Ellie has been quite happy at training class but tonight something  happened and I dont know what.  All was well until recall.  Ellie wont stay yet, so trainer gently holds Ellie till I call, when trainer let go, Ellie headed straight for the nearest exit, (all doors are closed) and huddled.  I went over to her and she huddled right in the corner in a massive puddle, poor soul had wet herself. Completely emptied her bladder.  I slipped her lead on and gave loads of cuddles but had to bodily move her away from door etc.  Trainer brought mop over and I handed lead and Ellie over to trainer and she panicked for a few seconds and then walked happily away with trainer.  A few of the later class were just coming in and bent down to pet Ellie, she hid behind me, wetting herself again,  I have NO idea what happened, but Ellie normally bounces up to people for cuddles etc.

Puppies do sometimes get spooked if an instructor holds them. It's something I'm very aware of because I tend to take peoples dogs to demonstrate to them what I want them to do. I'm always careful about taking a nervy dog. Got a young Dobe bitch which at the moment I would not dream of taking. She's just got to the stage of coming to me to take a titbit so I'm just building with that one. A little Border terrier is quite happy for me to hold her but then comes to me when her owner calls her!

Really, don't take any notice of her. I know you want too and so would I, but the big bold, "Good havens girl, don't be silly" is the way to go or she could get the idea that there really is something to worry about. She will possibly take a couple of weeks to get her confidence back but with bold handling it will come back.

Best wishes, John

Thanks John, I  know that I have to ignore it, unfortunately I didnt, I mollicoddled her a little. It was quite upsetting to see her like that. Also a shock as it was totally out of character, as trainer normally holds her for the recall without any problem. 
I take Summer to a different class on a Thursday, I think maybe I will take Ellie instead, same training but different dogs, people and surroundings.

I agree with John, but also it may be possible that something upset her beforehand (another dog?) and so she felt nervous away from you. Sometimes a dog doing recall will be eyeballed by another dog it has to go past in the recall and the anticipation of doing that can be frightening for a sensitive girlie. It sounds as if she's normally happy with it, and with the instructor, so hopefully it will sort itself out. Good luck, let us know how it goes on Thursday.

Lindsay
X

i agree with all that has been said,also it may be possible that she REALLY needed a wee & made her self really worried

I am still having problems with Ellie at classes.  She is full of herself with visitors to the house, when she is out walking on or off lead. Generally I have no problems with her.  At classes she is a different dog, hiding behind my legs when a dog walks past in the socialising circle etc.  So tonight I decided to take Summer with her and put her on a brace link. She was much better.  In the sit stay & recall she HAD to run with Summer, in the second recall she lead the way, so progress is being made. What I need to know is... do you think this is a good idea or am I lulling her into a false sense of security?  She will need to be on her own at some point and I know that she has the ability to do it, just lacks the confidence.  She was fine with the trainer tonight, I asked her to do a hands on show check and although she was a bit wary, she stood with her tail wagging. So.. do I keep them braced for a couple of weeks or should I carry on as previous and take them seperately?

I would be careful - when i re read your first post, it seems she was genuinely frightened of something and was very upset. If she is usually confident, as she seems to be, it may be something at the class that is really upsetting her. Is there lots of shouting for instance? Or stressed owners or dogs, or lots of barking? Are the instructors kind?Anything like that can make a dog afraid of going to class.

I'm not saying your idea wont work - but at the end of the day it could be counter productive if she is actually afraid in the classes. If it were me, I would tend to actually take my dog out and maybe consider a different class with completely different dogs and people in it. Some dogs just don't do well in class, they find it very overwhelming and it may be that your Ellie is one of those. It's very hard to say because of course i can't see what is going on, but those are my thoughts. Also don't forget that a wagging tail can mean a worried dog or one that is unsure :)

Sorry probably not much help.

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay.  Yes you are right, in my first post I am sure that something really frightened her, but I cannot think what. I also took her to what should have been Summers training class on the Thursday, different town, people, dogs, hall etc and she was exactly the same. 

The class that Ellie has been going to is excellent, The instructor is very good with all newcomers, bolshy, timid, you name it, she has a gentle strength.  I have watched her calm, encourage and wait with patience to gain trust from the dogs.  I have been using her classes for over a year now.  In Ellies class it is very calm, no barking dogs and last night there were only 6 of us, so a really pleasant sized class. 

Last week, there were around 20, but the instructors daughter (also qualified) took and seperated us so there were, around 10 of us left.

