my staffy girl is now 2 and a half.she is a dearly loved member of our family .sleeps on our bed ect.she will be coming into season soon ,and i cant decide whether or not to breed her.if anything happened to her i would be devastated. she is lonely i think and gets over excited if she sees any dogs ect.she has no friends as we live in the middle of nowhere.
i had a staffy who died 4 years ago to cancer ,we didnt breed her.  we purchased her sister for our niece. so she always had someone to play with.we did regret at times her not having alitter.
anyway i dont know whether to breed her for 1 litter only and keep a pup.( i would have homes for 2 more pups as the vet would love one as she adores her.also niece would like one as her staffy died after 14 years.)
or do i buy another staffy and hope they get on.?
i think a dog is for life so i would have to keep the new puppy as i just couldnt pass it on if it wasnt suitable.
anybody out there that can advise as i would have to start looking for a breeder if i decide to mate her .but i may back out at the last minute as i am soooooooooo worried about her.i know its a natural occurance for dogs to pup but i need help in deciding .i would have her checked regularly by our vet.( vet lovely )
sorry for rambling on ....

But what about the possible other 8 puppies she could have? Could you run those on till suitable people wanted them - at maybe 6 months of age? Because you wouldn't want to sell them to just anyone; new owners need careful vetting, and is one of the most difficult and worrying parts of breeding a litter.

Apart from that, is your bitch KC registered, and has she been cleared of hereditary conditions? That requires specialist checks, not just a 'once-over' by your vet.
:)

she is pure bred but not ikc reg . she had all the health checks when she was a puppy about 12 weeks old . i could look after puppies until suitable people turned up . i have a large house i am surrounded by forests the only cars that come here are the postman and me and my husbands.so they could have freedom to play ect.so time wouldnt be a worry. also they would be loved and cared for untill they leave .i know selling them would invite unsuitable people but i wouldnt be shy in telling anyone unsuitable to get lost.if i thought someone was suitable i wouldnt mind giving them a puppy free of charge as their happiness comes before money.but obviously i wouldnt advertise this fact as i would have every idiot at my door.
so please dont try to critisize me on my question .i would like sincere replies and advice i have thought about this for a long time and only want what is best for my girl as she is genuinely lonely and would love a playmate and companion.i can only give her so many cuddles ect i cant take the place of a propper dog companion who i know she would love to have .........so folks do i buy or breed.....

Buy :)

Daisy

There is only one answer in my opinion.

If your bitch has no KC registration then breeding from her will produce puppies also without KC registration, and these are just the sort of puppies that could at some point in their lifetime end up with the wrong type of person.

Therefore I would buy yourself a companion to her, it would save you the worry of putting her at risk, it would save you the problem of finding suitable people to buy your unregistered puppies and provide her with the companionship of a new puppy (again possibly unregistered so you would be giving that one a good home) as soon as you want, instead of waiting until she is in season and then another 9 weeks for her to produce her litter.

If she is not KC registered or Irish Kennel Club registered if you are in Ireland then you should not breed form her if she hasn't papers as you have no way of researching her background.

To breed you need to want to involve yourself in a lot of pedigree research to find out what her ancestors were like in looks temperament and health, as many of these traits will be recessive, maning that your bitch even if she doesn't show them can pass them on to her pups.  These may be good traits and not so good, and a skilled breeder will be trying to put together two animals that will be most likely to produce the good and try to avoid the bad.  Obviously such knowledge cannot be gained in five minutes so most new breeders who care about a breed and their bitch and prospective pups will work with a breeder who has this knowledge.  this will often be the bitches own breeder, that of her sire, or even the chosen sires owner.

The health checks we refer to are not ones done as a pup by your GP vet they would be tests like Hip Scoring (x-rays taken by your vet but sent of the the British Veterinary Expert panel for assesment) and eye testing by one of th3e specialist panel of opthalmologists.  Hip Scoring can set you back around £150 and Eye Testing depends on whetyher you can get to an organised session by a dog club, or have to go to where the specialist vet practices.

