I am thinking about getting a farm bred border collie, i want a active dog to train then go on to do agility or flyball or maybe even both. But i have been told today that border collies that are farm bred are very hard to train our previous border collie was a rescue dog and she was really obedient and intelligent. Any pros and cons on having a farm bred collie would be great also which sex would make a better agility/flyball dog as they have 2 of each.

One of the possible problems is that very few farm bred collies are deliberately bred. Most farms who have a working collie want it to work so deliberately breeding from it takes it out of the field and leaves them without a working dog for a while. If they need another dog it is better for them to go out and buy one from someone who specifically breeds working collies. So from that you can see that the average farm bred collie is purely an accident and often the exact sire of the puppies is unknown. Possibly a better approach would be to look for a puppy from lines proven good at Agility or Flyball. 

As to dog or bitch? This is more a personal thing than a matter of ability. The only real difference is that a bitch is going to come into season, possibly twice a year and at that time would be out of the ring. Some also go through a "Broody" period after a season which can prolong the length by anything up to another 60 days!

Regards, John

Hi guest

The farm bred collies I know have been very good at agility, but are much more difficult to live with, especially because they have such a strong eye and like to herd everything up.

I would say get one from an agility line. Many of them do do the correct health checks. Lines to look for which have done well in agility are www.touchango.co.uk
www.merledaze.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
www.karrider.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
comebyanaway@hotmail.com (email address), may have/know something available
http://canenk9s.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/bryningbordercollies

All produced successful agility or obedience dogs.

Charlotte

totally disagree john!!!!

the isds would disagree strongly id imagine!!!!

I said the average farm bred dog Michelled. I happen to know that ISDS dogs are tested. I also know the average farm dog is not registered with the ISDS.

Regards, John

Farm bred collies can be harder to live with rather then hard to train. I think the hard to train advice might mean hard as in not so sensitive, which I would agree with. They usually have a very strong eye and herding instinct as this is what they have been bred for.  I would certainly not recommend going down that route unless you are experienced in the field you wish to train for.

I would also check whether these pups parents have been hip scored and eye tested.  Are the pups being eye or hearing tested.  I somehow doubt it and would never buy a Border Collie without these tests, especially if you intend to do active sports.

If you go for a showbred Border Collie who is recommended by the BC clubs you will have a pup who has had all the relevant tests, still work in obedience, agility or whatever you want, but hopefully the strong herding instinct has been diluted to make the dog easier to live with.

You can try ringing the secretary of the BC club for a list of breeders, his number is listed on the website www.thebordercollieclub.com be prepared for a wait though, I hear there are not too many pups around at the moment.

As for the sex, it can only be personal choice.  You can't say one would make a better agility/flyball dog.

Hope this helps
Sandra

My next BC will be like all my previous ones will be ISDS bred to work

I would not have a show/obedience KC reg  bred one. The show people have brought CL in to the UK in at least two of their foreign dogs, CEA producers continue to have litters registered even after three or four from different bitches(a CEA carrier was even made up & used at stud). Yes some do all the tests & work very hard on producing a watered down version of a working dog. The obedience dogs are too hyped up for me & agility dogs well they are now wanting mini BC's under 17 inches tall

Give me the triallist who breeds after checking CEA cases produced & the lines of the dogs(some x ray & eye screening isn't the sole preserve of the show breeders) 

Having had both my late BC's were bitten by "show"BC's at shows & seen the BOB at Crufts one year back off the dog judge only to be awarded BOB by the Group judge who never handled her, I have great concerns over the so called better temperamented show type)

I have never had any problem training my ISDS dogs to do sheep/breed/obedience/agility, but I do see lots of badly behaved "pet"show bred dogs for retraining

Unfortunately 'farm bred' covers a lot of things.  The farm bred collies I've seen (I live in South Wales) have been very nervy and unpredictable :( since farmers often think that pups = stock then they don't keep them indoors but in one of the outhouses, warm, dry and quiet :rolleyes: unfortunately on a busy farm often the only contact the pups get with humans is when they are fed.  This doesnt give the pups the best start, since a puppy needs to experience lots of different noises, sights and smells, people animals etc.  Add to this the strong instincts of the farm bred collie and its not surprising that many of these dogs have problems living as pets, although they seem to do well as working farm dogs..

