Help! We have a beautiful KC registered Boxer male who is 2 yrs old and a 19month old female who when purchased was supplied with pedigree form but this might not be worth the paper it was written on? Would it be ok to breed from them and is it possible to register the bitch with the kennel club? any advice would be appreciated.

There is a post at the top of this section about the pros....well actually mostly cons of breeding from your dog.  As regards this bitch then, no she should not be bred from, she may look lovely to you but as you say you don't really know the accuracy of her pedigree so you don't really know anything about the lines she has come from in terms of what faults or health issues she could throw.  As an unregistered dog you cannot have her tested under the KC/BVA schemes and it is vital that boxers are heart tested and hip tested, with good scores before being bred and problems arising with the pups due to failure to test could land you with serious vet fees at least and even a day in court not to mention how awful you would feel for the pups suffering.  Finally if she was a quality, registered bitch you would probably be going to shows and making a selection from about 20 possible matches at least so 1:20 is the best odds I would give that this dog and this bitch are a good match :)

If the bitch's pedigree is not what is shown on her paperwork then you could be breeding her to a close relative or she could be from breeding that has genetic defects that should not be bred to

There is of course nothing to stop you breeding from your two dogs, but what you will be doing is breeding the known to the unknown & leaving yourself open to being sued if the puppies developed gentic defects, ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.

There are hundreds of boxers that go through rescue every year & most are like the GSDs that go through our GSD rescue from breeders who breed from their pets for no reason other than wanting a puppy from much loved pets

Don't forget as stud dog & bitch owner you will 100% responsible for those puppies from whelping box to grave. Your dog will want to mate your bitch everytime she comes into season & he could develop some very unwanted behaviour such as marking everywhere & bitching everytime he gets a whiff of a bitch

Breeding needs a serious commitment to your breed & the dogs you produce

As has been said elsewhere a very experienced breed has just had the heartache of watching 6 out of 9 puppies die. One of which would have been mine & I got to the stage that I dare not contact him in case another had died. Could you face something like that, or losing your beloved bitch during a C section or having your dog bitching everytime you go out which believe me is not pleasant

Only the person who breeds a particular dog can register it with the KC (and that's the only registration that has any value at all), so all you can do is contact her breeder and ask for her to be registered if possible.

To be honest - there are plenty of Boxer puppies that have both parents KC registered being born
every year - I think registration figures are in excess of 9000 pups per year.

You would need to have both the male and the female heart tested and cleared at the minimum for health testing.
Most informed puppy purchasers these days ask that the parents be heart tested and they are bothered about
getting a puppy from heart tested clear breeding stock. Also most are concerned that they get a KC registered pup.
Heart testing should ideally be done with a vet that specialises in cardiology, it can be done fairly cheaply at Boxer breed shows.

Why not check with the UK kennel club to see if your bitch has been KC-registered?
If you have her sire and dam's KC registered name plus the bitch's date of birth and the breeders name and address
they may be able to confirm if there was a litter registered with them.
Although the data protection act may prevent them from disclosing the full details etc.
It is only possible for the bitches breeder to register the bitch at the KC and then this can only happen if both the
bitches parents were KC-registered, it would also cost £50 per dog to be registered.
There may be a reason that the bitch wasn't KC registered as the parents may have had their pedigrees endorsed
progeny not eligible for registration. This may be because they have a health fault or breed fault that the breeder
felt should not be bred from.

The other thing which I can HONESTLY say if you are desperate for another puppy Boxer it is far easier, cheaper and much less
hard work and heartache to buy a KC registered pup from a breeder than it is to breed one yourself.
I'm talking from experience as a Boxer owner, exhibitor and VERY occasional breeder :)
Who now co-owns a youngster of a year old whom I did not breed myself - much less stressful and she's a naughty madam! :D

Reading your post you seem to come up with some good advice.
There are a lot of unreg puppies about this does not make them all bad ?
Take the advice and get both your dogs tested for the heart test and go from there as long as both parents are fit and well there should be no reason why we all have to start somewhere.
I know im going to get flack from this post but there are always snobs in breeding who think only breeders should breed we all have to start some where and even top breeders make mistakes in there breeding !!!
This is how we learn ?

