Hello all, Now I know this is a nice board and people are polite on here:) ( couldnt find a smiley for tongue in cheek lol ) but seriously I thought this might be an interesting thread to start. Do you feel that some breed standards are too extreme, thereby causing problems in a breed where breeders take the description one stage too far, and do you feel that the " lets change the breed standard" brigades perhaphs want the change because their dogs are not true to the original standard?

i do agree there are dogs that i feel have been bred to exaggeration , by that i mean they look as if they couldnt live a normal and fulfilled life, on the other hand some breed clubs have changed the breed standards -some to get rid of some exaggerations ,and for the better, a dog should be comfortable in life- if not then surely something should be changed,

When watching Crufts, they showed a short clip of the GSD that won best in breed and I was shocked, it's back legs were so low it was almost wobbling round, I really can't see that was good for the dog. Ingrid

I saw that one too, Ingrid, I was appalled too.I shall probably get some flack, as I know nothing about GSD's, all I know is that 30 years ago they were a very different dog with a diferent temperament and I liked and admired their beayty and bearing, now they have completly changed, for the worse in my untrained eye.

Iagree W.L I saw them on thursday and was shocked at some of them .it is a shame and I dont care what anyone says . they are destroyed . to my knowledge the standard has not been rewritten so why is the structure changed mari

My sentiments exactly, but everyone on this board knows how I feel about the way the GSD has changed for the worse.
The people who show shepherds (I don't mean all, but the more vocal leading lights) seem to have brainwashed or shamed others into thinking that there way is the best and only way.
DON'T SHOOT!!! ITS MY OPINION AND I'M ENTITLED TO IT.

Shadow, I agree with you totally, one of the things I love about shepherds is their lovely ground covering trot, sheer poetry in motion for me but I didn't see it in that dog on Crufts. I'll stick to my straighter backed non standard ones. Ingrid

Me too!!! I don't care if they can't win at Crufts, they win with me.

Hi Phil,I am lucky Labradors havent changed for a long time,obviously there are different types from different kennels but the standard is the same as it always was,great too that we can have our dogs rolling in Mud one day and at top show the next with just a quick wash and brush up.
:) :) no heated rollers,mascara,hairspay and boufant hairstyles :) oh almost forgot no pom poms on bum :)

Hi Mattie, my breed too really , a quick brush, sometimes a beard wash, and ready to go. No sprays, conditioners, ribbons or bows on my lot. Imagine a Wolfhound with a bow in it hair. roflol
I like a dog to look and be able to act like one too!!

cant imagine a pom pom on a bullmastiff's bum lol

sharpei wouldnt be seen wearing anything else but a pom pom on their bum----NOT!!!!!!!!!!

Our Lancashire Heelers are very natural.
And most not so different today as they always were

ours are the same, in the country park in mud and river one day, a good brush, and fit to show! A bath a couple of times a year if you like.

Extremes creep in when a desired trait is over emphasised. Say short back/muzzle wanted, then some folk think shorter is better, and before you know it you have an inflexible dog, or one that has mouth and breething problems and so on. If you read most breed standards they nearly all call for moderation. A lot of them apply to a lot of breeds in description of head or body, but the breeds look nothing like each other!

Hi Phil, no ribbons, but do I think Lewis looks cute with his 'reverse hemi-poodle cut' :D!

I suspect that almost everyone is going to agree with your point ... except where their own breed is concerned. So here is a wobbler designed especially for you :-) Don't you think that the 'great size' aspect of the IW standard has been taken to a point where it is maybe detrimental to the dogs? I don't particularly mean height: deerhounds are almost as tall, and can be taller in individual cases, but they are not as heavy, and it is very unusual to see an overweight deerhound regardless of its build. They also live longer, and going on what longevity figures there are, maybe by as much as 4years on average . I know we don't want IWs that are indistinguishable from deerhounds, or vice versa, but imho, IWs built like brick outhouses are unlikely to be capable of hunting wolves or anything else, and all too often do not lead long and healthy lives.