After the pups go to their new homes your involvemetn with them will have to continue until they die, so it all depends if you will want to be that deeply involved for that length of time.  You mqay be3 asked to take back one of the pups at any time from birth to old age, which can be very inconvienient and worrying.

I love breeding to see how my next litter will turn out, and getting involved with the new owners and their families, making a big extended family, but I worry constantly for the first year or more how the pups are being brought up, and have had to take back adults who have been badly brought up to rehabilitate and rehome, which is very costly in time and effort.

You say you are very isolated, this will mean having to make a great effort to ensure puppies are properly socialised with as many diffeerent people and situations as possible before leaving for new homes at around 8 weeks,a dn any that stay longer will need trips to shops, roads schools etc tyoe endsure they are fit to live as well adjusted companions.

I would join your most local Breed club and attend some events.  You will th4en be able to arrange for some breeders to have a look at your gilr to give a dispassionate opinon on her suitablility to be bred from, and be able to give advice as to which stud dogs would be compatible.

Hi Shelly, bitches do not NEED to have a litter for their health or wellbeing. In fact breeding from any bitch puts her life in danger, so the reasons for wanting to breed a litter from your pet should be very good indeed.

First of all, did you buy your bitch from a reputable breeder, someone who said they would always be on the end of the phone in case of problems or questions. If so, then they are the best people to provide advice on this subject.

How do you know that she is a good enough specimen of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, to warrant breeding from. I don't doubt that you think she's the most wonderful dog that ever walked, and so you should, but only the best specimens, those conforming closely to the KC breed standard, should be bred from. So you need an impartial assessment done.

Is she Kennel Club registered?

If not then she should not be bred from. Without KC reg you would not be able to have all her reccomended health tests done. I'm not talking about vet checks here. There are certain official tests that should be done to prove that she, and the chosen stud dog would not pass on any health problems.

You will find that you need at least £1000 in spare cash to breed a litter before the puppies are born and a further £400-£500 in contingency for a possible Caesarian section.

So if all you want is another Stafford, then the easiest thing to do is to buy one, from health tested parents, from a reputable breeder who KC registers all puppies.

Hope I've been some help, or at least provided some food for thought.

Dawn R.

As usual JG you and I typing at the same time, and me using 1000 words when 50 will do.

Dawn R.:)

Do you also have the time to spare as well?  Newborn pups need constant attention and then comes the time consuming feeding, cleaning, socialising, vetting prospective owners...  The demands are huge, not just financially, but on your time as well-if you work, could you afford to take that much time off?  I would say the most sensible thing would be to buy another dog rather than ultimately risking your bitches life for a mating that essentially, doesn't need to take place.

health checks no problem .money for operations no problem. her health and wellbeing important..but would she bond better with her own puppy better than a bought one .from what i have read on the forum the answer is yes thats why i was considering breeding.

Not necessarily, a mother and daughter particularly when the daughter starts to mature and has her first season, can very wll take a dislike to each other.

If your bitch is of a sound enough temperament, then there should be no reason that she wouldn't bond just as well with a new puppy as one of her own. Mind she could just as easily not take kindly to having another bitch in the house (daughter or not) it might be better to consider a buying a dog puppy.

how would she get on with a neutered dog  ( she would be spayed ) would this be better than a female ( both would be spayed ) didnt really want a male as they tend to wander too much and i wouldnt want the worry of that.i know of neutred dogs that still wander.

not all unneutered dogs wander, that is down to the owners training in the first instance.

But she would be fine with a neutered dog if that is what you would prefer to do.

i live in the irish republic in the country people her dont put much importance on ikc reg.i bought her off a lady who moved here from england. both dogs were ikc reg.

