I have recently started to look into the barf diet for my 3 year old whippet and have read various posts on here about the subject and how good it is. My friend has a ten week old border terrier pup and was also researching but came across some sites that say it's very bad to feed this way as our dogs are too domesticated and it can cause their stomachs to be ripped open by bones and that it isn't balanced enough. We are very confused now so any input would be greatfully recieved. this  is one of the sites www.secondchanceranch.com,
Thanks

Oh No Not that site AGAIN!!!! Secondhandranch is well known with both raw and homemade feeders as a full on propaganda site   They have something to sell do they not? :rolleyes:

Youv'e got to take *commercial* sites like this one with a grain of salt,try and find an unbiased site that give the pro's and con's that are NOT trying to push one way or the other,or trying to sell something,which i know are very hard to find.

I will give them some credit in that they have manged to scare the bejesus out of alot of would be raw feeders,you need to find out their motives????

Yes it is true that we have domesticated our dogs.....on the outside,we will never be able to change their digestive systems,their carnivorous teeth or the strong stomach acid that is specifically designed to digest raw meat :D Dogs can handle an off hunk of meat that would kill a human with no probs.

That site tries to make raw sound like rocket science and that we pet owners are just too stupid to design a diet for our dogs,i find that implication rather insulting! The pet food industry is guilty of this mind set also,they have to hire scientists and this and that,how on earth could a lowly pet owner figure it out?????

I feed a mixture of raw/homecooked and dry food.I am not a barf extremist by any means.

Do your own personal research and talk to other pet owners who feed this type of diet,i prefer to go by ones personal experience!

I started feeding raw meaty bones and the like to my first dog and all my dogs since,some 20 odd years ago,i have never had the problem s.h.r suggests,nor have i had any other problems!! The only choking incidence i have had has been with rawhide,the first and last time i ever fed those things.

I suggest buying some books.These are the ones i have read : The ultimate diet by Kymythy shultze
                                                                                        Grow your dog with bones
                                                                                         Natural health for dogs and cats by Richard Pitcairn.

The list is endless :)

Hopefully other's will come along soon who can put things accross a little more eloquently than me ;)

What are they selling Rose?  What would you say are their motives?
I have to say I find a lot of the Barf sites full on propaganda too and many of them have a book to sell or charge you to join the site.  I agree you have to make up your own mind and for me hired scientists are the way to go rather than speculation or conjecture or basing it on what wolves might eat :)  Personally I believe domestic dogs digestion has changed particularly with breed development as seen in the tendency of some breeds to have different dietary requirements or even intolerances.

we feed a mixture of raw and cooked :) and the dogs have never been better
we initially changed from dried complete to this diet due to a food sensitivity :)

Isabel can you pleeeeeese stop following me around the feeding board trying to debunk every single thing i say!!

You obviously know nothing about raw feeding,so why are you even commenting on this thread???? Do you have any knowledge to share on this particular subject????? Besides trying to pick apart every word i say!!!

I tell ya,you are a dog food advertisers dream It honestly sounds like you have been brainwashed to the point of no return :(

The O.P asked about raw feeding. So lets hear your advice Isabel :)

Where is your proof/references that domestic dogs digestion has changed?

I am as entitle to my opinion as you are Rose.
One thing on the web site quoted here that really rang bells with me was this:- "They will not tolerate ANY opinion other than their own and are extremely hostile toward anything that challenges their belief system.  Barfers have retaliated to my website/article by attempting to discredit me with accusations of being affiliated to a commercial dog company.  So for the record, I do not sell dog commercial dog food.  I am not selling anything." 
Why don't raw feeders just get on with it rather that needing to justify it by denegrating other demonstrably good methods of feeding?

<<<<<<<<Why don't raw feeders just get on with it rather that needing to justify it by denegrating other demonstrably good methods of feeding? >>>>>>>>>

And why don't others let them!
Its personal choice...if you're not interested...leave alone.If some one asks then those of us who chose to feed raw do our best to assist
Archer

I'm not stopping you :) If you read my quote again you will see I am referring to the need to denegrate other forms of feeding.
The OP wasn't asking for help in feeding raw but referred to their confusion over the differing opinions on the subject in particular the web site referred to, if Rose is entitled to give her opinion on that so am I :) 

Isabel, personally I don`t believe dogs digestion system has changed over the yrs, not found any scientific evidence yet, to make me believe that ;) :)
Also refresh my memory but, how do we know food going for pet food is fit for human consumption? In the UK of course, but remember its European directives that apply now so it should apply to the whole of the European community??