Can you explain how to get KC/BVA testing scored when the dog is not registered?

Not easy! ;)

The non reg dog can be put on the activity(WT/Obedience)register & then X rayed & scored the same as a fully registered dog but(& it is a big BUT)the only way the puppies could be registered is with the KC is on the activity register, but the KC can refuse to register the puppies the reg cert you get makes this clear & the puppies must have the fact that they are on Activity register & not the main register

All very useful for people partaking of these sports but as Brainless has pointed out of no value at all to the Breed as the pups would never be of use to the Breed gene pool.

Arr yes MM but they would then not be unregistered ;)

Regards, John

True John but if the puppies are sold with rhe wording in the advert that they are KC reg & not KCAR reg they are in breach of trading standards which a local guy got fined for doing & ordered to pay back all the money he had earned from the mislead customers

Well if I was going to breed (which I'm NOT) and believe me, I have thought about doing it in the very far future with my breeders knowledge and support, I would make dam sure that my dog/s were KC registered, research and know of the breeds faults thoroughly, including genetic etc, and then, as I said,  would use my breeder as a mentor.

Yes, we all have to start somewhere, but not without the years of experience of the breed, years of absorbing information but most of all, I would not, under any circumstances feel very confident going about this huge task and commitment without somebody advising and guiding me all the way!!

Don't do it!

"We all have to start somewhere" Yes, we do, but surely it is common sense to start with the best you possibly can. This is not (no matter how beautiful) with an unregistered bitch, which therefore cannot be health tested and cannot have her lines traced back so that the best possible stud can be found.

I am sorry but breding from unregistered stock is not the place to start.  It can't take you anywhere can it?  You will not be able to register the offspring or breed with the best of stock available.  If you want to do it properly forget breedeing from the unregistered bitch whose background breeding you will not be certain of or be able to study.  Instead join the bred club, attend shows and working events.  Get an idea of which breeders type appeals to you most and ask to be put on their waiting list for a good puppy with a view to showing and if all turns out as hoped breeding in the future.  By this time you will have got to know the breed better will know which stud dogs have belnded well with which bitches lines, which faults are prevalent and to be avoided, which are of less importance and where you can go to hopfully improve on your bitches traits.  this cannot be done outwith the regitration system, where in the main there are poorly irresponsibly and haphazardly bred examples, or else they would have been registered.

there are enough dogs out there bred without any purpose other than to sell, and the homes afe full of them as none of the breeders want to be responsible for what they ahve produced and the owners have dicarded.

Kennelsitter what incredible advice to give out..

HOW can someone start somewhere with unregistered stock, you could breed 20 generations but still have unregistered stock..

Poster, save your money buy a decent foundation bitch from a decent breeder and then with their guidance and mentoring take it from there.

If you are going to do something do it RIGHT !!!!

Even the Jack Russell Terrier did not get to be a KC recognised breed in the lifetime of the Reverend gentleman. No the Plummer Terrier during the lifetime of the Doctor!

Regards, John

This person may not interested in showing? theres the DLRC whiched is used by most of the puppy farmers .
At least this bitch will be in the home and the pups raised in the home instead of some shed or cage .Theres more out there then showing dogs?they can be pets where they dont have to be subject to the way some show dogs lives there lives.
After all its a choice and most people like to get there pups from the hobby or one off breeder where the pups are raised in the home with the famerly.

There's also more to the Kennel Club registration certificate than being able to show the dog at KC licenced events.

Dawn R.