Oooo Sharon, what a question, now Ive got to use my brain!!!!! That is asking a lot at Friday teatime. OK here goes then. In my opinion IW are now two distinct types. Those that are fine , houndy and sometimes can be mistaken for a Deerhound and the bigger boned much more solid typeThen from these two types are extremes at both ends of the scale. Those that are so fine they couldnt do the job they were originally intended for, and those that are so heavy they can bearly put one foot in front of the other. As you so rightly say " of great size" can be taken two ways, height or build. I try to imagine a dog strong enough to bring down and kill a wolf, or pull the enemy from his horse, but can also run, chase and be very active if neccessary. so a 29" midget is no good, but neither is a 36" blob. My own personal choice is a bitch of approx 32-33" and a dog of 34-35" substantial but not too heavy with good bone and substance, well muscled and athletic. In past years some IW lines seem to have shrunk in height but got broader and others seem to have got much taller but an awful lot finer, neither of which I feel is correct. I am sure there are many people in the breed who would totally disagree with me, but that is the type I aim for when breeding a litter, I know you have seen my Star, and she to me is the right build height and substance for an IW. A good strong solid bitch, who is graceful but athletic, but sure does stride round that ring.

Don't think we'll fall out over any of that Phil :-) I want curves and muscles too, and while a really tall and shapely IW is a sight to behold, a lot of the very tall ones tend to be very straight and boxy, so I'd agree with your heights. That despite the fact that I've got a boy heading for over 35", and had a bitch who was a shade over 34" but was a real athlete :-) (She was considered too 'light' in the ring, but was only shown until she was about 4. In hindsight she was a very slow maturer, and probably didn't look her best until she was close to veteran.) Going by the way they have performed in other countries, eg in Australia with kangaroos, and the fact that deerhounds in the past (which were probably smaller than modern ones) were able to bring red deer stags down, I suspect that even a small deerhound could probably take down a wolf. So when I look at a wolfhound, I ask myself if it could stay with the wolf for long enough to get a chance at bringing it down. I'd guess that probably leads me to prefer a more lightly built IW than most, but then my preferred deerhound is more lightly built than many would agree with too! My pet hate is over-weight IWs, and my definition of 'over-weight' is probably too strict for many (including the hounds!). You sometimes see Judging reports, criticising IWs for being too tucked up, and my mind tends to rebel at that. OK, we don't want wasp waists, but as I see it, no tuck-up, no ""belly well drawn up" and no "greyhound-like breed"! BTW, although it uses the Canadian/US standard, I like this page by Shelley Camm, because it pulls together some of my favourite quotes from Betty Murphy, De Quoy, Mary MCBryde & Joel Samaha.

PS - I did like Star, but only saw her once, and would love to run my sticky paws over her sometime. If you do get a litter from her, I could be interested ..... :-)

Hi sharon and wee flea lol, Thanks for the site address I shall peruse it with great interest when I have time to linger, and by the way, remind me to tell you the Mary McBride story next time we chat.
Back to the standard......Our standard states " a rough coated greyhound" Now that to me describes a large lurcher, do you agree? I have seen many fine Wolfhounds, but never one quite as fine as that. I agree with you about the tuck up, to many now have hardly any, almost a straight underline, to me totally wrong in a galloping houd. If you take the standard literally, then your preference for a more slightly made Wolfhound, is probably more correct than my ideal, but then if you look at the famous picture "Reinagles hound" which Captain Graham spoke of as "It is what an Irish Wolfhound was and should be" then we are both far out!!!! Look at the tail and length of muzzle!! However. breeders will I suppose keep trying to breed to what they think is ideal, and judging by the various CC winners over the last couple of years, everyone has very different views lol, so there is hope for us yet. Kiss for Lewis, byeeeeee

I don't want an IW or deerhound to be as fine as a greyhound, but I do want them to have a similar (not exactly the same as) outline to a good coursing grey, with the build and bone increased in proportion to the increased height for the deerhound, and increased plus a bit more for the IW. That is very inexact of course. Neither deerhounds nor IWs stoop to their natural prey, neither are sprint specialists, and we expect both to have more stamina, and to be less 'breakable' than a grey. I could witter on about the differences, but you know what they are, the standards cover them well - and we are probably boring everyone else rigid :-). Still, I do want that greyhoundy outline.

