I have been feeding BARF (or as near as I can get) for about 3 months now - chicken wings in the morning, raw green tripe and minced beef together with a handful of cooked, finely chopped veg and the veg water in the evening (and a little terrier meal for an active youngster who just burns the weight off).  About once a week I divide a tin of pilchards or mackerel between about 4 dogs, and a raw egg with shell each about once a week.  I don't mind the extra work because they really enjoy the food and I assumed I was giving them the best I could. 

However, I have noticed that their coats are getting more and more dry, and my dog's coat is now distinctly woolly.  None of them really shines like they used to on complete food (Arden Grange).  I am about to breed one of my bitches, and am worried that if the diet is inadequate for maintenance, it will not be good enough when she is in whelp.  I feel that it must be oil that is lacking from the diet, but am unsure what oil to add.  I have looked at various complete foods and they all seem to use different oils.  So what oil should I add that is suitable for a pregnant bitch?  I know wheatgerm is supposed to be good for fertility etc, but I don't want a specific oil for pregnancy, I just want to add an oil that is nutritious for them all, and won't be harmful to a pregnant bitch.

Just because the coat is not shiny does NOT indicate that the diet you are providing is inadequate for maintenance.  Lots and lots of commercial foods in put lots of fat and oils in specifically for this purpose rather than nutrition.

If you are considering breeding from your bitch I would suggest that you buy Ian Billingshursts Book Grow your pup with bones where he lays down the specific requirements of the brood bitch, stud dog and puppy rearing.

I would suggest that it is not oil per se that your diet is lacking but Omega 3s which ALL diets, commercial or raw are deficient in.

I would be feeding my dog Fish Body Oil at around 1000mg per day along with Vitamin E (natural, indicated by d-alpha-tocopherol) at 400iu per day.

HTH

Thank you for your reply, Tohme. 

Once before you mentioned that if I wanted to feed an oil, fish body oil should be fed, but I have looked in the local chemists etc and cannot find any.   I will have another go.  (Is it actually labelled fish body oil, or does it have other names?)  Also, I will look for some natural vitamin E with d-alpha-tocopherol in it.  Are the dosages you mentioned for any particular weight of dog? 

I have always thought that a healthy dog should have a gleaming coat.  At the moment, my male's coat is so dry and scurfy that I wouldn't show him looking like this.  The others are completely lacking shine as well, although not scurfy.

I get my FBO from Healthspan http://www.healthspan.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?id=O3-C as they actually quote the EPA and DHA level and come in non gelatin capsules.  They do a good natural Vitamin E too.

You can get both in health food shops, the FBO is normally next to the CLO but it is not always of such high quality.

You cannot really OD on either, I might give less to a very tiny dog, say 200iu but keep the FBO the same,

HTH

Thanks again Tohme

I will order online from them today.  As the fish body oil capsules are 650mg, I assume they will need about 2 each per day.  Hopefully, these and the Vit E will give a pregnant bitch a good diet. 

I will also try and locate the book you mention.  At the moment, I spend a couple of hours a week chopping and cooking veg for them, and with working full-time and long dog walks each evening when I get home, I am really pushed to the limit as to the amount of time I can spend on preparing their food.  Not to mention one weekend a month a round-trip of 50 miles to collect chicken wings.  So if the book is too extreme in the variety of foods it deems necessary, I may decide to call it a day with BARF.  There is only so much one person can do!!

I am in exactly the same position as you; I work full time, walk my dogs am and pm as well as training for them for competing etc.  I don't cook vegetables, just stick em in the food processor which takes seconds and throw in meal.

There is no need to be extreme in raw food as long as they have a good mixture of 50 - 60% of RMBs, plenty of offal, muscle meat, raw eggs and a little bit of veg then they are getting everything they need bar Omega 3s and then you must feed Vitamin E.  I choose to add raw garlic every day with Vitamin C and kelp/alfalfa which again is a throw it in jobbie.

Thanks Tohme for your reassuring comments

I have an old Kenwood Chef somewhere (will dust it off and see if the grinder thingie still works) and try raw veg that way.  I bought kelp tablets from local chemist when they were mentioned before (very expensive - £5 for 30) but never used them because I wasn't sure how much to give (used to use seaweed years ago - perhaps it's similar to that).  Have Vit C 500mg, so will add those as well.  Hope she doesn't come into season until I've sorted her diet out.  Will give Vit C, kelp (how much?), fish body oil, Vitamin E.  Will also get that book.

Thanks again

I feed Keepers Mix which contains alfalfa and kelp plus other herbs by Dorwest Herbs [link]http://www.dorwest.com/[link], feeding guidelines on tin; a 250 gm container lasts one dog 6 months! (kelp is seaweed)

Vitamin C can be given to bowel tolerance, mine are given 1000mg per day.

HTH

Thanks once again Tohme

I get various things from Dorwest, will now get some Keepers Mix.  Hopefully all these additions will sort out the coat problem as it is quite disheartening.

pjw
I thought i would just post an experience that you may be interested in reading. i used to feed BARF and was happy 'ish' until I put my bitch in whelp. She was fine before and throughout the pregnancy but remained fairly slim...wasn't worried then, until she had her pups 5days early, they were small. she was fine still, but produced very little milk to sustain her babes. An experienced breeder said to me change her food, give a high protein puppy food, which I did, milk came in , all pups survived, and were all a healthy 7kg at eight weeks.Weaned on a commercial puppy food namely Royal Canin, then switched to Burns as they were growing very fast.
I stopped BARF from that day.
It may have not been the diet but I have not felt confident with it since.
Maybe worth considering. HTH
Michelle

strange isn't it as you can't get much higher protein than a raw diet? :)

How unfortunate for you, however I know many breeders who do raise their litters extremely successfully on this, Kerioak on this board for one and many others who have top show winning dogs and GB and International Champions as well as working dog winners.

horses for courses again.  As I always say, what suits one does not suit another.

thanks for your reply tohme. Before embarking on the BARF diet I researched it extensively and believed I was doing the best for my dogs. But my experience was a huge kick in my confidence of this feeding method. My heart just sank when I read PJW post re putting her bitch in whelp that I felt perhaps I should air my experience, which may or may not have been diet related.
Michelle

Thanks dogmad, it certainly is food for thought. 

