Hi All

I am sitting here very confused and need to make a decision very quickly, so any words of wisdom will be very much appreciated.
We would like to breed our second girl but we have encountered two different opinions on this. We spent most of last year looking for the right dog, finally decided on who we wanted to use on our bitch, had all the relevant health checks, contacted the stud dog owner, and all we had to do was take her to the dog when she came into her 3rd season. I assumed as she came into season with our older girl the first two times that she would probably follow the same pattern. How wrong was I? I thought she would be due in season at the beginning of March thus making her two or three days from her second birthday. As it stands she decided that today would be a fabulous day to come into season. I phoned the stud dog owner and asked her opinion, she then contacted someone who is very well known in the breed and serves on the British Club committee for my breed. I was told that yes as she is 21 months and their code of ethics states that this is the minimum age for breeding there will be no problem, especially as she will be two when she is due to whelp. I then contacted the Scottish club where I stay and asked the same question. I was told I would be persecuted as their code of Ethics says bitches should not be bred from until they are two years old. I could wait and take her in July, but I personally don't want to have a heavily pregnant bitch in the summer and puppies due to be rehomed before Christmas. I could also wait until next year when she will be nearly 3 but my OH desperately wants a puppy for showing. As it stands I really have to make a decision as soon as possible because we have to arrange to take her to the dog, which in itself is no mean feat as he lives about 400 miles away. So any input would be gratefully recieved.

Please excuse the long post

Alli

My breed club code of conduct (medium-sized breed) forbids the mating of bitches before their second birthday. Personally I would wait till next season, or even the season after that. JMO

Thanks for that, we don't know which way to go as yet. I'm sure the discussions will get us nowhere :) I am actually really annoyed by this. Why can't all these clubs get together and have one Code of Ethics, it makes decisions like this really difficult. I mean if I lived in England it would be fine to breed from her but here in Scotland I'll be persecuted. They should really get their heads together and sort it out :D

Alli

In my breed smaller than jena Genies but Medium it is whelp before two years of age.  I had thought that the Codes of Ethics for breeds were supposed to be agreed by the rlevant breed councils for the whole breed to avoid such problems?  Ours cover s both our breed clubs.

I did mate my middle girl two weeks prior to her second birthday.  Though her mother and Grandmother were almost 3 and her daughter almost 4.  Hers was by far the easiest whelping I have ever had, though that may be pure coincidence.

Up until about 10 years ago it was our rule that bitches shouldn't whelp before their second birthday, but some people started pushing it a bit fine and mating bitches at 21 months (when they're still very immature), so at an AGM the vote was to change the rule to not mating before 2. I personally think whelping at 3 is ideal, but the 2-year rule can give bitches an extra season before whelping.
:)

Hi Alli
What a dilema.  I would go with your gut intsinct on this one and I think whether you breed your bitch this season or next depends on her mental maturity. If you feel that she is 'grown up' enough to cope with the demands of pregnancy and babies then go for it. Whatever you decided good luck!
Chapelrose.

Me too...its only 6 months
Archer

I would check with the breed club myself, perhaps, rather than take someones word for it, there may have been a missunderstanding but if not I would be inclined to go with their ethics, that being the largest concensus of breeders you will get within your breed.  I don't see that the Scottish club could persecute :) you or prosecute you or anything else if you are following the ethics of the parent club.

I trust the breeders word implicitly on this as the person she phoned is actually on the committee of the British club, so therefor she know all the rules and regulations.

Alli

I think that I would still be inclined to check myself.

Hi Alli, I'm inclined to say leave it 6 or even another 12 months. I have one of your breeds, and my feeling is that both of your breeds would be better left until they were nearer 3 years old. Just my opinion :) The best things are worth waiting for :)

Dawn R.

I'm sure they are trustworthy :) its just when things are passed along a line they sometimes get mixed up, age of mating and age of welping for instance.
I take it you are not a member of the parent club yourself then, are you a member of the Scottish Club?  Many people are members of clubs in Scotland when they live in England and vice versa, I would always join a parent club in preference to anything else myself.
I'm not sure what they mean by persecute it doesn't sound very nice :(

I am a member of the Scottish club, and by persecute they mean that they will not advertise a litter for us, plus it might go against us in showing. The other thing that really riled me and made me angry was the fact that I was told that someone who had been in the breed much longer than us would most likely get away with it. I said to the woman I spoke to in Scotland that they wouldn't advertise a litter for us anyway as we haven't been members for two fully paid up years, I was then told an exception could be made if the stud dog owners were (which they are not). It's beyond me now. I'll have to wait till the OH gets home and have a right good chat to him about it.