I rather like the Reinagle hound :-). OK, so he's looking at his tail in horror, but he also looks as if he could do a day's work. I would have agreed about the head until recently, when a very experienced IW Judge praised a bitch for her 'beautiful old fashioned muzzle". I'd have called it a bit snipey, but she didn't have much beard or moustache, and now I'm looking at the standard again and thinking about it. Could heads be too boxy today? Or am I so used to the shape given by profuse furnishings that I don't think enough about what is under the hair? Excuse me for a moment - I'm off to shave some hounds' heads ..... :D

Agreed about the different views leaving room for hope. I used to think that there had to be the ultimate perfect IW/deerhound, and so there had to be a correct build. Now I reckon that, except at the extremes, there is a good argument to be made for both the racy type and the more heavily built one in both breeds, and so long as the pendulum of show ring fashion does not swing so far that either type is lost (and therefore unavailable if the other type does get too extreme), all is well.

Your last comment sums up how I feel about my breed. that breeders who place different emphasis actually are useful, as there is somewhere to go if you have a weakness in one point, where someone else has that fixewd as a priority. I too at first thought there could only be one ideal type. Most breed standards are loose enough to accomodate differing style of dogs, that are still within the standard as of good type.

There are some dogs in my breed that I have to accept (using the standard) that are correct, but just not quite what I like!

Ooooohhh Sharon, dont you dare get near those beautiful Deerhound whiskers lol :)
I know I shouldnt be, but I will willingly hold up my hands and admit to being a bit of a head fanatic when it comes to the IW.
I dont rate heads above all else, far from it, it has to be the dog as a whole, but a beautiful old fashioned head, finishes the dog totally for me. I like neither extreme, the long snipey nose is awful and the blocky square head is just as bad.When judging , I am guilty (?) of holding down and/or back those beautiful beards, and feeling what is really underneath. I think that is the only part of the IW to just look at ,that can be disguised, feeling beneath the whiskers gives you a much more genuine picture.
I think my perfect build of IW was Kasper,movement, especially recently, is Flint, and heads, well generally Mrs Jenkins Eaglescrag heads take some beating in my eyes.
Leigh, this looks to be an ongoing discussion, would you like us to move to another topic, ie Idle chat or something?

Find me an IW lover who isn't a head fanatic :-)! I agree of course that you've got to feel under the whiskers, but I wouldn't trust my hands to over-rule my eyes. The visual impression made by a lovely head (even if it owes a lot to careful grooming), is just too strong. I think that means the dog with a shortage of furnishings is very likely to be penalised, although it's bone structure may actually be better than the whiskery one beside it. Uella Flint would do me very nicely thanks, but I've just had a flick though the 1950-90 photographs and pedigrees, and there are so many super hounds there, including a few that are not much remembered now, that I wouldn't dare make a choice.

I was shocked at the labs at a show I was recently working at.......
9 month old pup, so obese it could barely trot, others with such short legs & so so fat......to the point of looking deformed,they would never stand a days rough shooting with me I am afraid.

Well, I suppose we're pretty lucky as well - working test one day, show the next (if the spirit moves us) and the ability to do our damndest in both. Mind you, I don't often do a show the day after shooting, mainly because I need to play catch-up myself!!

