Just seen this link! It appears that the geneticists have found the gene for Epilepsy in dogs. In the breeds where it is quite a fair problem this could be great news!

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/06/hscout523275.html

Regards, John

Certainly a step nearer being able to at least limit the condition, John! They say 5 - 10% of dogs have epilepsy - that's a frighteningly high figure.

I don't doubt the truth of that JG. Some years ago the amount of Epileptic dogs belonging to committee members at my club outnumbered sound dogs! Goldens have a big problem, Labradors are not far behind and GSD's possibly lead the way! Shelties and Poodles are also up ther in lights! The list is horrifying.

Regards, John

border collies are bad. i know quite a few personally

Almost all breeds have their problems with Epilepsy although I've seen it stated by no less an expert than Phyllis Croft that inheritance had really only been proved in GSD's Labradors and Goldens. I personally cannot believe that it is not also inherited in most cases in most breeds. We do know that it can be brought on by both illness, poisoning and injury but these are not the type of epilepsy we are talking about here. I once knew a Cocker with hydrocephalus Epilepsy, brought about by running into a wall. This obviously is not inheritable (Unless of course the clumsy gene is! ;) )

Regards, John

all the BCs ive known with it,have had siblings with it too. :(

Good news indeed.
Dawn.

Hi although it is good news in one respect this is only the gene for Lafora disease epilepsy and is not a single gene that covers all idopathic epilepsy, so alot more research is still needed. However it is a step in the right direction.Gillian

That wa s also my first thought S/collie. But like you say, step in the right direction. :) Although I`m begining to wonder now, with all this genetic testing becoming available, what is going to happen in future? Where will breeders stand, will the testing become compulsary, will you be an iresponsable/bad breeder if you don`t have them done? As it says, its only a test for a part of the known cause of epilepsy & there are are more common unidentified, as yet, causes. Just like the test for pra, its not %100 correct. While it`s great they`ve identified part of the gene known to cause it it still feels like I`ve drawn the short stick as a breeder. Call me cynical if you like.......but thats the way I feel right now cos there always seems to be...but we`re working on the final bit 

Christine, Spain.

As a person who has lived with Epilepsy in dogs I welcome any chance to avoid this in the future. My concern is that when DNA testing covers "Everything" that we will find no dog totally clear. That just about every dog will at the least carry something.

Regards, John

Can I just remind everyone who has or knows of a dog suffereing from "Epilepsy" that there is another condition called "CECS"  "Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome" that is often confused with Epilepsy.  The main thing to consider is, Is your dog concious while have these episodes?  If he/she remains responsive and aware, your dog probably doesn't have Epilepsy.  CECS has been around for a while and is only now being researched properly.  Any ifo on it, I can pass on.
DAwn.

hi dawn ive got a bassett hound called humpfry who has just been diagnosed as epileptic but he is aware of his surroundings whilst having a so called fit. He`s been put on epiphen by his vet(who he doesnt like very much), would it be possible for you to send me the infomation about cecs that you`ve mentioned in the dog forum? my own email address is simondsstephen@hotmail.com. thanks for your help.
                                    suzie and humpfry   xxxxxx

Hi Suzie.
Can you describe his symptoms to me briefly, i.e what he does while he is having these turns. Let me kniw what food he gets too.You can mail it to me on dawnbladen@hotmail.com  and yes of course I can lend you the CD's.  Give me your address in the e-mail too and I will get them off to you.
Dawn.

A question for you Suzi. Does Epiphen work in preventing the fits? This is one of the clinchers for CECS, that Epilepsy drugs dont work in that case.

Regards, John

We have a 6 year old GSD who developed epilepsy at the age of 2.She is on the max dose of medication twice a day. She still has "episodes" where she has a cluster of fits,ending up as an emergency at the vets,usually in the early hours. This is a most distressing illness and i do hope they can find something which may identify the gene. My daughter lost her 12 year old poodle 3 months ago .She started having fits out of the blue and over the space of one night ended up fitting almost continuously,resulting in brain damage and having her pts.She has been researching all the various breeds to find out which have a tendency to epilepsy,as she says she could not go through anything like that again.Can anyone tell me if Cavalier King Charles spaniels have any significant history of Epilepsy? She really wants a Cavalier puppy,and she knows the health checks etc that they need to have,but her little poodle Zoe,and our lovely girl Shelley ,both had excellent pedigrees,but it seems to be common in those 2 breeds,and we wondered if the Cavaliers were prone to it too.
Jean

Not sure how commmon it is in the breed, but we have boarded Epileptic Cavaliers.  I think their main problem is Heart failure.
Dawn.

Jean,

A 12 year old dog that suddenly starts having seizures most likely does not have epilepsy.  When a dog is diagnosed with epilepsy it generally means there is no underlying cause.  In a 12 year old dog that begins having seizures the most probably causes are cancer or organ failure.  

I know how shattered your sister feels.  The love of my life, Moxie, a Yorkie, suddenly started having seizures when she was nearly 13 years old.  They got worse and worse over a period of two weeks and we had her PTS after days of nearly continual seizures, despite being on meds to control them.  It was one of the worst experiences of my life.  This was over two years ago now and I still worry about the two dogs I have now, afraid they will develop epilepsy.  

FYI, Moxie had a sonogram and blood tests, her liver was covered with nodes, a small cancer was found in her bladder, and the specialist neurolgist suspect there might be some involvement of cancer in the brain.  

