Hi everyone.

Looking around at the gundogs at Crufts yesterday, I was horrified to see how many had missing teeth. Surely this cannot be right, arn't brreders aware of this, or don't they care ? I was watching the Labradors and several of the class winners had many missing teeth along the sides of their mouthes. If this were a working breed or a Terrier for instance it would mean you wouldn't get a second look in. I don't think it's fair that many top gundogs have this, what I consider "serious" fault and win high honours, when other breeds who are as good a representative of their breed conformation/movement wise are dismissed. I know they say gundogs have soft mouthes, but surely it's not because they don't have teeth, is it??
Dawn B.

Are you sayng top Lab winners had teeth missing? I know if they have teeth missing and you have a litter which says the dog original had a full set to start with and reason for not having some teeth then thats ok....missing teeth are not a fault dogs have accidents like people especially if they work.They can have teeth missing and still have correct mouth.Plus a Lab is a working Breed Field trals etc....
I would be interested to Know which dogs had the missing teeth and how anyone could see from the side of the ring :)
On this subject also hope we dont start to get full mouth examination like abroad :(
I'm also interested in your comment on them winning Top Honours and hope your not referring to the Lab winners.( I'm not wishing to be knocked of cloud nine yet :) :) :) )
And the confrmation on labs I thought was pretty good yesterday.

Hi Dawn, thats several very sweeping statements that you have made there :-)

How many 'Gundogs' exactly did you see with missing teeth? Which breeds, apart from Labs are you refering too? How were you able to ascertain that "many top gundogs" had this "serious fault" from the side of the ring? :-)

Where do teeth come into the hard/south mouth equation???
A dog with no teeth can still be hard mouthed. A hard mouthed dog will not be cured by having its teeth removed .... Once a rat trap ~ Always a rat trap ;-)

Mattie/Leigh
Anyone can see if a dog has missing teeth down the sides of its mouth, especially if you are sitting right next to it and its drooling all over you!!(I didn't mind though)

At a local ringcraft class I have seen (and handled) dozens of dogs with missing teeth and having done Lab rescue for 7 years, and work in a kennels that can accommodate up to 80 dogs at one time, I think it is safe to say I have had my hands on enough dogs to believe what I am saying to be true. I don't want to upset anyone, it is just what I have noted over a period of time.

I know of people parting with dogs because they have missing teeth (after teething), and had a complete set of teeth at 7/8 weeks. I didn't say all were the same and did not mean it to sound that way. I also don't see a problem with examining dogs mouths properly, after all they should all have the same amount of teeth in their mouth regardless of their breed. If you go to a show, have a look, you may be surprised. Again no offence intended.

Dawn B

A friend of mine had a cracking lab bitch who had two front teeth knocked out in accident and she used to carry a letter around with her,anyway in the end gave up showing her and it was a real shame because the bitch was a superb example of the breed in a list of what I look for in a Dog when I'm Judging missing teeth wouldnt even be on it, bad mouth construction would, but as we say each to their own opinion,and no offence taken as I'm still floating :)
By the way you did very well to get a ringside seat wish I'd have given you my camera...what time did you get there?

Mattie.
Got there 10.30 ish but only got a seat because I dived in when somebody evacuated !!

I agree with you about damaged mouths, my Border Terrier has 2 broken teeth where he damaged it out working, I would never penalise that either.
Dawn B

I would never, ever, penalise a dog with missing teeth if the bite was absolutely correct. To do so and ignore the rest of the dog shows ignorance. Accidents happen very easily, especially in a working dog pushing through cover, over walls etc., or even munching a piece of coal (as happened to one of my best dogs).

Personally, I would be very cross if I saw an uninvited person looking ar my dog's teeth, especially when I wasn't there.

Just seen what I've typed - spot the deliberate mistake. No glasses on either.

Jp and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Dawn,
I believe you are absolutely right in your observation of missing molars amongst some dogs within in the gundog group. The show ring is the showcase of all that is best and worst about a breed, the Kennel Club standard tries to give a reasonable blueprint in all areas except for...teeth. The standard is concerned with the bite of the incisors not the mouth as a whole. It follows then that judges , working to the standard, are primarily concerned with the bite. All well and good , but if no attention is paid to other areas faults will not only be in the odd one or two but will appear with greater frequency. The way that GSD's are judged gets a great deal of stick from other breeds, some of which it richly deserves , but in the area of complete dentition the GSD judges score..because they look.
I personally don't think a dog should be driven down the line for missing molars..my reasoning?..because if it does not state a requirement in the standard it should not be counted as a fault, however I do think it is worth noting and making comment on as a general observation before a critique if the condition were found in a significant number of dogs presented. I believe we have that responsibility to the breed judged.
If there were a condition prevalent resulting in missing molars (dismissing accidently damage) then attention should be brought to it..possible changes within the structure of the jaw or possible malnutrition resulting in poor dentition should be of concern to all who want to breed not only true to the standard dogs but those who will enjoy happy, healthy lives.