Just a wee question here.  My mum has a blue roan cocker (gorgeous but mad!) she had him from a reputable breeder and you can tell he is a quality dog.

When she was walking him recently, someone mentioned about the fact that he had a docked tail.  Mum had never thought about it (never had a pedigree before) but it seems dock tails aren't allowed now?  Mum didn't ask for the tail to be docked, that's the way he was sold.  Now she's worried that it's not "legal".  She's not showing or breeding the dog, so I can't see it matters but I would be interested to know what the script is on tails.

CG

As long as a vet docked it, it's perfectly legal. Tell your mum not to worry.
:)

That means I part own and show illegal dogs!!!! ;)

Ah - but don't forget - yours COULD be "naturally bob tailed" :D :D

Margot

very true, but that doesn't count for all the breeds I show!

No, no, you brought all your puppies up to my bitch who did such a good job on Chloe 6 years ago that you wanted her to 'amputate' for you! (Yes, she did actually dock her own puppy - only Munsters are supposed to have full tails ) ;)

docked munsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The "love" of Purdey's life was a yellow lab, called Gorbash - after a damaged baby dragon somewhere (don't ask me where - I don't know) - Gorbash only had half a tail ..... his mum bit his off, too

Margot

Do you think I can try this with my Spanish, only joking HONEST!!  Luckily I have two natural bobtailed SWD's and I'm hoping to keep these lines running for as long as possible.  I'd hate to lose this in my breed.

In our breed (Aussies) there are those who are naturally bobbed, and I must admit this gives me some cause for concern:  I know that if one breeds from two naturally polled (hornless) goats, then there is a 1 in 3 chance of having a hermaphrodite - ie having characteristics of both sexes.     

Does anyone know if there is any evidence to show any parallels in breeding from two NATURALLY bobbed dogs???

Margot

I would never do it with my breed I must admit.  How many in a litter do you get naturally bobtailed if you do bobtailed to a long tailed?  We get about half and half!   It has happened once in our breed as a dog that I bred looked as though he had a full tail when born as did 2 others in his litter, although their tails were slightly rounded, he was put to two natural bobtails and everything was fine then put to a tailed and there were bobtails in that litter and as the dams litter were all full tailed and didn't have a bobtailed parent he must have been with a slightly shorter than normal tail, although it didn't look that way at birth.

edited to add.  We've actually put it into our Breed Club clause not to breed bobtail to bobtail.

That's a really interesting point - in our breed, as I understand (only having seen 2 naturally "tailed" aussies, tails can be long and feathery, carried low, long & deathery carried high, long & thin (thik labrador) or half, or 3/4 - or naturally bobtailed!   

Would like to see how breed standard changes when we can't dock.

Margot - what were the tails like in your litter ??

Daisy

Bearing in mind they were docked at 48 hrs old, they looked like little labrador tails!

I must add here, that we took them to the vets, we were back home in 45 mins, and they made more noise as I put Mum back in with them again than they did during or after the docking.  Went back 7 days later for stitches to be removed - more noise at that stage!

Margot

So they all had tails. Were they all the same length (if you can remember :) ) ?

Daisy

Yes- we had all the same length - I'm really not sure which path I'm going to take with our next litter (which won't be until after I retire) - I think it's going to depend on which stud I use as to whether I get any natural Bobtails (Thor is a natural b/t, and his litter sister has had 1 litter of 4, all bob-tailed, so it may well be that Loki, who is Thor's full sister, 2nd litter, carries that gene as well).

Don't know how they will go in the show ring though, with tails - in my opinion, tail carriage will alter the movement - if it's carried high (like a flag) the movement will differ from a low (tail tucked under) carriage.

Margot

The two Spanish that are shown over here with tails luckily their's are quite nice but the ones in Europe there seems to be no hard and fast rule.  We put in the breed standard how we would like them to look but not sure that's how they are going to be if docking stops!  I have to say that I prefer the short tails in my breed and that's why I've kept a natural bobtailed line.

Margot - is it obvious which dogs are natural bob-tails and which have been docked ? If docking is banned here would it be possible for more unscrupulous breeders just continue to dock ?? :)

Daisy

That's something I'm not sure about Daisy - I suppose that unless you were to actualy SHAVE all the hair off, you wouldn't know - there's no obvious scarring on ours - and they don't appear to be any different to Thr!

When I first got Tara, a friend who is a very experienced dog person sadi that Tara must be a natural bob-tail because there was no evidence of docking. I had never asked, as it wasn't too important - but now I think that she probably was docked :)

Daisy

In most of our Spanish but not all that are natural short bobtails they have a blob of jelly (don't know how to describe it but that how it feels :d) at the end of the tail.  I'm sure that Lana's who has a longish bobtail doesn't have this, I'll have to have a feel at my mums tonight :d

Margot,
I've asked Dr Cattanach (Geneticist and breeder of the Bobtail Boxers)  re your question.

He answers that no there is no evidence to show any parallels as it is nothings to do with the goat condition.
He does not believe that the bobtail of Aussies is the same gene as that in Corgis/Boxers.
There are lots of short tail genes with different inheritances and different effects in the double dose.

He also responds to other questions raised here :-

Litter expectations are 50/50% in the Corgi/Boxers for bobtails.

With Boxers there is no indication that the bobtail could ever be confused with a normal tail.
The longest tails have been about one-third normal.
The short Boxer bobtails tend to have a fatty lump at the end of the bone and a filament pointed tip at the end.
The longer bobtails have the filament but not the lump. Some may have mimor bony distortions/minor kinking.

Hope this helps :)
Kirstine

Thank you very much for that - it's appreciated!

Margot