Christine, Spain.

well i'll go with isabel and say dogs digestive systems have changed even if there is no scientific ev idence they are more prone to allergies? also the barf diet can bring alot of aliments out e.g wet eczema!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have never heard raw feeding encouraging wet excema.   Raw feeding is exceptionally popular with Westie people.   Yet to hear one say that the raw has had negative effects generally the opposite. .

The dog either has aliments  or it doesn't , the diet helps control allergies generally. Excema in dogs is generally heriditary and can be controlled with diet, proper care etc

Hi Whispersmum,

I have been feeding BARF now for nearly 2 yrs and like you I was a little hesitant before I started. You should read some books and do a little more research to put your mind at rest before you make the decision as obviously, it is a personal choice and you have to be happy doing it. :)

I had my own reasons for switching to BARF and I must say, in my case, apart from the odd hiccup, it has done my dogs the power of good and there really is no going back for me. My dogs were fed on raw tripe before complete BARF anyway, so it wasn't such a big deal. If you feed the right RMBs, your dog wont have its stomach ripped open, well none of mine ever have. I get 90% of my dogs food from our local butcher who has the added advantage of being totally organic, which in my mind, makes me feel better ;) Remember you are aiming for balance in diet over a period of time, not just in one day or week.

HTH :)

If your really worried about bones splintering or puncturing(which by the way is highly unlikely) you can buy a grinder and mince them,bone and all,or you can buy pre-packaged meals which has everything worked out and done for you :) Maybe start off with the pre-packed stuff while your learning and then when you feel ready you can start throwing a few of your own meals in.In the mean time it might be a good idea to start adding a variety of fresh foods to the kibble,as well as meat and bones,you can also add yogurt,cottage cheese,vegie glop etc.

Good luck and dont be afraid to ask for help :)

Some suppliers sell chicken or labm mince that contains bone
Archer

I choose never to feed raw meat to my pets a long time ago and have stuck to this rigidly. I always feed Commercial Dry foods, but occassionally they may get some cooked meat if any is going spare. I have always been concerned about the level of additives etc that may be in meat, and always cook meat for my own use before eating it.

I don't think it is possible to simulate a diet close to that of an animal in the wild unless you can get some wild prey that has not come into contact with wormers, antibiotics, fed on fertilised grasses and grains etc.

Stan Rawlinson wrote an article recently that appeared in Dogs Today that you may choose to read. This can be found on http://www.doglistener.co.uk/important/important.shtml. if you want to read the whole article:

I have no connection with  him - it just summarised some of my fears.

Written by:
Stan Rawlinson
(Doglistener)
Dog Behaviourist & Obedience Trainer.
Visit his website at
www.doglistener.co.uk
enquiries@doglistener.co.uk

"However this recommendation to feed raw meat, including chicken wings, beef, lamb pork and tripe is positively life threatening, the additives, antibiotics, preservatives, and toxicity in raw meats are nothing like you would ever find in the wild. We all know about Salmonella in chicken but who has heard of Neosporosis Caninum? Or Anthelmintics?

With regard to raw Tripe. Cattle are now routinely wormed with fairly potent concentration of Anthelmintics, usually Fenbendazol. This is administered via a Bolus which sits in the stomach and breaks down over selected periods of time into regulated doses.

I wonder what concentrations of the Anthelmintics in "tripe" is if the animal is slaughtered shortly after a release of the dose from the bolus? I certainly feel that the concentration may be far too much for small dogs and young puppies to cope with.

Raw Chicken is another area of concern. The amount of antibiotics pumped into them could surely have a culminative affect when fed to dogs over a period of time. Possibly creating a situation whereby our pets become immune to the antibiotics from our vets, resulting in enormous problems in post operative or even preoperative treatments."

Dogs Trust recommend cooking all meat fed to dogs to avoid Neosporosis Caninum.