Alli

To be truthful, if your girl is either one of the breeds listed in your details I would wait another year.   I would say Irish are a slower maturing breed mentally & Gordon's are a slow maturing breed both physically & mentally.  You only have to see that Gordon's of 7 or 8 yo are still more than capable of winning CC's.

Personally I don't know what the rush is to mate bigger gundog breeds before they are 2 year old, I prefer my dogs to enjoy their youth than thrust them into early motherhood.

Alli,

Without getting into whether or not your bitch is mature enough to have a litter (wouldn't be a problem in my breed), it can sometimes be very entertaining to read the Breed Records Supplement and see how many club/committee members live by what they preach. ;) 

(Not saying this in your breed, or indeed in mine, but did make a point of going through some in another breed I have an interest in once, and it's amazing how some of the morals stretch.)

Probably no help to you, but entertaining for me at the time.

M.

She is your dog at the end of the day and you need to do what you think best. At the end of the day you can take on board advice and then make your own mind up and if others dont like it then so be it. There is a lot of good advice out there and also a lot of 'control freaks'. sometimes difficult to sort them out but it needs to be done. You will never please everyone all of the time. I worry slightly about this waiting until 3 years issue sometimes as if your bitch then misses she is getting on to have a first litter, pelvic joints are less flexible etc and I believe it gets risky for the bitch.
Amos

Hi all

Well I contacted the third club for the breed this morning and was told that they have the same code of ethics as the British club. I also had a very interesting conversation with a lady who has been in the breed for a very long time. We still haven't made a decision as yet, but I'll let everyone know when we do.
Amos you made a very valid point about leaving a bitch until they are older. I have a friend who waited until her bitch was 3 before mating her and she hasn't managed to have a litter from this bitch as she missed three times, every time to a proven stud dog. She and her vet feel that the bitch is too old now at almost 5 to start doing fertility tests.
It is a great shame as the bitch is lovely and could have brought many good things to the breed if she were put to the right dog.

Alli

Hi Alli

I had this same problem when my bitch came into season when I was planning to mate.  Same as you Stud was all booked, and she came into season at 6-8month intervals which would have put her over 2yrs old.  When she came into season she was 22 1/2 months.  Our Breed Code of ethics was tha same not until she is two.  But having had some people said yes mate her others said no you can't, I went and had a check up and chat with my Very Good vet.  And he basically said he would always advise the best season to mate for the first time is the 3rd as long as the bitch herself is ready.   And some other people said that they interpret the ethics as "2 years old or 3rd season".  My bitch was ready for the litter though, and I did mate her, and it did upset a few people but she was fantastic mum and obviously ready for it.

My younger bitch that I have been waiting to mate was no where near ready for a litter that age, and is now 4 and hasn't been ready yet, we don't know if she'll now be mated.

We were not members of any breed club at the time of this mating, and yes we didn't do very well at all in the showring after this mating !! Whatever the reason for that !! Although we mated the same bitch again in 2003 and the pup we kept from this has done brilliantly and gained his JW last weekend at 15 months. And we are now members of our breed club.

Hope this is of some help, I wouldn't consider mating until 3rd season, and then it depends on if the bitch is ready physically and mentally.

Thanks for the reply and well done to your boy on getting his JW. I told the stud dog owner I would let her know by tomorrow at the very latest as it is such a distance away. If it was 20 miles down the road I would think about this for much longer. The conversations I have had this morning have been quite enlightening to say the least and throws a whole new light on the decision.

Alli

I'm sure we could all list cases to validify our points.  I mated my Large Munsterlander bitch at the age of 5 for the first time, she conceived from one mating & whelped 14 puppies with only an Oxytocin injection to help nearer the end of the whelping process.    If a bitch cannot be conceive on 3 or 4 times of mating to separate dogs, I doubt she would have ever been able to conceive even if she'd been younger when mated.