I have previously had two litters from my bitch - big, healthy pups and she produced massive quantities of milk, fed on complete food with a little tripe or cooked chicken added for taste.  What you say has given me food for thought, definitely.  I don't have much time to make a decision because she is showing signs of coming into season now.  I may take the cowards way out, and play safe with her because I know it has worked before. 

You should ALWAYS do what you feel comfortable with..........

I hope all goes well, keep us posted.
I am hoping for a litter this time, my bitch was due in season on Monday...
I have already put her on AG Prestige, because this is what i feel comfortable with for this time.
Michelle

Hi dogmad

My last three litters have been reared on Arden Grange, and the bitches put onto Prestige when they were in whelp.  I have to say that everything went very well - big strong puppies, easy weaning and the bitches in lovely condition afterwards.  I only changed to BARF because I just felt that it couldn't be right for the dogs to only have processed food all the time.  They really love the fresh meat and bones, but as I said their condition seems lacking.  I am about to start fish body oil, Vitamin E and Keepers Mix as supplements, and hope that will put things right.  I can't decide what to do with the bitch about to come into season. 

I`ve not long ago reared a litter Labrador pups from a raw fed mum, she had ten pups, smallest 14oz largest 1lb Ioz. Her milk came in as soon as she had them & she fed them herself till they were 3wks old when I started to supplement them with goats milk, she had loads of milk. At 6wks they were weaned onto raw meat, then chicken wings etc. Very even litter with only ounce or 2 between them. It only took her 4hrs to deliver them as well. Mum was very lean during the whole time till about just about 5/6dys before they arrived, she was back to normal apart from her coat at 9/10wks or so after having them. I gave her supplements from http://www.hiltonherbs.com/ the natural rearing range are the ones I used.

I know when I changed my lot over to raw food 3yrs ago they needed supplementing with various vits/mins, veg every day, for a couple of yrs, it`s only really this yr that they`ve not needed them daily. I feel it took me this long before they came up to optimum health. Dogs systems go thru a detox period when changed to raw food diet, how long it takes will depend on each dog :)

Forgot to add important bit of info, had mum & 5 of pups fecal tested for worms & all came back negative. Mum has never had a worming treatment in her life, pups neither, although my dogs do get fresh garlic almost daily.

Christine, Spain.

Heck, I don't know what to do. 

I can't think that BARF can do much harm, because years ago we all used to feed tripe and terrier meal with a bit of seaweed and bonemeal flung in, and had healthy litters.  The only iffy thing I think is that I give a lot of chicken wings and chickens are pumped full of chemicals.  I hope I have time to get her onto oils, herbs and vitamins before she is mated.

Hmmm this is true but are not the meats found in commercial foods ALSO pumped full of chemicals.........?

Probably true. So in that respect neither is better than the other.
:)

A lot more colourings, additives, artificial flavourings & preservatives go into complete/tinned dog foods than what is found in raw meats & if you can afford to buy organic meat/veg/fruit then theres even less.

Christine, Spain.

Maybe with some commercial foods but not all.
PJW I felt as you did about the natural feeding method and can this dry processed dog food be the answer...but for me the BARF method didn't hold up when I needed it and the Commericial dry food did......didn't make sense to me either. I really feel for your dilema in making the right choice for your mum to be.
michelle

Hi Michelle

You have really given me food for thought, and believe me I have been giving the matter plenty of thought. 

I am now feeding 50% raw chicken wings, about 25% beef and 25% tripe.   I'm sure the wings I buy must come from battery hens (who are pumped full of antibiotics, hormones and chemicals).  So I do wonder now if this is the right way to go.  In the processed food I was feeding there is only 25% lamb (which are not given hormones and chemicals to grow).  Even when I went onto the really high quality range there was still only about 25% fresh chicken.

Sorry to be so indecisive, but this particular bitch is a bit special as she is the last of the line from my very first show dog, over 30 years ago, and this will be her 3rd and last litter. 

I'm wondering if a compromise might work.  Go back to complete food, but add Keepers Mix, oils and raw vegetables (I've always added vegetables anyway - as I find it stops them eating grass).

PJW
I would probably go with adding the veg, but the AG prestige is pretty rich in oil. The herbs though makes sense to me. Go with what you feel is right for you, now. I do know exactly how you feel though...
Michelle

We have previously raised 8 litters on a raw diet and are now in the middle of our 9th.
From 3 weeks of age, we start by feeding raw braising steak that has been whizzed in a food processor, . We initially hand feed each puppy to get it started.

By 5 weeks the puppies are introduced to raw chicken wings.

We never stop the bitch having access to the puppies and they feed off her intermittently until they leave at 7 or 8 weeks of age.

We have never had any problems with feeding puppies on this diet and the puppies are always big and bonnie by the time they go.

Our raw-fed bitches always have plenty of milk and when they finish raising their puppies, they still have good body condition.

snomaes