<<<<at least this bitch will be in the home and the pups raised in the home instead of some shed or cage .Theres more out there then showing dogs?they can be pets where they dont have to be subject to the way some show dogs lives there lives.>>>

I think you need to do some research before you make such statements and insulting people like me who show our dogs! Do you really think that people who show their dogs don't care about their animals and treat them less well thean people who don't! Ashow dog must be fir and in gleaming condition and health to do well in the ring....you don't get that through mistreating them.Them must show with 'soarkle' to catch the judges eye...something which is gained through love and affection between dog and owner.
My dogs are better treated that any 'purely pet' dog I know and most show dog owners and breeders are the same as me.There are FAR MORE mistreated pets out there than show dogs beleive me!
Archer

>My dogs are better treated that any 'purely pet' dog I know and most show dog owners and breeders are the same as me.There are FAR MORE mistreated pets out there than show dogs beleive me!

Well said, Archer.

Yes you are right about show dogs being in the best condition  but how about the brood bitches that breed the show dogs that never see the show ring ?
Come on be honest not all dogs make show standard and some not all breeders do keep dogs in not so good condition as you!have you never been out to see a fellow breeders home and saw things that you would not do?
Read my other post on here iv seen top breeders kennels and trust me not all there dogs are trated the same has the in dogs that go the shows they are trated well but the others are not im not going to name names but theres a lot out there .
This is not a witch hunt on bad breeders it should be about breeding sound and healthy dogs?

"how about the brood bitches that breed the show dogs ...."

Personally I would only use a bitch that HAD won well in the ring :D - you can only get the best quality by breeding form the best and showing gives you a measurable indication of the quality of your dogs. Why would you expect to breed a show winning dog from a bitch that was not good enough to show ?

Yvonne

Exactly, Yvonne.
:)

If the bitch is unregistered she will also not be hip-scored etc, and nor can any of her offspring be.

Kennelsitter - in a post on another thread you said you have been showing dogs for four years and have had a litter - so presumably you are referring to how you keep and breed your dogs then? If you like, you can visit me and see how the rest of us show people keep our dogs!

In a previous post KS said he has bred both  rough and border collies ....
Archer

it was Rough and Smooth collies only  had one border collie and two shelties but they where (rescues ) the shelties lived 4 yrs in a shed in a garden and was in there own mess and mated to the bone and just used to breed from ,the border collie came to me as I used to run a training club and the owners was going to put it to sleep as shes could not handle her.
So dont think im new to all this Iv seen things most only read about and its not nice having to walk away from dealers has theres nothing you can do to help the poor dogs as the law dont help thats why i can say some dogs dont have great lives iv seen them.
But this was back in the 80/90s
One kennel I took one Rough collie and a Dobe out of  the dogs was so thin all bones with no weight on them there was others there but could only help a few the police did close it down after pestering but the RSPCA did nothing as there was food and water about but a few years later the owner was winning BIS and still breeding .
But this is not about this post just wot iv seen .

Yes but how owuld any of this be improved by encouraging a Pet woner to produce unregistered pups from an unregistered bitch???  the purpose of breeding any litter shoudl be to uphold the dtandard of the breed, one would expect the best stock which is the only stock that should be bred from is Kennel Club registered, coming as it shoudl do from knowledgeable breeders who are proud of what they have bred.

Such pups are no use teo the breeds gene pool, as they can be used to only produce more unregistered stock.

Many breeders of such pups have never even read the breed standard, judging by the quality of the dogs they are breeding.

I get your point on breeding sound dogs but even good breeders breed bad ones ?nothing in breeding dog is sure you never know wot you going to get when you use a stud dog on your bitch you can study line and type but there could be a common link 10 gens back that comes up?
In collies I tested for CEA/PRA only breeding from clear stock.
I fellow breeder had a bitch line of 15 gen of clear line and the male she traced 8 gens of clear the whole litter had CEA so you see you can never be sure but only thing to do is try our best to breed sound healty dogs.

