i was at a agm meeting yesterday,over dinner the subject was about breeding ,but two breeders were saying that there is herpes virus going round which the puppies dies aftre couple of days,one breeder lost one puppie one day the next day the whole lot had die,but a postmorten show this virus,has any one else hear of this virus going round,what the side effects,can we keep it under control,or is it like the same as foot/ mouth in cattle,on another post under polly some one said there has been alot of absorption in bitch has well.

Herpes Infection In Dogs

thank you very intresting.

well yes there has been a lot of foetal absorption lately. my bitch being one. BUT she has no infections of any description. So I dont know what the problem is neither does my vet, my only explanation is , nearly three yrs ago she a large litter of 13 puppies. she took nearly 2 1/2 days to have them. she really had a terrible time , she left me raise them , and was more interested in my grandchild than her babies. showed little or no interest in a litter another bitch had last year. where as my 14 yr old collie wanted them for herself. So I think she did not want pups I wonder if that is possible. mari

There seems to be a lot in the equine world as well (in America where most of my breeding contacts are anyway) :-( The major problem there seems to be a mould which grows on Fescue grass - has any kind of investtigation been done here to see if there is a common reason?

Fran

"My, My"....what a busy crowd you've all been this past week. Not that anyone has missed me....but, I sure have missed out on some really great threads.
Finally, caught up to one that has just started and one that is of great interest. I don't know how relevent my comments will be, because I am not convinced the reabsorbtion issue and death of an entire litter is due to a virus, bacteria, or any other disease.
I am in the states, so I am pretty far removed from the center of any outbreak in diseases or viruses that would be developing in the U.K. Furthermore, my dogs are not exposed to "any" other dogs, except their trip to the vet for their annual check up & vaccinations, and a couple of trips per year to the groomer, located at the same vet clinic. But, I too have had reabsorptions and loss of litters within the first week.....and had
not experienced this before 1996. I think that was the year I had 2-reabsorptions and lost two litters of puppies - - with no "apparent" reason for the reabsorptions and with no conclusive results from the necropsies. I am not saying the puppies weren't affected by a herpes virus or any other virus, because I'm sure the University that did the necropsy didn't spend a research grant trying to find out why 8 little puppies died their first week. Especially, since my vet thoroughly checked out the moms and found nothing wrong with either of them.
So what I am suggesting, is maybe it was a virus or maybe it was some other common denominator. When I think back trying to come up with something, I keep coming back to one thing. This was the first year I switched over to using Frontline exclusively. Which I will say, was and has been a "GOD-SEND" I dread to think of having to go back to before this product came on the market. My dogs have not had a flea, nor have I even seen a flea on my premises or entire property for over 5-years. Before then, I absolutely dreaded flea season, it was a "never-ending battle".
But, being an overly suspicious individual to begin with and a firm believer in "everything comes at cost" I have to wonder if there is any correlation. All of the modern "wonder" flea products, be it sentinal, advantage, frontline and/or revolution (your brand names are probably different--but they are the same products) are all in some way based on interruption or interference with the fleas reproduction cycle or sterilization on thru the interruption or interference with the fleas "life-cyle" ie., death of an "entire" litter within the first week. That is definately interruption of their life cyle. Reabsorption of puppies is definately interruption or interference of the reproduction cycle. I have also had false pregnancies occur as well, which would best fit under the category of sterilization.
If these products affect the reproduction systems and nervous systems of fleas, would it be so far-fetched of an idea to suspect they may also (to some extent) affect
these same systems when applied to our dogs? And, No, I did not apply it when they were pregnant or nursing. But I would imagine these products remain in their system for quite sometime. Infact I never apply it monthly. It is usually a two-to-three month interval in application. So it wouldn't even be due to the fact I applied too much.

If anyone had the fortitude to make through my post, I would love to hear your opinions; even if it is to say I'm "nuts".

As a user of Frontline I shall be watching this thread with interest. Over the years most things we have taken as "Nateral Causes" have been prooved to have underlying cause so i suppose you could havea case here.

Marie, do you use Frontline?

Regards, John

Oh well . . . sorry John . . . I had hoped there would have been some opinions on this too. . .

Suppose, no one wanted to be the first to call me "nuts" :)

I'm definitely not calling you nuts Bee. I remember when the first of what could be called the "New generation" of flea treatment, Ex-Spot, came out I read the instructions very carefully and decided to leave well alone! Talking to my vet some years later, he recommended Frontline as about the safest of the sprays and I have used it ever since. Working my dogs it's useful to have a spray which is still operating after the dog has been retrieving in water but by the same token, if it's able to linger on in those conditions, is there likely to be any long term effects? It's all a bit worrying!
It's a shame this post is buried away at the bottom of a thread rather than posted as a new topic.

Regards, John

john you said you worried about the long team affects,what about the the flea progamme that is taken oral.this must have sum affect chemcial in the boby, which i do not use this method like you beacuse of working/ showing my dogs i do use frontline its quick to apply,

i was told that if something dies of a virus.it leaves the body within 1/2 hour aftre death beacuse of the body temp.so if a pup dies of this herpes virus,on one web site it stated to put the pup in the frige,untill you get it to the vet for a postmort.