When we used to have Kerry Blues (a really barbered breed) they could still go out and work the sheep (Oh yes they did!!) or do a decent round on the agility course, so it's quite possible to get an all-rounder in many breeds.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi.
I think there are a few breeds which are distinctly "split" into different types. Labradors (don't attack me Mattie) are very different in the show ring to what they are in the field. When I assessed Labs for the police and prison service, it was always the lighter framed working type that had most attributes for doing the job they were bred for, I found heavier show types lacked stamina. I have however seen some successful show labs working well in the field. Another breed which seems to be splitting into two types are Huskies. The ones that race certainly seem very racy and their coats appear less thick than they once did.

My breed "Border Terriers" seem largely unchanged, however big dogs are often seen too thin, in an attempt to disguise their size and make spanning them more easy.
Dawn B.

its ok dawn I dont bite on fridays LOL, I agree in principal that SOME show labs are to heavy but not all,as with people though dont you find I am heavier than Ive been for years (middle age) but I can walk farther than my Sons who are 19 & 27 and never walk anywhere ! but its down to fitness we shouldnt associate size or weight with physical Fitness,although yes some are too fat. :(

I have a Lhasa Apso puppy. I knew virtually nothing about the breed until I got her. However from looking at various pictures etc. I get the impression that they are now being bred to have - how shall I put it - a more 'refined' look. Tilly, though does not fall into that camp. She looks more like the original Lhasas. It would be a shame if Lhasas suffered the same fate as the Yorkie and ended up as silky little fashion accessories!

Sharon

Unfortunatly they do not have to be silky to fall fowl of
fashon accessory status.
The lancashire Heeler is getting there and no way would I say it was
silky and cute. Wish people would understand the breeds before
wanting to breed them. May be thats the problem from the onset.

Clumber spaniels have definitely got lower and heavier over a long period of time. Pictures of the early ones show much taller and leaner dogs. They tend to be much "squatter" now, perhaps hence the problems with hips, elbows and spinal damage.

I agree with shadow, callum is a nice straight backed, solid gsd who can move and i wouldnt want it any other way, i showed him under a germanic judge who said to me that he needed to be angled more, if thats the case and she wanted him to look like the others, dont bother im not interested.

Hi there, I do not have any GSDs now, but had a couple of long coats many years ago. Before any of you leap on me (:)) I know they are not correct, but I liked them that way.
However, I also liked the correct normal coated GSDs, but I am horrified at shows today. Some of the poor dogs look deformed. Most have good/
fair heads, and dont look half bad until you get past the shoulders and then omg...bananas with four legs and not enough substance to fill a sandwich, some of them look almost emaciated. To any "pureists" who read this board, ( and I know of one) please do not take offence at my description, Im not saying I am right and you are wrong,I just prefer the
old/english/original type of shepherd, who looked like it could do a days work and had decent bone and substance

I have to say I agree with the comments here on GSD's: I don't pretend to be a great expert on them, but just know, like others here, what i like to see. I heard that the "wobbly" ones have been bred sacrificing stability for impulsion. Maybe, but the dog still looks wobbly (I'm meaning the really exaggerated ones here) and I have said before, deformed, to me :( (NO offence meant to anyone ....)

Belgian TErvs have got smaller over the years, and for example the ones from America had beautiful "soft" eyes - incredible. Some do still have them, but these days they are bred a bit more I feel for the head and the soft eyes etc are missed out, we now get smaller or even IMHO blackcurranty eyes - well lmaybe not as bad as that but that's how I feel! They also have shorter backs and are generally smaller but I guess i can live with that...

They did get really small and some were even whippet like 6 or 7 years ago...now they are back n track i feel.

Saw a photo of a Chow the other day, with lovely wide open eyes, absolutely gorgeous. But all the ones i have seen since have had eyes almost obscured by their heavy furred brows :(

Lindsay

Breeding Licences being discussed here

Oh lord, this is one of those topics that my husband hears me going off at least once a month. I'm not sure about UK, but many Americans are helping to wreck breed standards. How can I say this without being part of it.... OK, here goes. The US Consumer (how's that for PC) wants something special and breeders (puppy mills & everyone else) seems to be reacting the past 10 years with extremes.

