I have a 3yr old bitch who is immune deficient, probably caused by 2 bouts of meningitis she had as a pup but I'm not ruling out her puppy vaccinations possibly playing a part as well. :-(

We had a titre test done a couple of years ago and found she had natural immunity to Parvo and Distemper but little or no immunity to Hepatitis and Lepto. Because the annual booster contains live vaccines we can't take the risk of giving it to her so she currently gets an annual lepto vaccine on it's own because it is killed and she gets homeopathic combination vaccines with kennel cough but that's it. When we first found out about her problem I contacted numerous drug companies trying to find killed vaccines, I realise they are not as effective as the live ones but better than nothing and safer. No luck unfortunately.

I'm wondering if anyone else has a similar problem to mine and how do you deal with it. Also do you have any suggestions. Is there anything I can give her that would help her immune system or in her case would it not work. I thought her natural immunity to Parvo and Distemper would be for life but someone suggested it's not. Now she's a bit older I am becoming increasingly concerned. We always keep synulox at home just incase she shows signs of becoming ill and we can administer the tablets immediately instead of waiting to see a vet.

Very grateful for any advice. :-)

Hi Clare, what do you feed? I f you don`t already feed natural, you could try that. For sure that would help her immune system. According to the info coming out now the lepto only lasts for about 6 mths anyway.You can still get untenuated vacc, but are you sure that you want to do that if you think the puppy vacc played a part in all this? Titres are not 100%. Not sure about natural immunity but once they have had the disease they are immune for life. Are you the Claire who posted to me last year when my pups got ill? If so, Hi, if not still Hi.!! TTFN P.S. The canine health concern site is very good for stuff like this. TTFN
Christine

....or as an old Chinese proverb says:-
Whatsosever was the father of disease, an ill diet was the mother.

Christine, I agree with everything you say.

Thanks for your reply's :-)

I feed Eukanuba Large Breed, don't fancy the natural way, I find it kind of scary, probably because I haven't researched it enough.

I'm not sure I know what an untenuated vacc is ? The reason I think her puppy vaccs might have played a part in it is because weims are known to have an aggressive immune system and a number of cases of them having very bad reactions to puppy vaccines have been reported :-( I will never know how/why she caught meningitis and for all I know it could have been a stroke of very bad luck and infact the M could have caused her immune deficiency.

Do you mean the titre test is not 100% accurate or do you mean the titre levels do not always stay as high as they once were ?

Christine I can't remember if I posted to you last year, I may well have done. Are you the lady living in Spain and unfortunately lost her puppy after one hell of a battle ?? Apologies if you are not but Hi and thanks for replying :-)

Hi Clare ,yes Im the same one,I lost "ready",& the others also went down with parvo.Tennuated just means live & un or nontennuated means dead.Whats an aggressive immune system? With the titre test it gives you the reading of the antibodies at that time. Antibodies can go up &down, also if an animal has a high level of antibodies to a particular virus it does not mean the animal will not get that virus. By the same principle, if it has low or no antibodies it also doesnt mean that animal will catch it,(hope ive explained that ok).As I understand it,a lot depends on the individuals immune system.I have been told that the lepto vac is the one that causes lots of problems due to the way its developed(the allergens I think) & also it only gives protection for 6mth.If a dog has very high antibodies to a particular disease & you know it has had that disease, then that immunity is for life. Hope ive explained it right.
There is nothing to be scared of with a natural diet,get yourself a good book & you will see how easy it is,& there is loads of stuff on the internet about it & it will definitely improve her immune system.Put the word "vaccinosis" in your search engine & see what you come up with.
Good luck, Christine.

....also, put 'pet food' into a search engine. You will be amazed how much you can find out about commercially produced products. Yuk!

Actually it's the dead vaccine, not killed. I think Nobivac do the dead vaccine and most vets should use it, my vet used to order it in bulk and then stored it in his fridge for us.

We used to use this for our Pomeranians as pups as we were losing so many a week or so after their vaccines and the vets could not find anything wrong with them. Once we started using the dead vaccine we never had any problems.

Hi dianep, whats the difference between dead & killed?
Christine

vaccines can be live attenuated(weakened) , inactivated or toxioid (immunising components) all these produce active immunity.
Ted

Hi Ted,so is that live attenuated (modified live vacc) inactivated (dead) &
I have never heard of toxoid! Please explain that last one. One question, if all three produce active immunity,does that give 100% guarantee against any/all virus they are used against?
Christine

Hmmm I'm not sure I understand the difference between a killed and dead vaccine either.