There are collies being bred for agility/obedience and perhaps this would be the best place to look for a new pup :)

& if you get a new "mini"BC bred for agility you will be the envy of lots of people who are more interested in size than breeding

>There are collies being bred for agility/obedience and perhaps this would be the best place to look for a new pup

Unfortunately, you need to be very careful with the agility/obedience lines, there are not many 'breeders' that health check their bitches let alone make sure the stud is tested.   I pat those on the back that do and there are a few, but they do not breed many litters and are usually sold before the public get to hear about them.

People working obedience and agility do not often breed as they would rather have their dogs neutured, otherwise they miss so many shows and training sessions with bitches in season or the dog easily distracted.

If I was looking to do agility and flyball I would want to know I had done my best to hopefully have a dog with good hips and eyes.

I thoroughly agree with you one the farm bred issue, unfortunately I learnt the hard way with that one :(

Sandra

Why do they not breed Sandra? The greats of the old days were always trying to produce better working dogs. Look back to the old Sealight dogs bred by Bing Belamy. These were the obedience dogs to work back in those days and she was not the only person.

To neuter so you can continue to work is short sighted. Neuter all the best lines and they will die out in one generation!

Regards, John

I agree John.  The competition seems so intense these days and I don't think competitors have so many dogs as they used to.  If a bitch takes time out to have a litter, this will put them back so far with progressing up the classes. 

I train with someone who has an obedience champion, she would not work an entire dog because of the possible distractions, she expects and gets 100% attention to the job in hand.

Unlike with showing, where you can take them out, either once made up or if the bitch needs some maturing time, it doesn't work the same with obedience, the desire to reach the top in record time seems to take over.  Unfortunately these are the ones to breed from for the future.

The Sealight dogs still feature in a lot of Pedigrees, they are in mine, even though my bitch is show bred.  My last BC was from very strong Sealight lines, the temperement shows through even now.  I have always said the 'manic' bit comes from there too ;)

In agility, people are just not interested in breeding, most of the dogs are WSD's rather then BC's, so there is very little money to be made, infact you would probably lose money.  It is a good few years since I was in agility, but I was intensly involved 10 - 20 years ago and it was very difficult to find a well bred dog, most of the dogs were farm bred and basically mad.  How people lived with them I will never know.  Out of 10 breeders in agility I don't supose more then one would have had the health checks done.

I do find it sad walking around obedience and agilty shows these days where I see such poor construction and light eyes.  Even my obedience trainer has always said when watching my bitch, it makes such a difference to the style of working when the dog is so well balanced.

In my view the BC is one of the few breeds that the breeders in the show world have improved immensely. 

JMO
Sandra

So what you are saying Sandra is that Show bred BC are better dogs that the ISDS ones bred to work ?

Why then do 99% of judges throw out white faced dogs ? Dogs that are well constructed just the white in the wrong place Funny I don't remember the breed standard stating white faces as a fault only that white is not to predominate !

I have not seen a show BC move with the ground covering daisy cutting movement for ages

Yes the show dogs are very pretty dogs on the whole but better BC's than ISDS dogs sorry no way

I don't suppose you were around in obedience at the time the S2 regulations originally came into being Sandra. At that time the Obedience Council held meetings up and down the country to get agreement on the more radical points such as the temperament test. This we were told was because of the bad publicity caused by some of the terrible temperament dogs in obedience at that time. We were also told that on no account would it be judged as a "Stand Stay". The very next time I went in the ring my old Mandy took a step towards the judge wagging her tail and I lost a mark! Of course, you can train anything you set out to train and before long there were the same dogs, standing rigidly to attention and getting a clean sheet for temperament! A friend of mine judging at champ level said to me one day that as long as he left with the same number of fingers as he arrived with then the dog would loose no marks. Sad to say the temperament test was a complete failure. The idea was fine but the application of the idea, the judging, failed miserably.

Regards, John

I have always thought the temperament test rather ridiculous.  Why have it only in Novice?  I went through Pre-beginners and Beginners this year and never had it, suddenly I reach the dizzy heights of Novice and my dogs temperament is suddenly in question, but as I start working A it must be OK again :)

I have been asked to 'get the dog ready' for the temperament test, or I have just had the judge run his hands over her back as we walked passed to set up for heelwork.  Not a problem for me whichever way they want to do it as she is used to breed judges going over her.  IMO though it does nothing to test for temperament.