Its not the hall we are in.  Ellie goes bounding into the hall, we are usually 1st there, and she has no worries while in there. when the other dogs start to come in she wants to go over to 'talk' to them, and when I allow it there is the usual sniff of the ears etc, and she is quite happy.

Last week was the same until we all went up to one end of the room to do the recall.  Trainer came over as normal, Ellie reached over to welcome her, but as soon as I handed over the lead Ellie totally flipped, nearly strangling herself, but not to follow me, she was not even trying to come in my direction, she was literally panicking, I called her to come rather than return to her, hoping I could catch her attention and pull her out of this, but she bolted straight for the nearest exit, never one that we use, and cowered in the corner, by the time I got to her she had totally empried her bladder.

Last night I decided to take Summer with us, and to a certain extent it did help, Ellie went into the hall as usual, and everything was ok, not perfect, but when we did the very first socialisation walk Ellie tried to hide behind my legs. It is hard not to bend down and pet her and tell her its ok, but I have to let her work this out herself, If I mollycoddle her, it would be disastrous.

She is, in every other situation a very confident dog, hence my reason for taking Summer. She did seem to pick up some vibes from Summer last night and on the second recall, she was quite happy to take the lead.

I hope I am doing the right thing, but if I see any slight changes in her I will try my best to define the problem.

All your thoughts and ideas will be most welcome, I must be missing something

Come to think of it, It happened the week that Ollie, her litter brother went to his new home. I wonder????        His new owner brought him to the class that week, but we didnt speak to Ollie, to give him time to settle.  We spoke to him the following week though

Any thoughts??   sorry for such a long post :D

It seems from what you have said that it is the actual handing over of the lead to the instructor that scared her so much, but if the instructor is really nice with dogs, why would this bother her? and in a way this is what you need to try to discover. I would suggest really trying to read her body language and see what she is telling you, it might help solve the mystery. For instance, she bounds in which sounds good :)
It may be an idea to ask the instructor if there would be an opportunity to do the recall in a different situation; perhaps after the other dogs have gone. Something seems to have spooked her. If say you can wait until the other dogs have gone, and you do a recall just with the instructor, and Ellie is fine, it would point to the presence of the other dogs being a problem; she may find it very difficult to go past them in a social sense. If she is still the same, then it could be either a "training hall", or something in the hall (such as a scarey item of furniture), something that happened in the hall (could be anything) or the instructor. I am sure there are a few other things, but that is what i w0ould think of to start.

I would imagine the presence of Summer would really help her feel braver :)

Hth a bit
Lindsay
X

Did Ellie see Ollie being handed over to his new owners?  Was he taken away on a lead?  Were you present at the hand over aswell?  Any of these things may have had an impact on your dog's behaviour and she is making an association between being handed to someone else on a lead and being taken away from home.  It is easy from being in that position to have the association move up the chain to her being on a lead and people APPROACHING (just incase they take her lead and her away from you).  If you were also present at the handover of Ollie she won't run to you when she gets spooked because you were there at the last traumatic occasion and in her eyes failed to stop what happened so she will run to an area she sees as safe.

It is very hard to say what is going on here because none of us have witnessed things first hand but if it were my dog I would take time out from having people approach her or her approach people.  This is hard because you will still need to socialise her so I would take her places that people are but just make sure no-one approaches her directly.  Tell your trainer that you need to opt out of exercises that mean you need to leave your dog for the time being. Let her get her confidence back that people can be near but that the same thing is not going to happen to her as happened to Ollie.  Is there another member of the family who could take her training?  If they were not at the Ollie handover she may not make the same association of being taken away from them. 

Only your dog knows what spooked her and she can't say.  BUT, even if it is not an association made at Ollie's leaving, letting her have some distance from people for a while won't do any harm and still should do some good.  Currently, your dog is in a state of conflict, wanting to say hello because that is her basic temperament but too scared of the consequences.  Remove the anxiety  and she will see over time that people can be near her but no harm befall her.