MLV (Modified Live Vaccines) apparently give the dog much better immunity than a killed vaccine. That's my understanding anyway and this was supposedly the reason why I couldn't get hold of any killed vaccines with the exception of Lepto and the reason for that is because there isn't a MLV one.

Killed vaccines are much safer because the dog is unlikely to suffer any symptoms/run the risk of catching the virus that it is being vaccinated against because the antibodies it is being injected with are dead, apparently this way of vaccinating is not as effective as using an MLV because the body is not exposed to minute amounts of the real thing. If you use an MLV one the antibodies although in very small amounts are live but have been modified so that the dog shouldn't actually catch the virus but may display some of the symptoms in a mild form whilst the immune system develops the antibodies it requires to fight off the virus should it catch it in the future. Does that make sense ? Is it correct cos that's what I've been led to believe ??

Because my dog is immune deficient if she were to be vaccinated with an MLV, because she is being exposed to the live virus she runs the risk of not being able to produce the antibodies to fight it off therefore we would be pretty much injecting her with the virus - nasty consequences :-( . Again this is what I've been led to believe but I am certainly open to suggestions that this could be wrong.

With regards to her titre test her levels of immunity to Parvo and Distemper were exceptionally high and the recommendation that came back from the lab suggested that there was no need for vaccination against these viruses.

I'd welcome any more thoughts, comments, ideas, experiences as this subject as you can imagine is very close to my heart.

Thanks for your replies :-)

Hi Clare I think it is safe to say there is a risk with ANY vaccine live or dead, there is no gaurantee that the vaccine will protect against the virus
or may actually cause the disease OR could cause reactions(from minor to death).Your dog is immune defficient so the risks are higher,I think you have good advice from the lab but if you want it explained really well go to Dr Dodds site
www.golden-retriever.com/dodds.html
Christine

Attenuated means not killed exactly but 'Killed off' so that it dies off after being injected but not before the body has developed antibodies against it. In a situation of impaired immunity this would not be recommended unless the risk is greater from the disease which could be high if no immune system to fight it .This is different to inactivated vaccine(dead) these contain inactivated organisms.
Toxoid vaccine is one that contains immunising components of the organisms, that is toxins that have been inactivated by treatment by formaldehyde such as tetanus. Inactivated vaccines may require a slow antibody response and 2 injections may be needed, further injections will lead to an accelerated response.
Ted

Thanks Ted you`ve explained it very well. Tell me, is toxoid also called anti serum? That is what is given as a temporary solution.
I can only add one more thing,whatever vaccine is used,mlv, dead,toxoid, the explainations on how they work is in theory,because in practice you dont know how the individual is going to responed.That all depends on how the immune system reacts to the challenge of the virus.If any one can get hold of the leaflet that comes with the vaccines(like the product information that is given with medication etc),you can read all the dos & donts instructions give by the manufacturers of vaccines.But the vets do not give them out.
Has any one seen one? Please tell me if you have, I cant get my hands on one but I would love to.One more thing I forgot to say,just to complicate things even more, each individual vaccine is unique also.
Regards Christine.

No,immunoglobulin produces passive immunity, the protection afforded is immediate but only lasts a few weeks. These are usualy given after an exposure such as rabies. Try e-mailing the manufacturer of vaccines for info. sheet or vet to photocopy it, I cant see why they would object to that..
Ted

Thanks once again Ted.I am in a dispute with my vet & Merial do not wish to speak with me.Vet says he hasnt got it,Merial say "ask the vet"!When my pups had a reaction to their first puppy vaccine(TETRADOG made by MERIAL) one went down with Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis & then Parvo, they offered me serum but I refused.I asked for info on it but they did not give me any.
Interesting that you say its usually given after exposure to rabies,I can assure you that definitely was not the case with my pups,I was worried about distemper etc.I was told anti serum was taken from a dog with high anti bodies against any/all virus, is that right? Does that mean immunoglobulin is anti serum?
Clare did you or you vet ever make SARRS report?
Christine

Trouble is Christine my experience re vaccines is in the human field so although the principals are the same I can not help when it comes to specific dog vaccines. Sorry.
Ted

Thats OK Ted.youve been really helpful,I very much appreciate your explanations
Christine.