HI ALLI,
GUESS WHO YOU KNOW WHAT I SAID TO YOU, I KNOW YOUR BITCH AND AS SHE IS ON HER THIRD SEASON I THINK IT WOULD BE OK FOR HER, THE REASON WHY PEOPLE MATE OUR BREEDS AT OR AROUND 2YRS IS TO HELP THEM MATURE BODILY AS MOST OF THEM ARE MENTALLY READY AS YOU KNOW, REMEMBER THE CLUBS HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS BUT NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE, AND WHY DO VETS ADVISE OWNERS TO BREED AT THE 3RD SEASON IF THEY DIDNT THINK THE DOGS WERE MATURE ENOUGH, SOMETIMES THERES A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD AS THE KC WILL REGISTER PUPPIES FROM A BITCH FROM OUR BREEDS AS LONG AS THE DAM IS 18MTHS OLD SO IF THE KC SAYS ITS OK THEN WHO ARE WE TO ARGUE BREED CLUBS AND ALL,

Spaying bodies a bitch up....................

Christine I think you are very lucky to have a bitch who produced such a good litter of puppies at that age.  I agree completely that spaying a bitch helps to body them up however, I am sure you are also aware that in coated breeds such as mine, spaying a bitch is not an option if you intend to keep showing her afterwards, as spaying or neutering affects not only coat growth but also texture as well. I went in and had a chat with my vet who knows all my dogs well and he has said that he sees no problem with mating her at the moment as she is fit and healthy and been hipscored and eye tested both with good results.
I spoke to the stud dog owner again today and we have reached our decision. I will be undertaking the journey to have my bitch mated, we have given this decision long hard thought and appreciate everybodies input on this topic.

Alli

HI ALI
I AGREE WITH YOU ALTHOUGH IM SURE A LOT WONT, SPAYING A BITCH INTENDED FOR THE SHOW RING IS A NO NO, EVEN LEAVING 1 OVARY, YES THE COAT STAYS BUT THERE ARE A FEW OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER, IF YOU READ FROM OTHER OWNERS THAT HAVE DONE A (PARTIAL SPAY ) SO TO SPEAK LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE HAD WITH THERE GIRLS, JUST TO ADD ANOTHER POINT DOESNT MOST STUD DOG OWNERS LIKE THEIR DOGS TO BE USED ASAP SOME EVEN AS YOUNG AS 8-10MTHS JUST TO MATURE THEM, NOBODY SHOUTS ABOUT THE BOYS!!!!!!!!

Would in my breed as they need to have been Hip Scored and eye tested, so 14 months is about as young as a amle would be used, and most are a lot older than that.

HI KRISTINE W,
I AGREE WITH ALI SPAYING A BITCH THAT IS INTENDED FOR THE SHOW RING IS A NO NO, EVEN LEAVING ONE OVARY I THINK IT IS
, IF YOU READ OTHER POSTS THAT HAVE DONE THIS THESE OWNERS HAVE HAD VERY BAD RESULTS

WHERE AS THE COAT MAY STAY FOR SHOWING, HAVING A PARTIAL SPAYING SO TO SPEAK HAS VERY SEARIOUS CONSEQUENCES, AND WHY WOULD ALI SPAY HER BITCH IF HER INTENSION WAS TO BREED FROM HER IN THE FIRST PLACE. NO POINT I THINK

Hiya Yanky2

You do hear of dogs being used a young age to "mature" them. In my situation it is a case of you can't please all of the people all of the time. But like I said I have considered all the options and taken advice from people I trust within the breed and made my decision based on this. I'm sure I'll cope with the lack of show results.

Alli

GOOD FOR YOU AND BEST OF LUCK HOPE ALL GOES WELL FOR YOU AND YOUR GIRL, LET ME KNOW HOW THINGS GO ILL KEEP MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR YOU

Thanks very much and I'm sure you'll hear from me before long :D So where are you off to this weekend?

GOING TO CARLISLE, IF YOU FANCY A RUN THRU BE MY GUEST ITS ON SUNDAY BY THE WAY, SENT YOU A PRIVATE E-MAIL LET ME KNOW IF YOU GOT IT

Yeah got your message, I'm working Sunday tho. So no show for me

Hi

Good luck with your decision, and if you want to do the mating and the bitch is ready then go for it.  We did get alot of flack for our mating but I got over it and got a lovely bitch from the litter.  And if faced with the same situation again I would do it again.

Mandi

The only code of ethics that we are guided by is our own. If you are happy with your decision...go with it.

Why worry about what others think?

Snomaes

I don't think it is right to join a club, though, if you are not prepared to comply with their code of ethics. 