Actually this article generated a fair bit of discussion on the Our Dogs message board and Stan Rawlinson acknowledged the fact that he is not a qualified nutritionist and that what he wrote was taken from books and other sources, not his own research. This article was very anti-BARF and nowhere did it list any of the potential benefits from feeding this type of diet.

Robert do different meats go into pet foods than what raw feeders feed? I guarantee that the human grade meat raw feeders buy is of far more superior quality than the infested meat most pet foods contain.

What about the additives in the meat contained in pet food,ontop of the preservatives and additives ALREADY added?
Is the meat in your pet food wormer,antibiotic free and is th meat fed on fertilised grass and grain?

The commercial food i fed has chicken that is ANTIBIOTIC FREE,can you say the same about your food.

I'm afraid this stan rawlinson guy is a walking contradiction :rolleyes:

I would much rather know exactly where my meat comes from,alot of which is organically raised,than feed the *mystery meats* found in the lower end pet foods. Such as meat derivatives,animal by-products etc. ,which the consumer does not know what it is as their ingredients change from batch to batch,hence the reason why they need to include the  vague descriptions above.

Isabel i have met some barf extremists,but you have to come under the heading of commercial extremist.you are both as bad as one another :(
You choose only to see your way of feeding and anything or anyone else that is different is pushing their way.

There is no one right way of feeding and no ONE right food to feed! There needs to be a large variety in the canine and human diet for them to thrive properly!

To the original poster,i hope we havnt scared you off as you seem to have dissapeared,take from this banter what you will and ignore the pettiness of the rest.
Please post again :)

>I guarantee that the human grade meat raw feeders buy is of far more superior quality than the infested meat most pet foods contain.

All meat used in pet food in the UK has to be fit for human consumption, I think I have already mentioned that :)
I know you like research Rose, click on my name, then post, then point out to me the post where I have ever said people should feed complete rather than raw, I think you are getting your extremists mixed up :)

Well I have fed raw for over 20 years and would never entertain feeding a commercial complete food again. I tried years ago and was constantly at the vets with one problem or another. I have never had any problems with my dogs health and rarely visit the vets since feeding raw which speaks for itself.  At least with raw you can actually see what you are feeding!! Rather than open a bag up and dish out a bowl of nuggets covered with some tasty coating or other not knowing whats underneath!!

  Below are links to rebuttals to secondhandranch,now you can see both sides of the coin :)

http://www.bestfrisbeedogs.com/mybluedog2.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal4.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

This post written by a soon to be vet friend of mine on another board,she says it so much more eloquantly than i ever could :D!!

Quote
The issue of feeding raw meat as part (or the entirety) of a domestic dog's diet, has proven to be very dangerous}
by whom? any more dangerous than feeding kibble? 85% of small animals by the time they are 2 years old in this country, have periodontal disease. its the NUMBER ONE disease in our animals, and its the MOST PREVENTABLE.

Quote
What started out as an unresearched and unsubstantiated diet that qualified veterinarians dismissed as a "fad"...

really? It started (the most recent movement) in australia, thanks to two people - Dr. Ian Billinghurst and Dr. Tom Lonsdale (both DVMs). It's insulting to read that anyone who is a "qualified veterinarian" won't agree with this. I know many vets that feed or encourage raw, or at least accept it. Guess I won't be one of those "qualified vets" since I won't stop feeding raw once I graduate.

Quote
Additionally, dogs who are not on a raw meat diet are still at risk because of parasites and bacteria spread through feces at commonly shared parks.

first, if you are that concerned, dont let your dog sniff or play in other dogs poop. the same goes for humans - dont play in poop. that being said - KIBBLE fed dogs shed salmonella. you would be surprised at the crap found in dog crap - kibble or raw fed. what parasites does my dog have again? (would be nice here if the article woudl actually name some names here, instead of using scare tactics and generalizations)

Quote
Veterinarians across the United States and Britain have grave concerns about raw meat and bones in a dog's diet

oops again, those darn generalizations. what vets? all vets? certainly not the ones actually feeding raw.
personally, i know many vets who are concerned about the fact that american dogs are as a whole, overweight and have nasty gnarly teeth.