Another good reason for not breeding her is the fact that she has suffered from demodetic mange in the past, the chances are that she still carries this mite under her skin and may well pass it on to any puppies she has, or indeed start suffering from it again in times of stress (i.e. when carrying or whelping puppies)

The fact that people don't put much importance to the papers shows that they so not understand why it is important.  Puppies produced in a haphazard manner without the background and health knowledge is like playing russian roulette with what you will get, and is not very ethical as we are talking living creatures here, not even livestock that is destined for the table but dogs that are hopefully going to make healthy good natured companions.  It is therefore important that the best possible job is made of producing these pups as close to standard and with the best possible health that the breeder can.

If both parents were IKc registered it may be that y9ur or her breeder will be able to apply for registration for your girl,but before I would bother with that I would have a knowledgeable breed expert assess her for you :D

both her parents were ikc reg .brought over here by their owners to live.over here in the irish republic in the country. people arnt as bothered about ikc reg as they are in england and possibly dublin.papers have no relavance to me as i wanted a pet. not a show dog as long as she had 2 pure bred healthy parents . and the puppy had all the necessary health checks.   thats enough for me.i know you are all real dog lovers so am i .

i cant imagine you would have a problem introducing a new pup, unless your bitch is very nast with other dogs, but even then most adult dogs will accept a tiny pup, go for a boy. xx

im sure she will bond with her own pup better, but you have got to weigh up the pros and cons and if your worried about her then id say buy a pup.

thanks sarstaff your oppinion is appreciated
shelly

".papers have no relavance to me as i wanted a pet. not a show dog as long as she had 2 pure bred healthy parents.papers have no relavance to me as i wanted a pet. not a show dog as long as she had 2 pure bred healthy parents"

but those healthy parents produced a puppy that you bought which had demodetic mange!!!

surely that will explain to you why brainless and myself are saying that knowing the history of a bitch is very important before you consider breeding from her.

lady dazzle, i was always under the impression that any pup could get demodetic mange, it was just stress related or the dog had a immature immune system, from what ive read and talked about with my vet a bitch who has had  a lone case of localised mange would be as safe as any bitch to breed from? if it was your show bitch and you wanted a litter what would you do( asking for myself?)  i understand that you were saying to the op that this was just one more problem. xx

Whilst all dogs have the mite, it is believed that the tendency to not be able to deal with it is hereditary.  I wouldn't breed from a bitch that had demodectic mange, regardless of her quality.  It's another 'bad point' that I wouldn't want to reproduce.
http://www.italiangreyhound.org/demodex.html
http://www.barkbytes.com/medical/med0019.htm
Is  anyone else finding the board slow tonight?  I can't get back to edit my posts in time!!

To be honest Sarstaff even if it was top show bitch I would have to think long and hard about it.

It is very common in a number of breeds, which to my mind is one more reason not to breed from a sufferer and perpetuate the problem in a breed.

You are correct in saying it is connected with an immature or deficient immune system, which is one of the things I would consider to be hereditary.

Yes any pup can get demodetic, but it may well be that it has been bred down from an ancestry prone to it.

I'm sorry but I must say that the dog problem in Ireland is out of control. Dog rescues are full to bursting and are putting dogs to sleep every day because homes cannot be found. One person on this board regularly pays to bring dogs over to England to save them from being put down. Please stop and think before making the situation even worse. It could be your puppies which end up in rescue and being put down.

People must take responsibility for their actions.

Regards, John

yes .but its just as bad in england.dogs regardless of pedigree are dumped on a daily basis. we find the worst offenders are gun dog owners over here .they take them out shooting a few times if they dont perform to standard they are shot or dumped.these people pay good prices for good pedigree dogs.
i live in a shooting area .we have pheasants .deer .ducks ect.
on numerous occasions we have found dumped dogs etc..
john do you breed if so
where are your puppies now   ?????????????????????????????????

The situation is not good in England but no where near as bad as in Ireland. You are not taking our dogs but we are taking yours! That is fact. We also do not shoot our dogs!

