal everyday training, we do normally praise dont we, after a dog has behaved appropriately. Apart from anything else, we want to, we enjoy it! And Max does need to know when he has done the right thing.

HOwever because he is so OTT maybe you should just follow the NILIF, completely. For a while...once a dog has learnt what is required, they can then be treated as Jacqui has said she treats Gus,asking him to do things to get privileges....it comes down to knowing how far we can take things with our individual dogs, doesn't it? I'm very affectionate with my BSD, but almost always ask her to do something for me, before i\ do something for her, as she is very strongminded and pushy individual - bless!

The grabbing of sleeve etc harks to when you had wrestly games I suspect, or partly at least...(the thing i like about you Banger is, you are so honest ;) ). But Max did get a big reaction out of you when he did this. Some dogs even see any form of chastisement, pulling away, shouting or whatever, and especially grabbing of collar, a "reward" because it is a form of interaction. If Max has been used to "rough" games then he may not mind this at all !!

The "ah ah" sound does often work (I use it with mine) but i think perhaps the dog needs to be reasonably sensitive and able to listen a bit, it could depend on how "mad" Max gets!!! :)

If not, and if you can bear it, could you just ignore what he does? Try to stand like a tree and be boring....is this possible?!!?! If you make it really boring for him, he will at some stage get fed up;).

LIndsay

Yes I think it play, because when I try to grab his collar he goes into a play bow. I think he is trying to initiate a game and won't give up until he has got some sort of reaction, and you can't ignore getting nipped which he seems to do after you have ignored his other advances. Hmmm 21 days thats a very useful figure to bear in mind.

I'm usually pretty slow to wake up when I get up, so doubt I have played with Max just after finishing them. Usually he's all over me while Im having them, sticking his nose in my bowl to see what they are and if he would like them and pulling my sleeve, just a different scenario today - he waited till I'd finished them lol.

Although I have noticed that Max tries to initiate the game, which is typical Alpha behaviour, and may be going back to the wrestly games - that's something we're going to have to wait 21 days to see if he gets out of it, lol.

The thing is he doesn't seem to listen (and no he's not deaf - just pretends to be). We have tried the tree method but hes so difficult to ignore and usually starts the nipping phase which you can't ignore cos it hurts. I think he has worked out that if we do the tree thing then he will definately get a reaction by nipping. We try holding our arms up out of the way, so he turns his attention on ankles or bums. He is determined NOT to be ignored <g> I have been told to be totally laid back with Max as he may derive his mood from mine, shepherds are well know for this apparently, but he seems determined to get me out of this lol.

<<<He is determined NOT to be ignored <g> >>>

...And 'bless him' it's working!;) You certainly have your work cut out for you Banger, it's so hard to stay aloof with them when they so desperately want your attention, believe me I know. Sometimes though you just have to stick with it or suffer the consequences (that's where being very stubborn helps!!). Can I ask how much exercise Max gets? Another saying is 'a tired dog is a happy dog'....you don't have to go on mile long runs to get them tired either. It's not just physical excersise they need but mental too. I admit, if the weather is too lousy or I'm not feeling to good the we do inside stuff...I show the dogs something I'm going to hide somewhere in the house, put them in a down stay 'til I've hidden whatever...then send them off to 'find it'...(though I'll never use a pack of cigs with 2 competetive dogs again):D....there's all sorts of things you could do to tire his mind as well as his body.....just another thought!;)

Max gets two half an hour walks a day, sleeps after them, and is 'ready to go' again after that lol. Another thing I've noticed is that after he gets a pat or stroke he starts chasing his tail - anyone know why he does this - is it excitement ?

Ok I have just ordered a book called Dogs are from Neptune - from what I've read there are many cases which seem similar to Max's so I'll let you know if its any help. Thanks Lindsay :D

Ooh that's a good book, Banger, but it could blow your mind LOL!!!!!

Enjoy it!!!

Lindsay

Idle curiosity & following the "Saga of Max".... Not knowing the book at all, but..... If dogs are from Neptune, where are bitches from? :P :D
Amazing how we all managed to get to Earth to meet one another ;)
toodles. :-)

Will let you know what advice we are given by the behaviourist on Monday.