Continued from here

Wow, I found this a very interesting topic, not least that my puppy isnt a very big dog. But it seems (to me) that from the different points of views lots of the writers here obviously have more know how about dogs and are therefore less frightened of them. I definitely would not walk Barney out on my own because the one thing I am petrified of is large unleashed dogs running towards me. I would feel threatened by any dog that came up barking as I wouldnt know whether it was being aggressive or just nippy or even friendly. How on earth could I tell? It would be nice to be able to tell the difference but I think when one is in the position that Shadow and others have been in the mind is not thinking straight so how could you tell if you were really being threatened or not before the panic set in? I think I would err on the side that I was being threatened and scream loudly and pick Barney up - totally wrong I suppose but I am only a 5ft human and a large dog jumping at me in any way would be too much. I wouldnt be as frightened of a smaller dog because I could give pick my pup up and give it a kick if it tried to bite me ... not very nice I know but I too am very protective towards my own be it my dog or children. Hope this debate carries on a bit perhaps with some guide as to how some of you know what is an aggressive dog and not just a noisy barker. I would be very interested. Thanks all Gina

Now you've asked something Gina, it is very difficult to explain but it's all down to body language. In a recent company memo about dog attacks advice given was "if a dog is wagging it's tail it is friendly and you can assume it's safe to enter". If only it was that simple
Having lived around dogs all my life, I still couldn't really pin-point it, with GSDs I find their body language easy but then I have been around them for years. Really got my come uppance with Monty, GSP, I had no idea what he was thinking and after a year of living with am only just beginning to understand, his language & facial expression are so different from any other dog I have known.
Having lived around large dogs for many years, they don't really frighten me, but I do have a healthy respect for them, personally I worry more about the little ones, they can get in underneath your defences and do a lot of damage to the bigger dogs if they do. Ingrid

if a dog is wagging it's tail it is friendly and you can assume it's safe to enter

That's one way of looking at it - the other is that it could just be looking forward to biting you :D

Fiona

I'll second that. My dogs were barking at the bin men one day and wagging there tails at the same time. Bin man put his hand oner the fence to say hello and Oscar grabbed him. Oops.

There's a programme coming up next Tuesday on Channel 5 (8pm) "Deadly Dogs". It "examines the efficacy of the Dangerous Dogs Act compared to similar measures in Germany and the US". Could be interesting having followed this thread.

I've only had problems with one nasty dog when out walking my old collie. It was a small terrier who went straight for my girl's throat. She was a very submissive dog and promptly lay down not knowing what to do with herself. At least with the size of the attacker I was confident in taking a good handful of scruff and held it out at arms length until the old idiot who had been wandering ahead of it came back to claim it. (obviously I wouldn't try this with a GSD!:) )Fortunately Candi had a really thick coat and wasn't physically harmed but it did nothing for her nerves.

The only other problems I've had have been with over-boisterous dogs off-lead. Although the dogs have been a nuisance the owners have been absolutely ignorant. One forgot to take their lead with them to the park, but decided not to let that stop them from going for a walk and stopping in the cafe for a cuppa for ten minutes or so while their ill-trained dog ran riot outside. When we complained that their dog wouldn't leave us alone they said our dog shouldn't be on a lead anyway,he should be allowed to play freely with the other dogs! Another let their staffie off the lead as they approached because it was easier to control him that way
What can you do with people like that?
LynnT

Obviously your bin men were advised by the same idiot my firm was !!!!!!!!
Sadly I missed the meeting and only got the write up, could have torn their theories to shreds.
Ingrid

Dog's communicate with their whole body not just their tails. What it means can vary so much it is almost impossible to explain. Where is the dogs tail when it's wagging? Tail up over his back stiffly wagging at the tip, down, swaying back and forth, whole bum moving back and forth, tucked between his legs? What are his ears doing? Projected forward, just up in a relaxed manner, gently folded back, pinned to his head? What is his posture? Forward & up on his toes making himself big, relaxed, slightly crouched, pulled back crouched almost to the ground.
The statement that it's ok, if his tail is wagging this is SO MISLEADING IT CAN BE DANGEROUS. Dog communication can be so subtle that only the dogs can read it. I have observed my own dogs stop each other, with what appears to be only a glance. I have seen a adult dogs, illicit a submissive response from a young dog without seeming to move a muscle. I have watched a new dog enter classes and for some unknown reason seem to generate aggressive or avoidance behaviours from almost all the dogs, even if he himself doesn't seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary. It usually takes years of experience and observation to even begin to translate doggy communication. Enormous subject on its own.

There is a book that might be of interest/use to you

It is "Know Your Dog" by Bruce Fogle in association with the RSPCA (Dorling Kindersley ISBN 0-86318-857-5

It is full of colour photos and helpful comments such as one dog chasing a bicycle with the comment "look, its running away from me" and another with a dog chasing/following a jogger with the comment "I'm going to see him off" with text as to why one is fun and the other serious.

For someone wishing to learn the basics of dog body language I highly recommend this book - but have no connection with it apart from owning a copy

Christine

i beg to differ about if a dogs wagging its tail its freindly. ive seen guarding breeds having a go, or trying to have a go ,at people or other dogs and there tails have been lashing from side to side, have none of you ever had a run in with one of your own youngsters taking its chance ,while the front end, head eye contact ,stance etc, is threatening ,the tail can be wagging too, so dont always fall for that one!