Quote
History and current statistics show us that both wild and domestic dogs who eat raw meat and bones can and do become very ill for a number of reasons
oh, so if i feed my dog kibble he will never be sick? is that a promise? so why did he get cancer, and a whole other large multitude of problems? kibble fed dogs (who are in a majority here ) get sick each and every day. inf act, raw feeders will tell you that they have healthier dogs that RARELy see a vet. so why the discrepency? where are the cold hard facts?
and hey - wild dogs dont have vets. yes of course they get sick.
who says its the diet?

Quote
Some dogs become ill right away and others have severe pancreatic, kidney, heart and brain illnesses due to a long-term raw meat diet. Most dogs that die from a raw meat / bones diet do not show signs of illness until a few days before it kills them. This is true with Pancreatitis and with the raw chicken or turkey necks and backs that injure the stomach and intestinal area.

so any illness my dog has now that he is raw fed is automatically attributed to his diet? what BRAIN illnesses are we talking about? again, give me diseases. pancreatitis comes from feeding too high fat, among many things. some dogs have sensitivities, some dogs can't handle certain meats. most dogs that eat turkey that get sick and get pancreatitis do so right around now - Christmas - and its from eating the drippings. if i ate a pan full of turkey fat, i would probably get sick too.
and don't show signs of illness? who took this survey, i wasnt involved. dogs in GENERAL don't show major signs for a lot of things. but the diseases they are talking about here are oFTEN ACUTE disease. meaning they dont HAPPEN over a long course of time!!!!! should your dog wear a sign that says "hey mum, im getting a perforation next week!"

Quote
Any initial results they might see with a raw meat diet are a result of an "absence" of one or more ingredients of the kibble - NOT the "presence" of raw meat
says who? and why do these results continue?
and absence of what? perhaps those non-species appropriate grains and all those lovely fillers and preservatives?

"There is no one right way of feeding and no ONE right food to feed! "

Absolutely agree with this, and my view is to use Commercial food OR cooked meat. I am careful to select decent commercial foods. As the original poster asked for some input, I think the cons of BARF also have to be given. The aspect I focused on is on the risks associated with raw meat.

Some of you BARFERS are very sensitive on this site. When people ask questions on specific commercial foods on this site, the general response is to try and ram the BARF bible down their throats. I won't try to persuade the poster of this thread to stick to commercial as that was not the intent.

i don't know if the chicken that I eat is antibitic free. In my ignorance I give it a bloody good cooking

I never buy pet foods that use animal derivatives. I always look for manufacturers with clear, honest food labels.

I also don't think people are being petty by stating an opinion. Get off your high barf horse - as you say, "There is no one right way of feeding and no ONE right food to feed!"

Maybe i should make clear Robert that i do not feed solely raw food.I also feed a little kibble and cooked food also.I am definately not a barfer!!

I don't think that anyone has the right to criticise another persons way of feeding, wheather it be commercial food or BARF, until they have fed their dogs both ways for a good period of time, looked at the difference in the dog ie, health, temperment etc. Only then, can you make an educated decision as to what benefits either food will offer. :)

When people come on here asking advice about diet, it is surely obvious that if a certain way of feeding or product works for us, then we are going to recommend it. Very few of us ram it down others throats as the best way to go. :)

I don't think that anyone has the right to criticise another persons way of feeding, wheather it be commercial food or BARF, until they have fed their dogs both ways for a good period of time, looked at the difference in the dog ie, health, temperment etc. Only then, can you make an educated decision as to what benefits either food will offer.

I couldnt agree with you more Hairypooch :) There have been dogs in the past that i have fed all commercial food to due to long term boarding/fostering and there has also been plenty of dogs i have fed an all raw diet too,i am currently feeding a bit of everything!

I have nothing against commercial food persay,but i do take exception to people feeding really bad foods,with unhealthy and questionable ingredients,and i will do my utmost to try and get that point accross,admittedly sometimes not very tactfully :p My main motives are the dogs and their health and welfare,and hope against hope that the owner REALLY doesnt know what type of ingredients are in their pet food,and if they do, then they can completely ignore me :D  Ignorance is bliss applies to this subject perfectly!

Isabel you seem to delight in pressing my buttons on a subject that you have no experience or idea about(except what youv'e skimmed off the internet),your motives are transparant which is why my attitude toward you is such as it is.

In a way i enjoy our debates,but it is hard to debate with someone that only has ideals about something and nil personal experience.

>no experience or idea about(except what youv'e skimmed off the internet),your motives are transparant which is why my attitude toward you is such as it is.