In my prev post I said iv been showing a new breed to me I have been showing and breeding dogs since 1975.
If you read my post i said like some breeders and show people I kennel sit for show breeders and have seen the way some dogs are kept one well known breeder kepts there dogs in crates and only lets them out to change the paper in there cages and each dogs in caged single as to keep there coat in good condition for show so this is ok?
There are other one off jobs iv done and a few I will not do has the way they keep theres dogs is wrong.
Iv seen all sorts and its from people you see winning BIS so some dont keep there dogs right and will stick by my org post on it your dogs are lucky but not all are so lucky to have owners who care for there dogs.
My dogs all live in the home and are pets first I show and if they win good but I take home the same dog I take out.
Yes its good to win a CC or BIS but also good to meet friends and see the new lot of dogs out there.
Each breed as many types and we all dont like all dogs in our breed how many times have you been to a show and see a dog win a class that was not to the standard but was being shown by the in breeder?
This post was about a bitch that only has a pedigee it might be KC reg no one knows the breeding only the owner who knows it could be by well know stock?
The questions should be where did you get your bitch from and work from there .

so I assume you put in  a complaint and voiced your disgust at these people who are mistreating their dogs!
Archer

Im only one person these people think how they keep there dogs are right wot can be done? they are well fed and groommed and clean nothing can be done.
A few years ago a well know sheltie breeder was banned we saw the pics how many other breeders went there and thought it was ok how the dogs was kept?
How many other we know about we dont like how they keep there dogs ?
But this is another topic?
Name and shame ?
Think a few would be shocked on here on how many breeders rully do treat there dogs like it.

The difference being the Gatherals were  also living in the same conditions as their dogs & all the dogs were clean & groomed Even The RSPCA admitted that there was actually no cruelty only poor conditions

They health tested all their dogs & the RSPCA in their wisdom castrated the only known CEA genetically clear dog in the breed who ended up with a top offical in the RSPCA

At least this bitch will be in the home and the pups raised in the home instead of some shed or cage .Theres more out there then showing dogs?they can be pets where they dont have to be subject to the way some show dogs lives there lives.

My show dogs are first & foremost my pets They are at this time snoozing away having had a hectic day relandscaping the garden & improving their escape tunnel, they are not kept in sterile condtions & certainly not in cages or kennels. When they go to a show they are bathed the day before in the late evening & groomed & after they have been in the ring & finished showing they are ordinary dogs until the next day, they queue up to get bathed as they know it means a trip out & being even more spoilt that usually, in fact before they are bathed they know if we are going to a show as i cook them fresh organic chicken & get the show things ready, as soon as I do that they follow me round like bees following the queen bee incase they miss something. I would defy anyone to say that the majority of show dogs dislike being shown The ones that don't like showing are very obvious

Well unlike you I did not like to metion names but yes they where living in the same conditions as the dogs so thats ok then to you for anyone to live like that?

they where living in the same conditions as the dogs so thats ok then to you for anyone to live like that

Where did I say that ??????? I do know the RSPCA neglected the dogs that were in their care & did not give them medication they had been perscribed which resulted in one dog having to have surgery ! as well as the horrific manner in which they used a running noose to snare young puppies by the neck(we are talking of 4 week old cavaliers)all in front of the local TV cameras

They are very proud old fashioned ladies who let things get out of hand & paid the penalty of losing all their dogs They needed help not villification

Now the Top poodle guy who got away of neglecting one of his dogs should have been banned for life he had no real excuse, but because he has money & staus & friends in hugh places nothing happened to him

yes I also agree with you on the other person you metioned but he did get away with just goes to show my point that not all dog breeders are good?
With the first case wot gets me noone in the breed who went there to use there dogs at stub never said or donr or even offerd to help? This mess does not take weeks it takes mths and years to get like it but there was to top of the breed?
So we should have gone there to buy puppies wot does that show us ?its ok to live in mess?not a good show case not sure why you are defending them they did wrong .

>With the first case wot gets me noone in the breed who went there to use there dogs at stub never said or donr or even offerd to help?