Where are my puppies? Still inside my bitch. I will not breed until everything is right however much I might want to. My bitch is a proven worker, has a hip score of 2/2 and a clear eye certificate dated 12/10/2004 but because I was working full time I did not think it right to breed at this time. Even though I would have liked a puppy from her and had two gamekeepers and 3 field trials people wanting a puppy.

If there are too many puppies being born bringing more into the world is irrisponsible.

Regards, John

The situation in ireland is bad we take some dogs most months from there .
the last ones we took were in danger of being shot and they were such gorgeous dogs the owner Having a marriage break  up tried to get vet to PTS but when vet said no they asked farmer to shoot them !!!! luckily those dogs came to us and are now in wonderful loving homes
Far too many dogs are bred if you want a puppy like as been suggested and good advice buy another from the breeder

Just curious Shelly, what do you do with the "dumped dogs" you find? Do you hand them into a pound or would you consider keeping one of them as company for your girl?

hi polly ,

i have personally found good homes for some of the dogs i have found , and others i have had to contact the local rspca and have housed the dogs at my house untill they have found a home for them.

None of the dogs we have found have been the breed size or type of dog i would personally like to own.

And i would be careful of the temperment of any dog i owned with having a young child.this is why i would prefer a staffy.

One gun dog my husband found had been shot , and had to be put down when my husband took it to the vet, We dont know if it was gun shy and that is why it was shot, or the man who shot it was just a bad shot.But it was one of the worst acts of cruelty i have ever seen. even my husband was near to tears.

Shelly, have a read of [link http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=412349;hlm=and;hl=rescue%20ireland#412349]this recent thread[/link]. This is fact.

Nobody at all has attacked you as being responsible for the situation in the whole of Ireland, but the fact remains that is where many farmed puppies that end up in the UK originate, shipped over in vanloads to Stranraer. Nobody who loves dogs wants to add to the numbers of carelessly bred pups.
:)

My and most other show dogs are Petts first and foremost.  I attnded 21 shows last year, so those and the other 344 days of the year they were purely pets.  A pet ownere should be entitled to have a quality well bred healthy pet, so it's breeder should try as hared as possilbe to ensure this, anything else is selling them the pups and the breed short.

I would contact the Staffordhire Bull Terrier Club of Ireland for a list of reputable breeders.  Buy a well bred pup from one of them, or coantact them for advice about your girls suitability to be bred from, and how to get her registered (if it is like in England the breeder will have to do it).  Youy will need to contact ther breeder anyway to find out more about her parents, what their current health is like, for photos of them so you can see what they look like and preferably you should arrange to see them again so you can assess their temperament, as they will influence the pups she might have.

BUY!
1/your bitch will not nessecarily get on with a son/daughter when it matures
2/it is a risk to breed...your bitch CAN die
3/Are you financially secure enough to pay for a caeser if needed.Litters can costs thousands
4/your bitch is not registered and hence you cannot find her a suitable mate without knowing her pedigree properly
5/checks done by a vet at 12 weeks are not 'health tests' that are required for breeding.
6/having a litter will not prevent health issues
I'm not criticising you...you obviously care for your pet and so are asking
Archer

thanks for your help lady dazzle and val!! xx

You're welcome, sarstaff.:)  So you can understand why we are saying that this reason alone makes mating a bitch who has had Demodectic Mange not a viable choice.  That is before you take into consideration that the bitch is unregistered.
The best choice would definitely be to buy a puppy, Shelly.

Thank you lady dazzle for the research of my previous posts.