Yes I have an internet connection and a library ticket I don't have access to the veterinary press but I know a woman who has ;) what do you have over and above that?
I should hope my motives are transparent, I don't believe anyone should be made to feel guilty about feeding complete foods on the basis that they are nutritionally inadequate or that they contain preservatives that are within the regulated limits which are, in themselves, well below the safe limits indicated by scientific research, additives are what raw feeders call supplements aren't they :) People are not ignorant that they are there they just understand and accept their benefits particulary when they are aware that their dogs do extremely well on it :)
I'm sorry if my posts annoy you but if you don't want to be challanged in your critisism of other peoples feeding stick to offering information about what you do and why you think its good.  If you feel the need to critisise other peoples ways then expect a debate but please don't resort to personal insults :)
I expect you are still looking for the post where I have critisised other peoples feeding methods.
Christine, the about "fit for human consumption" was something I read following the BSE business perhaps an email to one of the manufacturers would confirm.   I would imagine that Europe would have an eye to the same problems that pet food can be a problem if it is a danger to humans.  To be honest, though, all I ask is that it is safe for my dog, I have never been squeemish about byproducts etc, so long as it is nutritious which with the majority of completes is clearly the case because modern dogs live long and healthy lives in the main.
My idea that modern dogs digestion may be different is purely based on the observation that different breeds often demonstrate tendancies to different requirements, who knows if I'm wrong or right :) but even if it is exactly the same as a wolf's I can't see why the requirements cannot be met with a complete food.

Hi Isabel, whats allowed re animal by products in UK comes under Brussels legislation, same as all member states do :)
http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/food/biosafety/bse/m04_107_en.pdf

It looks like since the foot n mouth outbreak all foodstuff for pet food must of human consumption quality, but it`s only a recent legislation & imports from outside the EU of animal by products are still allowed for now & as you know, bodies of euthanized/road kill etc with all kinds of drugs/chemicals in them, have been found to be used in the making of dog/cat foods in USA, which are exported to Europe along with animal by products.
But, it says under the:- Intra species recycling (cannabalism) ban.
*...However, derogation is provided for in the case of fish & fur animals subject to strict controls by the competent authorities.*
Fur animals??? what does that mean?????

Christine, Spain.

Christine

I'm not aware of any foods being imported from the USA via Europe if there is I suspect I could not afford it once the transport costs had been added :)  I understood the America products were produced here under license but I could be wrong.
I imagine fur means as opposed to scale or feather.

Both animal by products & derivatives are imported to European countries, from Asia, USA & other places round the world. Isn`t that how the bse crisis happened, thru imported infected animal by products from Asia? (or something like that, correct me if I`m wrong)These are used to make complete animal foods, which means even tho they are made in stated country it does not mean the ingredients are from that said country. thats why the legislation covers imports from outside EU countries, UK does import it!
Dogs & cats are classed as fur animals.... aren`t they?????

Christine, Spain.

BSE was created by feeded sheep, some with Scrapie, to cows another cloven footed animal, feeding sheep even with Scrapie to other unrelated animals has not been a problem, not aware any were imported, plenty of our own sheep :)
I'm not sure what you mean about the fur animal thing.

Whatever its called Isabel, bse, scrapie, all caused by species eating there own species. Lets get this straight, cattle, as in cows, sheep, goats etc do not eat meat even less there own kind, they are ruminants/herbivores. Humans thought they could make them grow quicker/meatier/leaner/bigger by feeding them with animal proteins & made them unwilling cannablisms in the process.
Isabel I am not saying cattle is imported to UK, I am telling you animal by products are & from worlwide.
But, don`t you have lamb/beef etc imported from New Zealand, Argentina etc?

There was a total ban on cannabalism regarding farmed animals & this Brussels legislature has now extended that to include poultry & pigs but it doesn`t apply to fish or fur animals. My concerns are that dogs & cats are classed as furred animals(along with rabbits etc) so does it mean cannabalism is OK for them? And if it is will their own species end up in the commercial pet food chain?