Sandra

The temperament test has been through so many variations over the years. I've just been looking at my old "Blue Book" " Kennel Club Rules and Regulations applying to Obedience Classes" and dated 1975 (I'm an inveterate horder!) At that time the temperament test applied to both novice and A. The wording at that time was:-

Novice/ To take place immediately before heel on lead. The dog to be on lead in the Stand position. The handler to stand by dog. Judge to approach quietly from the front and to run his hand gently down the dog's back Judge may talk quietly to reassure it. Any undue resentment, cringing, growling or snapping to be penalised. . . 10 points

A/ Will take place before heel free. Dog to be in the stand position off lead. Handler to stand beside dog. Conditions as for novice Temperament Test, except that test will commence with order "Last Command" and end with the command "Test Finished" Extra commands will be penalised. . . . 10 points
 
Regards, John

That is interesting, it seems to be done almost casually now.  You can still be penalised 10 points though.  Not that I have a problem, but I do feel that if they are going to do it, it should be as a set up test, it could put youngsters off having a judge just stroke them as they pass by.

Sandra

I tend to disagree with you there Sandra. My thoughts were that it was always too regimented and therefore too easy to "Train" making it no test of temperament, rather just another test of training. The stroke as the dog passes is far more representitive of real life, thinking, the child who strokes the dog as it passes. No dog of half way decent temperament should ever object or be worried by a perfectly natural occurance. It was the very regimented nature of it that ruined it first time around.

Regards, John

True, I see where you are coming from.   But personally I have found it can unsettle a young dog just before you set it up to do the round. My bitch has an excellent temperament, but I did find for a few shows she would keep glancing at the person who just touched her, not in a nervous way, I think she fancied another stroke, truth be known. 

They get over it though, just would have been better to do it at the end of the exercise.

Sandra

I have a farm bred border collie and although she is very lovely, it is not an experience i would repeat again on a hurry. As with a lot of collies breeding is not specifically for health or temperament, more for working ability. I am sure my dog would be absolutely fantastic working sheep, but as a pet (despite doing obedience, agility e.t.c. for fun) she can be a nightmare. SHe has a very strong eye and tries to herd dogs that 'misbehave' in her eyes, which comes across as aggression. She is very nervy as she had little socialisation as a very young pup being raised in a barn. I have been told by my agility instructor that its like learning to drive in a ferrari, because she is so speedy, but this makes things harder for me as a beginner. 
Consequently i am more likely to pick a show bred border collie that has come from parents with proven obedience and or agility experience, but who has also had all the relevant tests. At the vets the other day we had a 6 month old BC from a farm come in for their regular check up. THe dog has numerous problems but one of the biggest is that she is completely deaf. She also seemed to be bordering on obsessional becuase the whole time she was waiting she just kept spinning round and round! Her owners i believe are not particularly experienced with the breed and i can see they are going to have a lot of problems with training.
However if you are going to go ahead make sure you meet the parents and see that they have a sound temperament. Just because they have a working background it doesn't mean that they will excel at dog sports or even be that interested in them, or even be fit for them, but they will still be your dog for life.

This is very true L&M, The guest may want a dog for agility and flyball but she does have to live with the dog for possibly the next 15 or more years. Life is not all agility.

Regards, John

I think you are confusing working sheepdogs bred on farms(that are not pure bred half the time) & ISDS bred dogs the two are frequently not the same. None of the ISDS dogs I have met have had nasty temperaments just the opposite in most cases. I even had a top trialling dog jump into my car & give me a love at the International becuase my car was the same make & colour as the handlers car. Good job she was a bitch otherwise I would have kept her

Funny thing is when I showed my trialling ISDS dog at Champ shows I had a lot of interest in breeders wanting to use him on there KC only bitches it would have totally unsuitable breeding & I turned all requests down. He was only ever used on ISDS bitches & had a Champion son in Germany who also was only ever used on ISDS bitches, after all wouldn't want the show lines spoiling with ISDS bloodlines & working sheep ability.