Stacey

Stacy. The vet did seem to think that Zoe had a brain tumour because of the sudden onset and severity of the fits.She didnt know my daughter,she was blind and was coming out of one seizure and going in to another. It was a terrible 36 hours and my daughter was relieved at the end that she wasn't suffering any more.As far as Shelley is concerned,she has full blown epilepsy which is idiopathic,and even with the medication,she still has these "episodes".It really is a horrible illness,and I think the owner suffers more than the dog,although if you had seen Zoe and see Shelley both during and after the fits,I think I would have to disagree that they don't suffer.
Jean

Breeders have been altering the DNA of dogs for centuries now. Just think, in the future,  genetisists could breed the perfect showdogs witout trial and error and free from heriditary illnesses like epilepsy!!!!

Breeders cannot change DNA Danlo, they can only work with the DNA which is already there. The DNA for the dog was laid down at the dawn of time when dogs evolved. The only changes which have occurred since is when genes mutate. This is where hereditary diseases come into play.

Over the years, survival of the fittest has meant that the animals best fitted to survive have carried through whilst other have failed. The tiger who is a poor hunter would not last long and his genes would die with him. Likewise, tigers best fitted to survive have gone from strength to strength (At least, until humans interfered with it's habitat.) When it comes to dogs, humans have selected the best at their job and used these for a particular purpose. Labradors make good retrievers so breeders mate the best with the best to try to enhance the characteristic. They have changed nothing, just used the best of what's there.

Again, geneticists cannot breed the perfect dog. They can only tell you what mutated genes your dog carries. What will be possible, some time in the future, will be for you to find out what hereditary diseases your dog carries and to allow you to choose a stud dog which does not carry these genes. In time, if the will is there, it would be possible to breed out hereditary ailments, (Although there is nothing to say that another set of genes won't mutate and we will have to start all over again!)

There are so many hereditary diseases. Just look at eyes! For years I have argued with my sister about colours! She does not see them the same as me. Who is right? Many many years ago someone must have looked at something and said, "I'll call that red!" Red does not have red wrote on it, it's a man made word describing a particular colour. Are non colour blind people right, or were the so called colour blind people right all the way along? Without saying anything against eye testing, but there are items on the list for no reason other than "They are not right!" PPM as an example. With PPM no dog is going to go blind and almost every dog "Suffering from PPM" will be clear by a year old. (The vet collage's own statement!) Just maybe, when the time comes that we find we have no dogs clear of every single thing then the important things, the things which are painful and lead to total blindness such as Glaucoma should take priority over such things as PPM?? just a thought for you.

Regards, John

John

Is there anyway you can give details of the condition in the differing levels of severity detailing the type of symptoms ?

Thanks
Lucyxx

Hi Lucy.
As you know, I'm not a vet so can only talk in layman's terms about what I've seen and read.

The first thing to remember about Epileptic is that we are all, to a greater or lesser extent epileptic. It is just than in the normal course of events neither us or other animals for that matter, reach the threshold where we are ever likely to fit.

Talking of Epilepsy in dogs, it runs the full gamut from being so brief that it is hardly recognisable as a fit to a full out and out fit with the muscle contractions and involuntary urination and defecation. Fits almost always happen when the dog is relaxed, often when sleeping, which means that a kennel dog could be epileptic without the owner ever knowing! A friend's GSD only ever fitted at night and it was only when the dog just happened to be laying with it's foot close to her bedroom door that she found out!

Talking Beth for a moment, I got to recognise the symptoms with her. She would be just a little less confident around other dogs for up to two or three days before. She was bomb proof around other dogs but at that time you could see her putting me between her and dogs she didn't know as if she realised that she was not in quite the same position to defend herself if needed. When the fit was approaching she very obviously knew because she would always try to find me and would rub up against me trying to initiate touch. It always seemed to be her front end which went first and she would lift a leg, rigid, and slowly collapse over that way. Unconsciousness normally only lasts for seconds although most people will tell you that it is several minutes at least! In actual fact, the shaking does not start until the dog starts to regain consciousness but at this stage you would never know! Beth's eyes would be locked tight closed and to all intents she would APPEAR unconscious. The giveaway was that she knew we were there and as long as we were touching her she could relax (As far as a dog with the full muscle spasm could be said to be relaxed.) If we left her even for just seconds she would start to panic and try to stand. I was lucky in that she never lost control of her motions. When the spasms finally finished, in her case anything up to 30 minutes, and she stood up she would be very hyperactive. She would rush around and because she was still a bit disorientated would crash into furniture. For that reason I always shepherded her outside and walked her up and down. I found it necessary to watch her very carefully at this time because she almost always had a second fit within a few minutes of the first. (In her case never a third!)

That was Beth. A friend's GSD always lost control of her functions and was always in such a panic that it was better not to touch her. Not all dogs go through the hyperactive stage after a turn, but almost all the dogs I've known have, just as almost all the epileptic dogs I've known have been bordering on hyperactive in their everyday state!

That is what I've seen. What's below is what I have read on the subject, mostly from Phyllis Croft, booklet,
"The Management of Epilepsy in Dogs."

She starts by saying that Epilepsy can conveniently be divided into those deriving WHOLLY from the pathology of the brain or nervous system, and those stemming from some other organ.

Primary Epilepsy normally starts at between 1 and 3 years of age. (Around 18 months seems about average to me) and if it occurs much later then the cause is usually either illness, injury or poisoning. Internal Hydrocephalus (Usually before 1 year old), Meningitis, Encephalitis.

Poisoning often used to be from lead paint (Not often found these days, Strychnine, or more often, Warfarin. Tumour, often on the brain can bring it on, as can heart problems. Very simply, it the dog is already close to the threshold a small extra stress can take them over the edge, where with a dog further from the threshold would be treated for the problem, be it poisoning or whatever without ever developing Epilepsy.

You have my Email addy Lucy, if you want to get in touch don't hesitate.

Best wishes, John

Thanks John

Have mailed you !

Lucy
xx

Hi Lucy.
Just going out for a while but I'll email you when I get home.

Very best wishes, John