Hi Bee, I missed you!
Don't know about the herpes virus, but have used frontilne.
Frontline affects the nervous system of fleas, I doubt that it would affect a dogs reproduction. One of my shelties had it, and whelped 9 puppies. I even think she had it during the cycle, either around the time she was mated, or pregnant early on. I read an article regarding flea remedies and it said that the over the counter ones are the ones to avoid because they use pesticides, whereas frontline doesn't.
Used frontline on one of my cats I didn't know was pregnant and she had 2 normal healthy babies and one scary as heck looking kitten that I still have nightmares about today. Poor thing was alive and absolutely no hope to live outside the mum. Anyway, for some reason frontline is okay for pregnant/breeding dogs, and not at all okay for pregnant cats.
Seems to me that these reabsorptions could have many enviromental factors, like water for one.

Thanks guys . . . you have restored my faith in human curiosity. Yes, Briedog . . . . Program is one of them; actually, I could be wrong but I think it has the same active ingredient as Sentinel for fleas; which works by sterilizing the fleas reproduction system; Program has this, which breaks the flea life cylce by inhibiting egg development.
I have used Sentinel and Program in the past--both during the same time period (I think---1995-1997) Ofcourse, this is just my best recollection of how I think Sentinel & Program work. I stopped using them because, they do nothing to kill or control the exsisting adult flea population or exsisting flea larvae from continuing on to become adult fleas. I prefer Interceptor for heartworm prevention because I get the added benefit of prevention of roundworms & whipworms with Interceptor. And this was also, right during the time I had started using Frontline (1996) for fleas. Because, like you John, my vet told me it was more reliable for conditions such as your hunting dogs getting wet, and that it also was not an 'intsecticide' as with other flea "killing" products. It is my understanding that it is absorbed into the dogs subaceous oil glands and spread throughout the dogs skin via their oil system. Since it (I thought) doesn't get absorbed by the dogs blood system, that it was actually a safer product to use. And of all of the products I originally mentioned, Frontline may be the safest. I know I sure found it was the most "effective"
It's the active ingredient that the flea ingests from the dog's oil system that I haven't really understood. (I thought) it had something to do with the fleas brain chemicals, specifically seratonin, but how that actually kills the flea, I don't understand.

Then came along, Revolution, which I tried, because it was also a non-pesticide and had the added benefit of heartworm prevention. But, here again, for fleas it was not at all as effective as Frontline and I still had the problem on internal worm prevention(roundworms/whipworm & hookworms), which I have found to be controlled more reliably with Intereceptor the heartworm preventative.

So if I wanted to keep using Interceptor, which I definately did, I couldn't use Revolution at the same time.

Therefore, I went to Interceptor and Frontline up until 2000----Then, that year I stopped using Frontline 'regularly'. Like I said in my original post, I haven't seen 'A' flea anywhere on my dogs or premises, so why use anything?
But, I have applied it at the height of flea season to what are my "outside-woods roaming-property patrolling tough guys" which I felt would be at risk of exposure to fleas from the wildlife population out in the woods.

There are also, the flea "growth-inhibitor" sprays with I had also used beginning back during this alsmost same time period of 1995-97 or thereabouts to spray in the cracks of the walls and boards of my outside buildings and decks where the dogs hang out alot. It is my understanding that this product works by interrupting the fleas "life" cycle, which has four stages eggs to larvae to pupae to adult. But the active ingredient in the growth regulators prevent the flea from passing the pupae stage into the adult stage or the larvae into the pupae (one of these stages?) preventing the
development of the fleas outer skeletal system.
Kinda like a butterfly/moth not being able to pass the worm stage of life.

Now, after this whole long explanation of these products, I may be absolutely wrong in how they work. This is merely my understanding of the principles behind the products. So if I am wrong, please someone
point it out.

Thanks.

Thanks for noticing I was gone Bumblebeeacres (I wasn't actually expecting to be missed - - ha ha)

I also heard what you did, about the over the counter spot flea products and I have never used any of them. Although, I think I might have used 'ex-spot' one summer when the ticks were really bad; but it was limited to use only that season and only on my "tough" guys that were exposed from being out in the woods alot.

As far as the Herpes virus; that very well may have been what killed both of my litters of puppies within the first week. Cause, like Briedog pointed out, with a virus it is so difficult to discover if the proper timing and conditions aren't met to preserve the "evidence" for the postmortem. And although I did put the puppies in the fridge until I took them to my vets office. But all 8 puppies (4-in each litter) died at different times. I would just discover one dead with the others in the mornings or some just thoughout the following days at different times. I am sure it was longer than a half-hour before I noticed most of them. None of these puppies showed any signs of sickness, except they just never seemed to grow from the size they were at birth. My best description is, that their growth was interrupted/prevented past birth. ........ Now, someone can call me nuts or crazy. :) :) :)

After reading over my posts, I am actually thinking I may be "nuts" myself. All these different products and really not sure exactly on what principles they work, it is all beyond my expertise.

My main point that I am trying to get at is, how all these products seem to work by means of changing the "reproduction & life"
cycles of fleas.......And how,(if any) these products effects, could possibly have on the reproduction cycle in dogs and interruption of growth in newborn puppies.

My curiosity is not with fleas or which product may or may not work best.

Sorry if I confused anyone (including myself)

Hi bumble and Bee , sorry for missing posts, and for no replies it is just that it is crufts , :D lol marie