If it's a small breed, well, time for it to be tiny--look at Yorkies -- I had a healthy & sturdy 7 pound bitch whelped in Harrogate in 1985 that I found here in Germany. She was at the top end of weight, but the lowest of the breed standard was 5 pounds then. She was great in the great outdoors. When I returned to the US, the breeders/consumers were pushing 1 1/2 - 3 pound "dollface babies" as the "new" standard of the breed. How useless and unhealthy was this? I know of several people who had these tiny dogs, they usually lived only 3 years. I don't know if things have improved since then. Later on, I'd end up in arguments with people telling me she was too large to be a Yorkie and that she was an Aussie Terrier (which also have shruk in size). I had her papers, I knew what she was. :-)

Large breeds, like huskies, are now being pushed into Giant size. There's an ad in Dog Fancy by the breed association arguing against this change. The privately owned Black Labs that I've seen, have increased in size from an average of 80 pounds, to 100 pounds. I think they used to be the same size as Chesapeake Bay Ret., but now they really show a difference other than color.. Rotties, sweet things they are, are the most popular dog in this American community in Germany. I see dogs around 120 pounds-140 pounds and having problems with bones & hips. No wonder.

Last month's featured breed in Dog Fancy was the Basset Hound. Looking at the picture almost made me cry. His lower eyelids really hung so that any dirt could fly into them. He was too heavy, long backed, and short legged to do what Bassets were bred to do in the first place.... hunt through the woods & dirt. One of the admonishiments were that despite his appearance, the Basset loved and needed outside activity. How could this distortion be able to run and play? I've seen European Basset hounds. Much happier and proportioned dogs--shorter backs, less body size, longer legs, & eyelids fit the eyes.

I read the discussion on the Irish Wolfhound with interest. How is the life span doing in the UK? Several years ago, I was asking around for an estimate of life expectancy and was getting 8-9 years by US breeders. A dog that takes 4 years to mature and is elderly in double that time... I felt so bad. Is it the same for you?

I do hope that this fad for extremes stays overseas and out of the UK. I'll get off of my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent.
toodles :-)

Can GSD show breeders on this board explain the reason for this exaggeration?
I find it incredible the things that are said about German Shepherds from British lines, and non Standard colours, by these breeders, they have the cheek to say these dogs are faults and should not be bred and carry genetic defects and so on and so on, and at the same time they are breeding these deformities for some purpose which I can't for the life of me understand, as its certainly not for a working purpose.

Hi there. Irish Wolfhound average life expectancy!! Not a good topic, but
I feel personally its about the same as you mentioned,8-9 years taken as an average. Some go quite a bit more, others a lot less, and the best I have ever managed was just over 11 years, but it was a bitch and she was of minimum required height. I wonder sometimes why I go on with these truly wonderful dogs, but I just couldnt be without them, but omg the heartache that comes with them sometimes too. I doubt if its any different with any of the giant heavy breeds. I believe that the lighter built but still very tall hounds do quite a bit better, ie deerhounds and borzois.

Hi Phillipa,
I have always loved and admired the tall sighthounds--IW, Borzois, SD, [$ others. They and the small terriers breeds have been my favorites of dogdom since I was a small child. Yeah, I know, talk about extremes. But I like them the way they are...not trying to encourage any change other than for health and welfare. I never wanted Lassie, just a Borzoi ]-)

It's interesting that your longest lived, was the smallest of the breed. Of course, the other unknown for me, has the life and health expectancy of IW been any different than the 9-10 years average? Due to the size, this could be the maximum for this breed. Extremely tall people have shorter life expectancies too-- just because of the strain put on the heart and other organs. I just don't know. I'm not a genetisist or a doctor.
It's too bad that the good die young :-(