Hi, I'm looking for a gun dog (labrador retriever) I've found someone to train my dog and myself and a gunclub that will let me join BUT...what things should I look out for in a pup or should I buy a 6month old ready to start some training and if this is the case what do I need to see in the pup which might indicate that she (I want a bitch) would beable to do field trials and working tests.Out of interest I have a choc lab retriever who has some drakeshead and pocklea remus in his blood . Does anyone know if these 2 are still producing pups?

THANKS SONJA

Pocklea and Drakeshead are still in being.

Two things are involved when buying a 6 month old. You have a better idea exactly what you are getting, but the breeder also has a better idea what they are selling!! If you were the breeder and you thought it was a world beater would you sell it? Possibly, if you already had enough world beaters but. . . . . . .

As a personal thought, and I was only chatting to a friend about this yesterday, I would go for a young puppy every time. (She had just the oppersite view!)

Obviously if you want to work in Field Trials you want the best bitch you can get. A few kennels to bear in mind would be Drakeshead and Pocklea of course, Birdbrook, Willowyck and Endacott. There are plenty of others but almost without fail they would have a waiting list. A friend recently brough a Willowyck puppy "Off the shelf" but only because the original person on the list suddenly died! Owners of good stud dogs are useful to talk to because they know who is using their dogs. Explain exactly what your intentions are because it is not in the interest of any responsible breeder to sell you rubbish, it would do their reputation no good at all.

Regards, John

Quite a big subject, but a few pointers...

A few dogs that were sold on as older pups or even as trained dogs have gone on to become Field Trial Champions, however, as John has said, they are usually sold because they haven't quite got what it takes for a trial performer.

First and foremost you need to be looking at the mother of the pups. Many FTCh stud dog owners are not that choosy about which bitches are mated to their dogs and very few stud dogs can make up for the shortcomings of an indifferent bitch. On the other hand, the owner of a really good bitch is not going to use a poor stud dog.

Generally, I'd be looking for the bitch to have some trial awards, preferably gained over a number of trials which should indicate trainability, a good mouth, absence of whining and allround ability. There are plenty of decent bitches in non-trialling hands, but it takes a bit more experience to spot a good bitch with an indifferent trainer.  Generally pups from FTCh bitches end up being sold to other known triallers, however you do occasionally see them advertised. You are usually more likely to be able to get a lab from top trial breeding if you want a dog rather than bitch puppy.

From a cost point of you I would expect that you could get a lab pup from even the best breeding for under about £700. Expensive? Not when you think that you have to pay well over £1000 for other breeds that will do nothing but eat, sleep and c**p! (not mentioning the breeds! ;-))

Virtually all labrador pups from trialling kennels will be from hip scored and eye tested parents, so there is no need to compromise on health issues. (I cant say the same about springers or cockers though)

However well trained a dog is, if it doesn't work with speed, drive and style its not going to win anything other than very minor awards. Therefore you need to avoid a 'plodder'. However, for a novice trainer with limited ability or requirements, this type of dog may be much more suitable.

If you can, try and get yourself to a few working tests and field trials. This will give you an idea of the kind of dog that is winning, and you may find out about some proposed litters.

You have not mentioned whether you already work your current dog in the field. Before entering field trials, your new dog will need sufficient experience in the shooting field. It will help you significantly if you have the older dog to work as well, so that you can avoid putting your trial contender in situations that may undo its training. 

Another point, is that some of the top peforming trial dogs can be a bit of a handful, and are not always suitable for an inexperienced handler (obviously I have no idea how good a trainer you are), its definitely worth being brutally honest about your own training ability and if you dont feel confident, try and get some advice about getting a pup from an 'easier' line.

The kennels mentioned by John consistently deliver the goods. A few other examples being Greenbriar, Brindlebay, Olivertash, Ropehall, Tweedshot, Craighorn, Hatchfield, Tasco etc. etc. There are also people, that whilst not being the 'biggest names' consistently breed and train quality dogs.  If you join the forum perhaps we can get a bit more background information and get you some contacts local to yourself.

Can I just say those two pieces of advice from John and Havoc were excellent and thought provoking reading. Thanks from a non lab (working breed person) your replies were refreshing and honest.

John you are right when you say;
Quote.

>>>>> Explain exactly what your intentions are because it is not in the interest of any responsible breeder to sell you rubbish, it would do their reputation no good at all. <<<<<

It would be a better world with less dogs in rescue if all puppy buyers did this.

And Havoc I think you hit the nail on the head with this.
Quote.

>>>>>>First and foremost you need to be looking at the mother of the pups. Many FTCh stud dog owners are not that choosy about which bitches are mated to their dogs and very few stud dogs can make up for the shortcomings of an indifferent bitch. On the other hand, the owner of a really good bitch is not going to use a poor stud dog.<<<<<

How right you are but this applies to Ch of both field and show I think and most breeds - including my own (Staffords).Find a good quality bitch, and you will not go far wrong with the pup.