HI,
I HAVE A 20 MONTH OLD BEARDIE SHE HAD A SIMILAR PROBLEM AT TRAINING WE DO OBEDIENCE AND AGILITY THEN ONE DAY SHE BECAME TERRIFIED TO LEAVE MY SIDE AND IF SHE WAS OFF LEAD SHE WOULD BOLT FOR THE GATE.I WAS CONFUSED BY HER BEHAVIOUR TO I SPENT A LESSON JUST WATCHING HER TO SEE WHAT WAS DISTRACTING HER I REALISED SHE WAS TERRIFIED OF ONE PARTICULAR DOG .SHE WOULD NOT USE THE AGILITY IN FACT SHE JUST WANTED TO GO! THIS OCCURED ON A COUPLE OF LESSONS SO RATHER THAN MAKE A FUSS I JUST CHANGED THE DAYS THAT I WENT FOR A FEW LESSONS . ELLIE WOULD SCAN THE ROOM  TO SEE IF THIS DOG WAS THERE AND THEN WHEN SHE FELT SAFE SHE ENJOYED HERSELF WHEN I REALISED SHE WASNT LOOKING FOR THIS THREAT IE; THE DOG THEN  I REVERTED BACK TO MY NORMAL DAYS WITH THE SAME DOG ATTENDING SHE FORGOT ALL ABOUT IT AND CARRIED ON ENJOYING  HER LESSONS.
ALSO MY INSTRUCTOR IS WONDERFUL WITH DOGS BUT ELLIE WILL NOT GO NEAR HER MAYBE IT HAS GOT SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR INSTRUCTOR!

Just read this, maybe its the name :D We both have Ellie's.  I have thought about this, although at nearly 6 months old she is the largest dog in the class apart from another Lab, who is her litter brother. There has been on occasion, a large very unruly Chocolate brute who shall remain nameless, :D but she knows him very well and is very friendly with him, in and out of class. She is coming up for 6 months and although most of my other bitches have not come into season until around a year old, I am wondering if she may be coming in early but showing no visible signs yet apart from PMS.  I have been trying to rule out as much as I can.  It also happened around the time 3 of my bitches were in season. She has just become a very very clingy dog. Total out of character for her and as a Lab.

Edited to add. She has always been great with the instructor, she has known her since she was 12weeks old.

We have hit another problem tonight, big time.  Ellie is now frightened of everyone.  At class tonight (I left Summer at home) we were 1st there as usual so had the hall to ourselves for 10mins or so.  The caretaker came in for a chat and went to pet Ellie, she reached out to him and had a sudden thought she should not be doing this, and hid behind me.  I moved - she moved, I moved again - she moved again. and so on and so on ad infinitim......  The rest of the class arrived, same thing, bounds up to greet and then suddenly retracts behind me.  Every single time..  Recall was final straw.  Ellie flew towards me and then suddenly veered towards a dog and owner sitting on floor, and I though she was going for the dog, but she went straight behind the owner and hid. Literally squeezing herself between person and wall.  She could have come straight to me but her peripheral vision told her there was a safety zone closer and made a beeline for it. She was not cowering or shaking but sat behind this person peering over her shoulder until I retrieved her.  At least she didnt piddle herself as per usual. The instructor took Ellie on the lead and walked her round the hall to visit everybody and Ellie was quite happy to do this, but after the initial neck reach to people she hid behind the instructor.  Ollie, her litter brother was there so I involved his owner, who Ellie knows very well now, and again the same thing, reach out to say hello and a quick dart behind me. I move, she moves.  And there are at the begining again.

At home, she is quite a bolshy little thug, and pushes her luck to the limit.

If I've read this aright, she goes to greet initially, but then thinks better of it and tries to hide?
Can you confirm if she is like this with dogs as well as people?

Out of interest, what is her body language at the exact moment of decision to retract?

It could be so many things - for instance if you took her away from the classes for several months and then took her back you may even find she has no problem. Or it could be a medical problem - eyesight, or even a fear of being in more open spaces, or some other clinical reason.

One thing i have learned is to listen to the dog, and if she is hiding behind you and you move and expose her, and then she hides again and it goes on, she needs more help and probably not giving her sanctuary may not be helping with this. I realise we all agree it's important to not mollycoddle, but there does IMO come a point where the dog needs to trust the owner. Ellie is giving you some clear signals she is very unhappy and i would be responding to that now. She seems to have got worse anyway since you last posted.
I would recommend getting in touch with a behaviourist now i am afraid, because I think someone needs to see her in the flesh, and to advise you accordingly :)
As she is getting worse, there's no point practising this, and i would carry on training but at home, and give the class a miss or just sit in but keep people from approaching her. I think suzique also had some very good points in her post, dogs do work through what is happening and can pre empt situations that may upset them.

If you want to PM me with whereabouts you are, i may be able to recommend someone nearby. I'm really sorry this is happening, because it must be pretty worrrying.