You must be one of the few thats never read an advert or the *hype* for your particular brand of dog food you use, take my hat off to you as I seem to be bombarded by them everywhere I go or the tele comes on & can`t help but notice the damn things & their outlandish claims!!! :D

Christine, Spain.

ps have family in exeter had cows & dairy farm all his life, has never & will never entertain bone meal of any kind anywhere on his land :) Makes sure none of it comes in, in anyway shape or form :)

I agree with you Christine species should not be fed to themselves and BSE should never have happened, you would hope that internationally they have learned from that but if you are saying that that goes on with the meat imports from abroad then all meat eaters, human, raw fed dogs or complete fed dogs are all at risk.  That stuff about fur animals talks about "strict controls" so I'm still not convinced that they would allow pet animals to go into pet foods, even if it was permitted I have never understood why they would, there is a huge meat industry in the Western world that generates a huge amount of byproducts that would be extemely difficult to get rid of if it wasn't for pet food.
I chose my brand as a recommendation from another owner for delicate tummies many years ago I have never seen it advertised on the television or indeed anywhere but the dog press which I havn't taken for a while, not sure what you mean about outlandish claims about those that are on the telly the ones I have seen seem to centre around cutesy dogs running round looking happy much as they advertise anything else really.

Robert, *Some of you BARFERS are very sensitive on this site. When people ask questions on specific commercial foods on this site, the general response is to try and ram the BARF bible down their throats.*
I`m only sensitive to insults like that & I don`t try ram any bible down anyones throat! I`m not a *barfer* either, never have been, I feed my dogs a very varied, raw meat/fish diet, with the addition of veg/fruit & our leftovers & porridge or broth!!
*i don't know if the chicken that I eat is antibitic free. In my ignorance I give it a bloody good cooking*
Cooking does NOT inactivate antibiotics/additives/colourings/wormers etc.
As you yourself say *In my ignorance*.

I`ll leave it at that.

Christine, Spain.

Modern thinking for humans is that LESS processed food is better and MORE fruit, veg, fish etc - raw or cooked simply is best. Why should it be the opposite for dogs :)

I am not a BARFER either - I just like to feed a good variety of good food to my dogs and to my family as well :D

Daisy

People have always been able to make choices about their food and have become accustomed to variety in the western world, sadly they don't always make sensible choices and manufacturers pander to that with appealing convenience foods that are high is fats and sugars and low in fibre not at all like pet foods which are formulated to meet all their needs.  The advise issued by the government about more veg, fruit, etc is to counter that.  Personally I feel it would probably would be a good thing if a complete food was produced with all the vitamins and fibre of a sensible diet but going on past form I doubt people would choose it :)

<not at all like pet foods which are formulated to meet all their needs.>

Whose needs, the commercial manufacturer who has access to lots of waste products from human food processing that can be readily utilised in complete foods, or the animals?

We fed commercial for many years, and we have fed raw for many years, so I feel qualified to join in this debate.

No food, whether commercial or raw, will meet all an animals needs. Don't believe the hype.

As with humans, a balanced diet is achieved over time by using plenty of variety in different food stuffs not by feeding the same thing every day, with every requirement fed in every meal.

Some people put their faith 100% in scientists and vets and do not question why. We tend to look at the facts and make up our own minds.

There have been too many tragedies over the years caused by scientists, everyone has heard of Thalidomide, so just because scientists and nutritionists say commercial food is safe it is not neccesarily so.

We feel safer feeding a diet similar to the one that dogs have lived and thrived on for hundreds of thousands of years. If commercial food is around in thousands of years time and has proven to be safe, then perhaps there will be a more compelling reason to use it, until then I remain sceptical that a bag of processed grain contains 100% of our dogs needs.

Snomaes

I have never read any "hype" snomaes, I have never even read an advertisement for the food I feed or joined a mailing list or message board dedicated to the users of complete ;)
I must say I do prefer scientific data, Thalidomide happened over 40 years ago so if that is the criteria that we are going to judge science by it doesn't seem to be doing too bad :) but I also base my preferences on the evidence of my dogs condition, if my terrier who I lost this year at the age of 15 was lacking anything in her diet I'm not sure at what age it was going to tell :)  The majority of dogs are now fed on complete so in scientific terms that will add up to hundreds of thousands of dogs years data wise and the population is remaining good and healthy on the whole.  It doesn't have to be blind faith it is possible to learn how to evaluate research data :)

<The majority of dogs are now fed on complete so in scientific terms that will add up to hundreds of thousands of dogs years data wise and the population is remaining good and healthy on the whole.>

I would disagree with this statement. Skin disorders, various types of cancer, allergies and orthopedic diseases to name just a few seem to be far more prevalent now than in earlier years. One only has to look at the messages posted on the health forum to realise how common these conditions are.