Karen

Thankyou all very much for all your advice it was more than I had expected. My chocie lab ret doesn't work because he wouldn't make it but he's great fun and I do lots of obedience with him. I have never had a working dog before but have followed trials so have an idea about the type of dog that would suit me.Could anyone give me the phone numbers of the dogs/ kennels/breeders mentioned I have the  drakeshead number. I have moved back to northern Ireland lastyear having lived in England 13years so I don't know who has well bred pups can anyone help? Also do you think it is essential to ensure that the parents are champions or at least have proved themselves.

I dont have any of the numbers to hand as i'm in the office however i'd guess that you would be able to find many of them by searching the internet. Also the Shooting Times & Shooting Gazette regularly carry adverts for some of these kennels.

The only affix that we listed that is in Ireland is Tasco owned by Alan Rountree. I've watched him run in the Retriever Championships and he is amongst the best handlers in the UK. He currently runs a dog called FTCh Rozel Rocket of Tasco who is an extremely consistent dog having qualified for the Retriever Championships on about five (i think) occasions as well as winning the Irish Champs. Rockets sire is FTCh Pocklea Remus who has had a massive influence on modern working labradors.

There are plenty of quality trialling labs bred in Ireland (both North & South) noteable other examples being Glenbriar, Ulstare, Raughlin & Astraglen. Most of these strains have significant amount of English & Scottish bloodlines in them.

Its not essential that the mother is a champion. FTCh bitches can produce their share of failures, however if you want a trialling dog I'd look for one that has at least some awards. A good indicator is if a trialler is retaining some of the the litter for themselves (as some will breed litters purely for sale). Probably the best approach (if you can) is to get a pup from a repeat mating from a bitch that has previously bred FTChs or winners. This will obviously require some time and effort, but is arguably the most reliable method. Many FTChs are bred from non-FTCh mothers so it is not essential that both parents are titled.

As I have said previously, if you can secure a pup from a really good bitch, the breeder will have done the worrying about the stud dog for you. I'm often impressed when an owner of a top trialling bitch uses a non-titled stud dog, as it often shows that they have given real thought to the choice of dog rather than using a fashionable sire.

I don't like putting phone numbers on an open board unless the person already has a web site with their number on. So rather that post them here I'll PM them to you later this evening. If you are not sure how to see PM's (Personal Messages) click on "Message" at the top of this screen.

Regards, John

THANKS so much for all your help and advice.I MUST say I'm absolutly amazed at the wealth of knowledge you have,and very grateful that you share it. I'm looking hard at pups up to 6 months at the moment, have heard that someone fairly local has a good bitch 6 months with lots of champs in her pedigree, he has apparently kept 2 from the litter and have saw her half sister work nicely, we'll see what happens! 

Let us know how your getting on Sonja. Anything I can do to help.

Regards, John

Well I would really like your on going help and as the old saying goes "wish you were here" however I will do my best in choosing the right bitch, most suited to me, as Havoc said I must look at my own ability as a trainer and I agree I need to find a bitch that will suit me. I also agree with you John, I am a realistic person and understand that if I take this bitch she may very well not be a world class girlie, however perhaps if I could achieve a consistant reasonable performance I would be better prepared for my next gundog and would have learnt so much from my first dog. Ideally I would like to give the bitch a litter from one of the dogs on the list which John gave me and keep one for myself. Could you recommend any books or videos/DVDs which would be useful,( A friend has kindly let me borrow "training your gundog" by James Douglas). Many thanks Sonja

Videos. Anna likes Stan Harvey's "Gundog Training the young Labrador retriever" There is a dog in there, "Skeet" and she goes all dewy eyed when she sees him! It's only real failing is that it is difficult to hear the whistle. The Drakeshead video's are also good. Books I like, "Gundogs, their learning chain" by Joe Irving. It is a general training book including spaniels as well as retrievers but is worth the read. Another is "Retriever Training the modern way" by the late Susan Scales.

The videos are available from www.turnerrichards.co.uk and books from Amazon.

Regards, John

I'd agree with John on the Stan Harvey video (which just covers the basics) and the two Drakeshead videos (Basic & Advanced). I'd also recommend getting one or two Retriever Championship videos, which will show you some of the best handlers in the country working some of the best dogs in the country. They are not an instructional video, but you can pick up lots of handling tips just by watching and give you a standard to aspire to. The videos can be obtained from www.paulfrenchvideo.com

Other good books are Retriever Training by Michael Twist & Nigel Mann and Gundogs : Training & Field Trials by Peter Moxon (a classic manual although slightly dated now)

Training classes can be valuable if you have any local. I've also learnt loads by watching poor trainers as they show you how NOT to do it!

If you can train your pup to a standard that it becomes an asset on a shooting day, you should get plenty of gundog work for it. Once you have got a decent working dog and some training and gundog work experience under your belt, training  subsequent dogs for trialling becomes more straightforward.

I dont mean to be picky, but please make sure your pup has Field Trial Champions (FTCh) in the pedigree rather than Champions (CH) or Show Champions (ShCh) which are both show awards and irrelevant to a working dog.

Best of luck!