Lindsay
X

She puts me a little in the mind of my old Katy. Katy went to dog club just about as early as it was possible. She was always a happy outgoing dog. We had a curtained off stage down one end with a door into the stage area on both sides. One evening when she was around 8 months old she started to shy away from one of the doors. No reason, nothing had ever happened there! The doors were never used! Walking heelwork around the hall, on approaching the door she would swap sides to put me between her and the door, swapping back after we had walked by.

This went on for a month or six weeks then one day she walked past with no bother!!! A couple of weeks later she developed another phobia about some stacking chairs in a corner. Again, no reason. They had never fallen or even been moved! A month later she forgot all about them and we never had any more problems. I never ever really worked out what the reasons were. The way I played it was to have her off lead at all available time and to go and just stand leaning against the door, or later the chairs. I never made any fuss about them or tried to get her near them. Just treated them as if they were not there. When all this finished Katy returned to her old usual self and was happy anywhere!

Best wishes, John

As you have had bitches in season at home it could be that she will come in sooner than she would have because of this.  Soem bitches can act very strange and spooked before their first season.

I would leave trainign classes a few weeks and keep her in situations where she is behaving her normal confident self, and try again when she has had time to ofrget this.  At the same tiem lost more general socialisation where she doesn't actually need to be interacted with. 

I suspect after a while of no-one making a fuss of her (ask people to ignore her for the time being, no attempoting to fuss her at all) she will be wanting attention :D

Hi Lindsay.   <<<<<If I've read this aright, she goes to greet initially, but then thinks better of it and tries to hide?   Can you confirm if she is like this with dogs as well as people? >>>>

Yes she is the same with both people and dogs

<<<<<Out of interest, what is her body language at the exact moment of decision to retract?>>>>>

She is in front or beside me reaching out, her neck is elongated but her body is in a retractable position, as if she has already decided on a plan of retreat.

>>>>>Or it could be a medical problem - eyesight, or even a fear of being in more open spaces, or some other clinical reason. >>>>

Hi Suzique.  No Ellie was not present when Ollie went to his new owners, she was outside playing with the other dogs all the time they were here, she did come in for a short time, but did not witness Ollies leaving. But they were 18 weeks old when seperated not the usual 8 weeks. They were close, but I also have Summer who is just a few weeks older and they all slept and played together.  Ellie and Summer still share a bed.

Possible medical problems have been checked.  Before reading all your posts this morning I took Ellie (alone) to a park where she has never visited.  Two owners and dogs were there, Ellie was off lead,  She bounded up to one and recall was perfect before she got to dog.  Second instance, we had to walk past dog and owner, Ellie walking to heel offlead,  other dog, a min schnauzer on extendable lead, fully extended, Ellie went over, and both dogs greeted each other, happily and calmly, I did not do a recall, I walked over to owner greeted him good morning, and Ellie came to heel, but as I started to walk on Ellie then decided to dart behind me as owner walked past, to get to heel again she circled me placing me between dog and owner. Unfortunately there is no other member of family who could take Ellie, I am on my own with them (kids decided it was them or the dogs, I chose the dogs) :D joke, I think. When she sees me with her lead she gets excited and just loves going out, but sticks very very close. I have actually kicked her a couple of times because she walks on top of my feet,

Brainless, Emma, Penny and Tia have been out of their season for a couple of weeks now, no sign of Ellie coming in, so have laid that theory to rest.  <<<<<.  At the same tiem lost more general socialisation where she doesn't actually need to be interacted with. >>>>>>  Well, we had a walk up the high street, small town, very quite, a few people, and Ellie quite happily strolled up and down, crossed the road, passed cars, lorries etc, didnt flinched when a little terrier did the snarling snapping thingy dangling from the end of his lead, she gave him a filthy look and walked on (this is the Ellie I know) went into a shop, baby in buggy, took no notice, into post office in long queue, felt her tension, and she kept close. One thing I have noticed (only realised this morning) when she is avoiding all and sundry, where-ever she hiding, infront, beside or behind me, she is facing me, with rear end out,  I find this quite strange. Most animals/people, even if hiding want or need to keep and eye on their adverseries on whatever it is they are afraid of. Ellie seems to be turning her back.  food for thought.

Anyway, I have decided to keep her away from classes for a while, I will however take her to as many public places as possible, which is quite difficult, as even public park here is quite deserted.  I dont think this is a classroom problem, I really do think that a behaviourist might be the next step.

Lindsay, thanks for offer of help, will PM you. 

Kay