I would love to know how many Show bred dogs with a KC stud book number have passed the sheep working test, my dog didn't have to as he won the real thing

I was around when they first brought in the TT & was one of the first judges to have to include it I only twice had to mark dogs for failing it bought Show Bred BC's & bought nearly took my hand off. The onwer of one certainly managed to train for a TT as it went on to get made up pity most of the pups it produced were equally iffy(you will note I have not identified what sex the BC was)

its kept to novice as all dogs have to work novice

its the KC that insist that the TT remain in obedience at some level,& tthey will not hear of getting rid of it

Originally the Obedience Council wanted the TT in Novice "A" and "B" but were talked out of in at the meetings which I talked about earlier. All this happened many years ago. I only rarely get involved with competitive Obedience these days, stewarding for a couple of breed clubs so do not often get to see it. It is no longer my game.

Regards, John

yes they do breed!!! er... pat watsons -forever magics,
dawsons-whatknows
janet aldridges-Maladridges
lyn whites-rockin'
& all the ruskaths/ coriecollies/dunnslayne/bhienn/bamboozes/busybug/jarsmystic/xandras
all off the top of my head!!!!!

this really is a huge generalisation,think more people are demanding hips & eyes & ears tested than ever.

as far as im concerened alot of people choose not to have the bitches spayed as some believe it takes "the edge" off of their work. & i dont beieve generally the dogs are done either,unless they have an extreme bitching problem.

i think in obedience you need to know WHAT you like & approach the owners who will then advise. also any health issues are widley known in obedience circles,ie what lines  ccarry what-or are said to

isds dogs HAVE to be clear from CEA to be registered with the isds!-more than the KC insists on!

in my mind farm collies are ISDS lines

Hi guest I would just like to let you know of my experience with farm breed collies we had a wonderfull girl she was jsut 8 weeks when we got her the farmer that sold her to us told us that she would settle nicely into the home and would be a good pet we loved our dog and enjoyed training her she was a fast learner but not just the good things by the time she was a year old she had become nervous and jumpy even though she had always been well sociallised we got her help and sorted a lot of problems last week at the age of just three we had to have her pts as she bit one of our children she had become more and more nervous and eventually it was all just to much I hope you would give this a lot of thought befor you go ahead

Hiya

I thought I would add my bit.
I lived on a working farm for about 12 yrs and have had contact with a few farm bred border collies. I personally never had one bad experience with any of the collies I worked with excepting for one of the old dogs who wasn't keen on children, but I personally feel an 18 yr old dog has the right to be a bit grumpy (never snappy)  with boisterous kids. My ex hubby bred and trained working collies, and to give him his due all though the dogs were not hip and eye scored they were always bred for temprement first and working ability second. I have witnessed my ex giving a friend of his hell for breeding from a bitch with an unsuitable temprement for breeding. His friends argument was that the dog was a fabulous worker to which my ex replied that may be so, but what you going to do when the wife and kids are out on the farm and one of the offspring takes a chunk out of one of your kids, the reply to this wasn't very nice so I'll not post it on here. The last litter of puppies that my ex hubby bred before I left was a very nice litter and all the puppies went to working homes except for one. Jake who is nearly 3 yrs old went to my sister who lives in an ordinary 3 bed house with two kids and a rescue collie cross. He is a fabulous pet and has never once shown any aggression. He is walked in a country park where they have sheep, goats, chicken and he has never shown any sign of worrying them either on or off the lead. I DO agree that lots of farm bred border collies are bred without any thought to temprement and are not suitable for pets but I really hate to see them all being Tarred with the same brush.

Rant over lol
Alli

Only two of the collies I have ever known have lived inside.

I agree with Lucy & Meg. My first dog was farm bred from working parents. I loved him dearly but looking back, he wasn't particularly suited as a pet dog for an 11 yr old. He didn't appear to have health problems, although he was only 9 when he died, he did suffer from arthritis from around 6 but no one ever had dogs tested for HD then. We never had problems with aggression from him but he wasn't good with strange children or strangers and was dreadful for fighting! Even if I wanted one for OB or agility, I'd definitely go for show stock. I just couldn't cope with all that energy again!!