But you have not got all the facts. When i posted saying my dog had a prob with mange,
I am a pet owner not a dog breeder, and at the time i thought it was mange ,
But after consulting a vet , i was told it was irratation cased by ear mites. which was causing my dog to scratch resuslting in fur loss and soreness .
which was diagnosed and treated succesfully.

but i did not feel the need to start a post of my own telling you about ear mites as at the time i was only replying to another post.
I understand you are a big experienced breeder of border terriers , and you seem to care about dogs, your daughter does chipping etc.
And john seems to have a problem with anyone breeding dogs Quote (If there are too many puppies being born bringing more into the world is irrisponsible.)
Ladydazzle was saying in a previous post that the breeding on border terriers is now so high that she is worried (puppy farms) are being set up to fill the demmand.
So john what is your advice to ladydazzle ? Stop breeding them now becouse its irrisponsible !
people come on this forum for a bit of help and advice and light conversation,
Ive noticed in the past that some (not all) tend to gang up on poeple and put them down.
This will result in people actually being afraid to post for help !
Which is the excact opposite of what this forum is supposed to be about.
So if you have nothing  positive to add Please Dont Post...

For your information, though goodness knows why I am bothering!!!!

Every time I breed it is to:

a) improve on the quality of the dogs I already have.

b) when I need to continue a line

I have a long waiting list for puppies, some people having to wait up to a year to get one from me.  The last time I advertised any pups for sale was over 12 years ago.

I do not breed from substandard animals everything I breed conforms to the breed standard in type and temperament, and has been shown in the ring with success.

As regards researching your posts, you stated on here that your bitch had demodetic mange.  I can only go by what you yourself said, and I was advising you that it was not a sensible course of action to perpetuate that problem. You said: shelly 25.09.04 16:44 GMT  [Misc] [Reply]  

hi
my staffy pup also had this problem .she had terrible itchy bald patches.
in ireland ivormectin is for sheep but is suitable for mange in all but sheep dogs.i used it on a lab and he was fine.it has to be measured correctly.
for the staffy i used a small tube which you put on the back of the neck like frontline.but it was more expensive version.this was brilliant but only lasted about a month then it came back .
this carried on for about 4 months then i think she just grew out of it and i havent had anymore problems since.she is now 2 1/2. 

-----

So far as I can see no mention was made of ear mites, and as the post was made when the bitch was 2 1/2 and she had mange as a puppy.  I would have thought that you would have known it was earmites before you posted that it was demodetic mange.
           

Now we have that problem out of the way.

Speaking personally I have ganged up with no-one, everything I said was my own personal opinion to the question you originally asked., and I still stick by that opinion whether it is what you want to hear or whether it is not.  If you ask a question on an open forum, then you have to be ready for answers you may not like or which do not fit in with what you want to do.

Can I ask why you bothered to ask your original question, if you have every intention of poo pooing what advice people had to give you!!!!!!!!!!!

Because people are only happy if they receive replies that are what they want to hear, Lady Dazzle.  You've been asked not to post if you can't post anything positive!!

Ooops Val thats where I went wrong was it!! :-D :-D

You started very well Val , and i did appreciate your first posts,

But if you think Typing things like (Because people are only happy if they receive replies that are what they want to hear, Lady Dazzle. )

Is of No help and just inflammatory and is  sarcastic to say the least.

There is no preference to buying or breeding at the min , and just wanted some help in tipping the scales in one direction or the other in helping me decide what to do.

So your comment is unjust ...

I'm not trying to please you Shelly, I'm doing my best to reply to your posts honestly.
I would be grateful if you would explain about your bitch's mange/ear mites.

people havent replied to my questions. only a few gave proper advice eg sarstaff.
does anyone know what my original question was ?
well it was ( in simple terms ) would it be better to breed and keep a puppy for companionship or buy one . and which would my bitch take to more.
constructive oppinions welcome .
sorry but your poo poo ideas are not welcome.i am an adult wanting advice from likewise i am not back in school .
i do not appreciate lectures by certain individuals.
so please i will say again please dont post if you are feeling in an argumentive or confrontational mood.
as i cant be bothered.

but any constructive advice welcome
thanks to all who are trying to help me decide
shelly

No question Shelly.  Buy in a puppy.  Your bitch is no less likely to get on with a pup bought in than her own.  Some bitches hate their own pups as they grow.