Christine I don't know what SARRS report is so I guess my answer would be no ??!!??

I have read Dr Dodds site before however that was some time ago so I'll take another look to see if she has updated it at all.

Thanks. :-)

Hi Clare, its short for Suspected Adverse Reaction Reports & really if it was suspected to be vaccine linked with you dog, it should have been reported by the vet. Have you decided what to do about vaccinating her,
& are you giving her anything to try & boost her immune system? What about nosodes?
Christine

No report done, nothing can be proved. She could have just been unlucky, caught the meningitis which at the time I was told was rare but since then I have heard of cases and then the meningitis could have caused her immune deficiency. She was very very poorly so I wouldn't be surprised if the M did cause the deficiency but the reason I suspect the vaccines and always will is because of the number of bad reactions dogs are having these days.

Regarding nosodes she gets homeopathic combination vaccine which includes Kennel Cough. The Eukanuba food is supposed to help the immune system but whether or not it does I don't know however she's been on Euk since a puppy so that's not a special diet or anything. All these treats you see on the market that say helps boost immune system she gets them as they can't do any harm. She gets vaccinated once a year with the lepto vaccine and then basically that's it. Apart from keeping a very close eye on her 24/7, taking care where we walk i.e. not near stagnant water etc. I don't know of anything else to do.

My youngest dog is due for his first booster next month but before we decide anything we'll be getting a titre test done so it will be interesting to see what we find.

Claire.

Hi Clare,the operative word is SUSPECTED.You dont have to prove anything, it only needs to be suspected. I lot of people dont know this but vets are actually,( in the words of their own code of ethics,RCVS)
ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED to report suspected adverse reactions to Veterinary Medicines Directorate.You can report it yourself, infact anyone can make a report. All you do is contact VMD & ask for form.I have got it a bit wrong, it is Suspected Adverse Reaction Surveillance Scheme(SARSS) sorry.The VMD is an executive agency of DEFRA & they inveatigate all adverse reactions,human aswell as animals to all drugs not only vaccines.If say they get a lot of reports about a particular drug or vaccine they can then take it off the market.BUT, if so few vets(& not a lot of people know about it) do not report these suspected reactions how can the VMD get a true picture of the drugs/vaccines?
Reading the bit you wrote about the M being "RARE",that is EXACTLY what I was told. I have a 5yr old dog, & his dams vacc wre due but she was due to be mated. Vet said "give her them now, she will pass on wonderful antibodies to her pups" He gave her the vacc day before she was mated(this was when I didnt know any better).At 3mths age he started limping on the back leg,6mths diagnosis was Ephyseal(extended growth plates).11mths & it had effected 2 back &1 front limb I was told then that it was extremely rare, & that is what I was also told when things went wrong with my litter last year. Here is me with 2 rare cases, you with 1, how many more? When we had the meeting with Merial last year & I heard the word RARE I just said MY FOOT & went in the house & refused to talk to them.Nearly everyone I have talked to who suspects the vacc say the vet has told them its rare.Like you,its too late now to do anything about my dog but I get so angry hearing "rare". Judging by the amount of animals having reactions it is NOT rare.For the future tho if anybody does suspect the vaccines or drugs get the vet to fill out the form & if he wont, then do it youself. Have you thought any more about feeding her a natural diet? I dont envy you having to think about your young ones booster tho.
Christine

Claire, I never heard from you via email so will post the info here. We have an Akita , a breed that is known for blood complications and it is advised by some to NOT vaccinate. He did get a round or so of puppy vaccines before we bought him. He had a horrible skin problem with lesions all over and he was biting himself raw and losing patches of hair. 3 trips to the vet didn't help. I finally came across a product called The Missing Link, it has the omega 3 fatty acids, in a powder form. I put that in his food and within 2 weeks he was completely clear! His fur grew back and he looks great! We did him a rabies vaccine, the only one required by our state, but nothing else. Just wanted to let you know what we did for our pup. We also bought a peek-a-pom that had received vaccines the day before we bought him. He had blood in his stool for several days after, then was fine. He did not receive any further vaccines. For the record, my son basically stopped growing after a round of vaccines, stopped growing for almost 2 yrs, now is very slow to grow. He was 14.5 pounds at the age of 7.5 when he received his 3rd round of vaccines. He is now 3.5 years old and only weighs 23 pounds.

Hope this helps,

Christine