I have one ISDS collie, and one show bred collie. The ISDS collie is, at home, very calm, very lazy, very good with people. He is very strong willed and keen to learn in agility, and as I got him when I was 10 years old controlling him was rather difficult. However he's now nearly 6 and needs 1 more win to get into championship agility, and has won 2 A's in obedience.
My show bred collie has, for me, been the worst time of dog I could get. She is very sensitive and had absolutely no drive whatsoever, and I'll admit it, until she was about 18 months old I absolutely hated her. After a lot of persistence she's started to enjoy her agility training and this year picked up a 3rd in novice jumping and had several junior wins. She's also won an A in obedience. But she's put me off having another collie for a good few years as she was so hard to teach, and I don't want to get another one like her! I've seen quite a few show bred dogs lately who have a great lack of drive in agility and potter over the jumps, don't power ahead like the working dogs do. Never again will I get a show bred collie!
Char

Alli

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the temperaments were bad with a farm bred collie.  I suggested that they do not on the whole adapt to living as a pet.  I am sure that if you want a dog for working sheep, then you almost certainly need a farm bred one.  Yours were workers and that is what they were bred to do and I am sure lived happy lives doing it.  The fact that you recognised that temerament was important helped with your sisters becoming a fabulous pet for them.

The problems occur when you try and turn a strong dog bred to work, into a pet, aggression can show through the frustration of the dog, especially when the owners have no previous experience.

I hope we haven't offended you.

Sandra

if she wants a athletic dog that can go all day with drive & detrimination then i dont see anything thats wrong with a farm bred collie. its keeping them as bored pets that do the damage-this dog will be kept amused by its "job"-flyball
shes not asking for a purely pet dog

id not advise any border collie merely to be sold as a "pet" most need something to do,however the guest wants a competition dog....which they are perfect for

My parents also owned a farm bred boarder collie which also had to be PTS, he bit me quite badly when i was five, i was stroking him while he was eating though and he was growling but i didnt know any better so i guess the dog wasnt to blame more me or my father for not supervising me with the dog !

If I were acquiring a dog to excel in a particular field I would go to a kennel that regularly produced dogs that fit the requirements!

Buying a tool for the job minimises the risks IMHO.

If I was looking for a border collie that was built and bred to perform I would research what was going well in my field of interest and then hopefully narrow down my choices to a few breeders that had a long history of success.  Whether that was for Obedience/Working Trials, Field Trials/Working Tests, Agility, Showing etc etc etc.

Some of the top competitors in the UK with champions in agility do breed from their bitches/dogs or, if you like their stuff, you would go to the person that produced them!

If you want to seriously compete then you look for a way to maximise your chances.

Part of the preparation for competition is to research not only the rules of the game but the players.............. :D

>Some of the top competitors in the UK with champions in agility do breed from their bitches/dogs or, if you like their stuff, you would go to the person that produced them!

I agree, but when you are starting out, like the poster obviously is, to find out what you like and who is at the top can be very difficult.  The top competitors who also breed have waiting lists for their dogs, with those already competing at the top of it.

I had to wait a long while for my second agility dog, if I had been outside agility at the time I would never have stood a chance of getting one of the pups.

When starting out in any of the dog sports it is often better if you can, to get into them with a current dog, learn and make your mistakes with it while finding out more about what you want in the future.

Sandra

if you have a working bred collie,yoiu will have a dog with alot of power ,drive & eye,this is fine as long as you channel it!!!! if you want to be doing a sport they will be ideal,do check hip status of parents though

If you want a collie for agility, without the risk of farm dogs as described above (I've been there - never again!) I would go for a pup from those lines. I have got a Woodsorrel and they are perfect for agility. Built for speed, extremely streamlined (breed collies can be too 'heavy' for ag.), very agile, and intelligent. A dream to live with and very nice to look at. But then, I am biased!! He also works Novice in Obedience and does flyball. Personally, I agree with JeanGenie, get the right tool for the job. A farm collie can be lovely, but they also can be a nightmare. I wouldn't take the risk.

Claire

if you do get a bitch,unless you have her spayed quite a bit of the show season may be taken up with her seasons

it depends on the "farm" dosent it?

a shepherd with isds collies is going to provide you with a motivated power machine,Perfect for what you want-but they are strong dogs. but farmer giles down the road might not!!!!

the agility-eye magazine often has litters for sell of proven agility lines & im sure many agility sites do also