As you say, most dogs are fed on complete nowadays, is it just coincidence or is there a relationship between the two?

Snomaes

Clearly your perceptions are different to mine certainly out and about I see the general population of dogs looking fit and well on my walks, I'm sure I have read reports in the dog press that dogs longevity has increased and that is definately my perception.  These complete diets have now been fed for about 30 years through many generations of dog.  Of course we get a lot of posts from people with problems on the health board I bet if you sat in the Doctors surgery you would think the human population was in a poor way too :)  There may certainly be some dogs who will be sensitive to preservatives etc but we can't be sure that these problems are all down to diet though as there are many more chemicals in our homes such as cleaning stuff and soft furnishings, recent reports have highlighted this in human health terms.
I do agree though that orthopaedic problems of large breed puppies is something that needs more thought than at present but I doubt any feeding method gets it correct 100% of the time :)

Isabel what brand of food do you feed? I have asked you this a couple of times,but you have never answered???

What do you think of this one? From the house of parliament.

335  PROCESSED PET FOODS AND VETS  7:12:04
  David Taylor
  Bob Russell
  * 2
     That this House deeply regrets the professional endorsement of processed food for domestic dogs, cats and ferrets by some members of the veterinary profession; is concerned at the level of incidence of malodorous gum disease and associated diseases of the kidneys, liver and other organs amongst the domestic pet population; recognises that their health and welfare is best served by foods, such as raw meaty bones, that reflect the full range of nutritional need; applauds and recommends the work of veterinary surgeon Tom Lonsdale and others in this field; recognises also that vets in the UK are trusted and independent advisers on the health of our pets; is therefore concerned by the nature of the relationship between some vets and producers of foods that cause illnesses in pets; and calls upon the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to make a definitive statement on the active endorsement and promotion of processed pet foods by vets.

You haven't said how the house voted on the motion.
I feed Beta.

Hi Whispersmum :)  Only you can make the decision but I recommend that you research the methods that you are interested in - very thoroughly!  Yes it is a little scary whatever way you go, we all want to do what is best for our dogs.  Personally I feed totally raw, have done for almost a year (my hound is 18 months old) I feed a varied diet that my dog enjoys and looks fabulous on!  She has a gorgeous coat, lovely white teeth, clear skin, bright eyes (as many dog's on commercial food also posess ;).)  For me the concept of feeding a species appropriate diet is a simple and logical one and I would have to see some very hard evidence that feeding raw is jeopordising (sp?) my dog's health.  The way I feel about my dog's diet is that I will never feed commercial food again, but thats just me, I am giving you MY opinion which I took a long time to reach.  The website you speak of at one point had pictures of dog's in party hats sat round a cake - I had seen enough at that point :D!!  Do what you are comfortable doing W.Mum ;)
Sarah
PS if you ever want to know what i feed my dog - I would be happy to tell you ;)

You feed Beta?? I honestly gasped when i read that :(

Oh well each to their own :)
But after finding this out i no longer want to deal with you in feeding discussions,your choice of dog food shows me your depth in canine nutrition :(

>I don't think that anyone has the right to criticise another persons way of feeding, wheather it be commercial food or BARF, until they have fed their dogs both ways for a good period of time, looked at the difference in the dog ie, health, temperment etc. Only then, can you make an educated decision as to what benefits either food will offer.

>I couldnt agree with you more Hairypooch 

Glad to see you have fed Beta too Rose ;)

Well said Daisy and I would add to that with: I like to know that the meat we eat has had a good life and that all food has had a minimum of chemicals in its production and has not had to travel half way round the world to get to us, so is as fresh as possible. 

I thought I had read recently that any meats are tested for residues of antibiotics/medications before they are released for sale. I certainly hope so.

Tiggey they may be tested(not sure) before being sold for human consumption,but i seriously doubt they would bother for the pet food industry??

The pet food bits come off the same animal Rose

Yes after their rendered and soaked in chemicals!