I don't know which you consider my posts were, but I would say if you can get your bitch registered health tested and found to be a good example of the breed by breed expersts, and are then prepared for the lifelong responsibility for the pups and the breed that breeding a litter entails, then go ahead and breed, but otherwise buy one in.

If you think that you really would like to take your interest in the breed further and yoru bitch is not a suitable foundation, then do as I sugested and make sure you get one from the best possible source from an expereinced and successful breeder with Hip Scored and eye tested parents who has the breeds welfare at heart and learn from them, and in the fullness of time breed from your new bitch.

Shelly, I wish you good luck whatever you decide. My girlie is so lovely, and I love her to bits, I would have liked her to have puppies to keep a couple. But from the age of ten months I found out she had so many health problems, breeding with her was out of the question anyway. But then thinking about it, I would have worried myself sick whilst she was carrying the pups in case anything went wrong and the worst happened to her. Then no matter how many pups she'd have had, to find the right homes for them to go to would have been another worry,if I could have ever found the "right" home anyway. A friend of mine who breeds only occaisionally has told me of all the worrying times she has had and I don't think I could personally take the risk, but at the end of the day it is your descision. I would say though leave it to the experts, especially if you tend to be a worrier like me, and buy a puppy or find a rescue dog. Sue x

Shelly you only posted this in September when your bitch was 2+1/2 - she had mange as a puppy!  Are you now saying that you've consulted your Vet since September and he has diagnosed that you bitch didn't have mange 2 years previously?  Or are you saying that your bitch has had irritation again since September, for which your Vet has now diagnosed ear mites?  I'm sorry but I am trying to understand.

shelly 25.09.04 16:44 GMT  [Misc] [Reply]  
hi
my staffy pup also had this problem .she had terrible itchy bald patches.
in ireland ivormectin is for sheep but is suitable for mange in all but sheep dogs.i used it on a lab and he was fine.it has to be measured correctly.
for the staffy i used a small tube which you put on the back of the neck like frontline.but it was more expensive version.this was brilliant but only lasted about a month then it came back .
this carried on for about 4 months then i think she just grew out of it and i havent had anymore problems since.she is now 2 1/2. 

This is a public forum - an information exchange - and if you post here you will receive a wide variety of replies, exchanging experiences.  Some you will like and some you will not.  But I will say that I haven't found a forum with more knowledgable and experienced people in the world of dogs, so my advice would be, sincerely, to consider seriously the advice that you've been given.

I'd buy, purely and simply because of the risks, however slim, of loosing my pet, and the risks of not finding the pups suitable homes. It was the same question when breeding my rats, should I or shouldn't I, in the end I just brought new kittens/adults, as much as I love the agouti colour i'm sure people would much rather a flashy Russian Blue or Burmese.

So buy a pup, so long as you get the mix right and your bitch has the right temperment it should go fine.

Thanks Rhiannon

thanks for your advice

I have no problem with RESPONSIBLE breeders Shelly. Without them we would have no dogs. What I do have a problem with is irrisponsible breeding. To breed dogs just for the local rescue to put down is not the way to go. Have a dog from your losal rescue and save it being destroyed.

Regards, John

Hi Shelly,

Pregnancy is very hard on bitches and if I what I was looking for was only a companion for my dog I would not breed.  If you have been on this Board for a while you may occassionally notice pleas by someone who has just lost a bitch that whelped and is looking for a wet nurse for the puppies.  Not to mention all the problems that can happen with puppies themselves.

It is absolutely true that mums bond better with their own pups.  It's certainly a real problem when they do not, obviously.  However, it is not true that that bond will last into adulthood.  There is no guarantee that when the pup is fully grown (if not before) it will challenge its mum for position.  Usually this is resolved happily between dogs, but sometimes it is impossible and one dog must be rehomed. 

If your bitch gets along well with other dogs you should not have a problem introducing either a puppy or an adult as a companion.

Stacey