I was perfectly prepared to comply with their code of ethics, but after finding out that there has been a committe member who has done the same thing and has "gotten away with it" without any repercussions I have had a change of heart. As it stands the DD that was due to be taken from our account this year hasn't been taken as yet. So a phone call to the bank was placed this afternoon to prevent it from being taken. I am also sending a letter stating that we don't wish to renew our membership as I do agree with what you have said in your above post. But it strikes me that if you have been in the breed for many years it's a case of one rule for them and one rule for us, which to be perfectly honest would have made me rethink my membership had I known what I know now before this.
I just wonder how the club would have stood if my girl was due to be mated two days before her birthday, would the reply I received still be the same?

Alli

Edited to fix my terrible spelling :)

<I don't think it is right to join a club, though, if you are not prepared to comply with their code of ethics. >

Then choose a club with a more enlightened membership!

Mating a bitch on her third season, when she is 21 months of age is hardly damaging to the bitch! We always use the third season mating as a guide, our own' code of ethics'. If the bitch was to come into season at 6 months and have her third season at 18 months, we would adapt our code to the fourth season.

The ethics of breeding dogs should revolve around animal welfare, one bitch may be ready for breeding at 21 months, whilst another may not be psycologically mature enough to breed until she is three years of age. Each case should be looked at individually and a decision made to suit the bitch, not a breed clubs random code of ethics!

Snomaes

I think with most codes of ethics if you have a good reason you can apply to the commitee for dispensation,actually ours says  "The Committee shall request an explanation in writing from any member who fails to abide by the Code of Ethics. The member may be censured for such infringement and the censure published. In cases considered serious enough, action for expulsion shall be taken under the relevant section of the Constitution." but I would think you could raise a situation with them.

Such a close thing with a mature bitch is probably one of those cases.  One has to draw a line somewhere though, and there is very little reason in my opinion to be in a tearing hurry to breed from young bitches, but that a few days or weeks would be understood, especially in breeds with long intervals between seasons.  Trouble with bending or breaking rules is where does it stop.  Even the Kennel Club has come out with a minimum age of 12 months, so what happens with 11 1/2 months.  I don't for a minute beleive they think 12 months an appropriate age for a bitch to ahve a litter in the vast majority of breeds but it would apply to some toys.  That is what the breeds indidvidual codes are for, and they should be across the breed not by club.

My baby has finished her 3rd season just bang on 16 months, and no way is she mature enough for a litter yet, and that is only a breed where bitches ae around 20kg as adults.  Her Grandmother was ready for al;itter when I mated her at 23 1/2 months, even though we have a 2 year of age code, but ours does say whelp so I was still within it's guidelines.

Ali did you check the codes wording exactly as opposed to what people thought it said, as when I had this situatiuon lots of people were sure it said mated before two wheras in fact it says: "All whelpings should be acceptable to the Kennel Club and it is recommended that bitches do not whelp after the age of eight years. Bitches should not be expected to whelp under 2 years of age nor on consecutive seasons. It is further recommended that a bitch's first litter should be whelped prior to the age of 5 years. No bitch should be expected to produce more than four litters."

snomaes, I didn't say whether the clubs ethics were right or not, you are missing my point, what I mean is one should not join a club without first reading their code of ethics and agreeing with them.

Hi there

When we joined the club we were not blessed with psychic abilities that told us when our girl was going to come into season as she was only 5 months old when we joined. We were perfectly aware of the club's code of ethics at the time and agreed with them, if her seasons had turned out as I thought they would this debate would not be taking place and we would have been complying with the clubs ethics.

Alli

It sounds rather as though it's a matter of obeying the rules if it suits you, and ignoring them if you feel like it. Surely I'm wrong?

Exactly, Jeangenie, you either agree to them or not although Alli is doing the decent thing and resigning now.

The  problem we have faced is that due to the lack of a breed council or consensus between all of the breed clubs. As a result there is a lack of clarity on some issues. We were members of the Scottish club and the British club, and after discussions with many people we decided to go with the two bigger clubs and indeed the kennel club (surely the ultimate authority despite people saying it has many shortcomings). What has angered me most is the fact that as I said before about the committee member who has broken the breed club code of ethics and "gotten away" with it. They were never asked to resign or had any repercussions to my knowledge. Surely it would make altogether more sense to have one rule that all the breed clubs adhered to, and this would perhaps help to make this situation and decisions like this a thing of the past. If we had indeed had prior knowledge of when our girl was going to come into season we would not have joined the club, but as we were fairly new to the breed felt it would not only be in our interest but also in our girls interest to join the breed club. As to obeying the rules if it suits you and ignoring them if they don't it certainly seems to be the case for some people in the Scottish breed club. We would never dream of staying with the club and ignoring their rules therefore we felt the correct thing to do was resign.

Alli