Perhaps you're too young to understand how proud elderly people can be. 'Charity' to many is a shameful thing.

There was a heck of a lot more to that case than you seem to realise - such as, were the two dogs that the RSPCA let run away in terror ever located? (That was on the day they'd agreed not to visit to check how the improvements were coming on.) Friends had been helping clean up over the past few days, and even the RSPCA vets couldn't find any signs of neglect or ill-treatment in the condition of any of the dogs.

>all dog breeders are good

Not all pet owners are good either. Don't generalise.

With the first case wot gets me noone in the breed who went there to use there dogs at stub never said or donr or even offerd to help

and how does this differ to you turnig a blind eye to the goings on at the places you kennel sat! Double standards don't you think

Kennel sitter, Like most things in life people want to see that you are in for the long run, why should people just hand you the best of eerything right away. You have to do a bit of work, show you are keen, that you have the welfare at heart and are not looking just to breed puppies.   When you show you are keen you will be amazed how many extend a hand.

With the first case wot gets me noone in the breed who went there to use there dogs at stub never said or donr or even offerd to help? This mess does not take weeks it takes mths and years to get like it but there was to top of the breed

You obviously do not know anything about the ladies, if you wanted to use one of their dogs or buy a puppy you were never allowed to visit them so no one saw what was going on, baiscally one of the ladies was seriously ill & that is when the problems started, they would not accept help & would not asked for any either. My friend who has shelties bought a puppy from them & never went to their home, the bitch was beautiful & in tip top shape & health & did a lot of winning & bred on & improved my friends dogs quality.

They were not the top kennels at the time. even tho' they had some beautiful dogs with some superb breeding behind them, things simply got out of hand & had people been able to visit & would have helped when their plight was discovered their true friends rallied round & got things sorted.

Younger breeders have no such excuse & they are the ones who know that they are not treating the dogs right. Just because a dog is kept in clean surroundings doesn't mean they receive the right care. I know of a top breeder who has a toy breed that never comes into the house & for this breed not to have human company is terrible, because they are kennel dogs she did not realize that some of her dogs(6 to be precise)have a genetic disability that sometimes has little or no symptoms & the mild symptome can only been seen if the dog is with the owner 24/7. Now she knows due to the problem appearing in their puppies that go to other breeders & pet homes. Another top breeder was appalled about the dogs being kept in kennels as she has more dogs & they all live in house(which is a beautiful home with everything the dogs & people could want or need & in perfect condition)

I do not want to breed again so opt to have male dogs(which i prefer anyway)so I am never tempted to have a litter if I have a really nice dog

I remember a similar thing happening to A GSD lady. She would never see a dog "At Risk" and rescued so many. She could never bring herself to part with any. Eventually the inevitable happened and she fell foul of the RSPCA and this poor frail old lady found herself in court.

I'm sure MM will know exactly who I'm referring to.

Regards, John

What we must also remeber is that things may be a bit ramshackle in many doggie homes (I am no advert for tidiness) but if the animals are fit, clean and happy who are we to judge if theings are tatty.  Many prefer to spend the money on the dogs rather than on their home and themselves.

Also we are getting well off topic.

The question was whether it was OK to breed from unregistered stock.

On the basis that breeding should be for the maintenance and improvement of the breed then it is definately no.  the unregistered stock cannot be of benefit to the breeds gene pool.  New owners should be entitled to have the best quality and health in the pups they buy that it is possible to produce.

Many people fail to realise, being rather anthropomorphic, that just because an animal can reproduce, doesn't mean it should.  Only a very few dogs in any litter are breeding quality.

Surly if no one was allowed to visit that would surely say they was hidding someting? is that not wot puppy farmers do never show there kennels?as if they did no one would buy there pups if they see how they keep there dog?

you are write i myself have seen dogs being treated in un fair conditions an have reported on two ocations to the rspca , to have nothing done , they say if a dog has food, water and shelter then it is cared for. you all so made a good point that most show dogs are cared for well but its the brood bitches hwo tend to suffer only being pampered when they have a litter of pups .i think the kennel club should regulate the amount of dogs people own, a dog needs individaul attention to a degree and having loads of dogs in kennels there is no way anyone could provide each dog with attention. i am not saying they could not care for the dogs i just think there should only be so many dogs pro owner.

Brood bitches in my breed have been known to take Best of Breed at Championship Shows. After having litters.

Obesity is known to be the most common health problem in dogs. And it's not in show dogs. It's in 'pets'.

If you look up details for Sh Ch Afterglow Arrabella, you will see that she returned to the show ring after raising a litter and finished the year as Top Gundog, and 2nd Top Dog All Breeds.  Not a sign that show brood bitches are substandard, or not treated to  the best conditions.

These posts from Kennelsitter and 1 or 2 others  are such sweeping statements to make about the conditions in which show kennels keep their dogs.  What a lot of "pet owners" dont understand is that some dogs actually ARE NOT house dogs.  My own recently departed boy had 7 very happy retirement years with me, and much as I would have loved to have him inside it was impossible.  As a very activley used stud dog in his prime, he was impossible to keep clean inside, marking terrority on every piece of furniture, door frame etc.  He also could not be trusted with other males.  However, a happier boy you could not meet.  He had a luxurous kennel with long run, lot of multi level paly equipment, and a "harem"  He also had  lots of human interaction, excercise etc.  What you have to remember is that full time owners give a bunch of dogs equal "me" time as the average working, pet owning family, with many other, non-doggy commitments.

Next, taking up the discussion abouth the Gatherals, my ex partner lived along the lane from them, at the time of the |RSPCA raid.  It was not a case that you did not get to visit - I had taken a friend' s bitch along to be mated on a coule of occassions, and it all happened outside.  You just jever got to cross the threshold into the house.  It is a lot of years since I was there, but my ex assured me nothing had changed, but that he saw the sisters and dogs regularly, and they were visible happy, healthy, clean, well presented dogs.  I remember on one of my visits seeing into the old stable yard and seeing a bunch of dalmatioans and dachsis running free in a  large yeard area, all in gleaming, hard , fit conditon.  The shelti compound, in front of the house,contained similarly  happy, healthy dogs.  From my own experience I can say how extremely active the sisters were in rescue, not only sheltis but all breeds in which they had been interested.  We received a phone call form them one weekend beggin us to find space from some dachsis in need.  When I said yes, it transpired the dogs were near Stafford - we lived near Sunderland at the time!  Miss Gatheral's dedication to the needs of the dogs  is so great that she talked me into the trip, and we went and brought home the girls.

Finally, getting back to the original posters questions, they have been given such good advice by brainless and a lot ofo ther posters, please dont be led astray by Kennelsitters misguided "Advice".  If you want to breed dogs, start of right, if you just want another puppy, then go out and find yourself a responsible, caring breeder who does all health tests, and book one of theirs.  Dont even think of breeding from your girl

bye
Gwen

I think fayestaff was referring to the bitches that are not show dogs they are just breeding dogs that are not show type that are in kennels

Well my rteluctant brood took Two more CCs, several BOB at Champ shows without CCs and places in Champion stakes and third in the group after having her liter.  She probably won't have any more pups as she doesn't like the act of procreation, but would never have had more than 3 litters anyway. 

I would be very against regulation of the numbers of dogs anyone can keep.  some people barely cope with one dog, others keep a large kennel and employ staff to help with routine stuff.

For a dog to show it has to have a raport with it'sw handler, and be happy in the very busy people and dog crowded atmosphere at shows.  Your average Pet only dog would find it difficutl to cope.

Brood bitches and show dogs arte not seperate entities.  In my breed you have bitches sdtill winning CCs at 11 years old after several litters, and they tend to live into their teens.

I have five generations here and they all go out together, the oldest barely slowing up yet.