Hey Dizzy! Were you wagging your tail when you posted about Sierra?! :D

certainly not-i was showing my teeth though----although it could of been a smile :(

When Thistle gets hurt she wags her tail furiously. As she's quite a submissive dog I interpret it as ' I'm a really friendly un-dominant dog, you don't need to hurt me to make me submit' - even though this message is to a stinging nettle or bit of barbed wire. Do you think I'm right?

yes ive seen that side of it too, was she semi rolled up while doing it, ?

Yes Dizzy that's exactly it.
Jane

I've never had a run in with any of my dogs. I wouldnt tolerate such behaviour!

I was attacked by a muzzled GSD who was very gladly wagging his tail and almost smiling as he came over to me. You would have sworn he was being friendly until he gripped my leg and tried to eat my chest through the muzzle. I was pregnant at the time so it was quite scary. the owner just stood and watched, eventually called it away and carried on as if it never happened.

Lorraine

sorry ,i like my dogs to have character, if id wanted one from argos would of got one!yes ive had youngsters push their luck, but they never ever got anywhere with it, my dogs {rotties} where temperament tested excellent, one sat a police dog test and got 99%, so i must be doing something right, i dont like a dog to have a whimmy whammy attitude. i like them outgoing and in your face-but of course controlled- what breed do you have bec, as i wouldnt take any cheek from certain breeds,but i think for a guarding breed they have to have some sort of bolshiness
same for my kids, teenage years where a nightmare, but theyve turned out just great-its all part of learning and growing up,

Yes, I agree. Most, if not all, of the puppies I have had will try and push their luck whilst young. They quickly learn how far they can go and that anything too much will not be tolerated, and they learn that I always win.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

thank the lord for that, i was beggining to think that no one else bred for character, id hate to own dogs so subserviant that the thought would never dare cross their minds, i like the spark there, the bold confidence but as i said chanelled ,also a healthy respect that im in charge,i much prefer a dog with spirit, of course you have to know dogs to keep it in check,

Having terriers means that I have (and like) dogs with spirit, all of them have.They just know that its pointless trying anything with me. Personally I wouldnt say that a dog with 'character' needs to have had pushed their luck with a human to be called as such.

the point that they have character enabled them to sit and pass a very srict police dog test, to prove their character--well each to their own bec--once again we'll have agree to disagree but im not going to get into another tit for tat argument with you, suffice to say that i think MOST of the GUARDING breeds will chance their luck at some point-of couse as i said unless theyre spineless, and not as forward as theyd need to be to fulfill the role which they where bred -i would imagine your terriers will of been bred for years to be handled-pulled out of fox holes, badger covers etc-it wouldnt do them any favours to then bite their owners would it-HORSES FOR COURSES!!! :rolleyes:

Hi gina, I own a giant breed of dog and follow very firm rules when exercising them, for the safety of other people.
They are NOT aggresive in any way, shape or form, but they are very big and heavy.
I make it a rule that they are not let of the lead if there are toddlers or small children about, or any dogs smaller than a cocker spaniel. My Wolfhounds love other dogs and adore children, but, can knock kids and small dogs flying with just a (to them) gentle push of their nose. They also do not have very efficient "brakes"
Little dogs can be very snappy, some breeds can be nasty, giant dogs can be a threat because of their size and strength. I think it all boils down to the fact that the owners should be considerate of other people and their pets, and take the time and trouble to train their dogs to behave. I also believe ( and Im sure this will cause indignant replies) that nasty tempered dogs should not be allowed to run free. At the very least they should be kept on a flexi lead, so that they can be reeled in if they start causing trouble.

thanks for the tip kerioak I will definitely buy the book. I am an avid reader as well as internet reader LOL. I also think like Phillippa unruly dogs of any size shouldnt be allowed off the lead. I am not frightened of large dogs that I KNOW in fact most of the dogs I know are large and lovely. But just scared of strange ones running around only me .. and that was before I got Barney! I am sure most dog owners are careful it just needs the one idiot. My next door neighbour has a large doberman who likes some people but not all but has taken to me and I trust her in every way although Barney hasnt been too close to her yet LOL

PS Meant to say I have just been looking at pics of Wolfhounds. Arnt they gorgeous!! Would they get on with a lhasa I wonder? We are still intent on getting another larger dog once my pup is older. One pup at a time!!

Totally agree with the point regarding unruly dogs. My Afghan can be a real funny so and so expecially with other dogs and he is NEVER let off the lead in a public park etc......
The only time I ever let him off the lead for a run is on private ground when I know there are no other dogs/people around. Failing that it's lead excercise for him.

Too bad not everyone is as responsible as people on this board. I'm glad you are all here giving such great advice to help out people in their efforts to rear better dogs. You all do such a great job I just wanted to share that with you!

Hi again Gina, Yes, Wolfhounds are wonderful but then Im biased :)
Joking apart, they really are very sociable steady tempered dogs, and one of the best breeds of dogs to have with children.
Obviously, as they are sight hounds they are hunters, but if raised with small animals, ie cats, rabbits etc, will live with them in great peace and harmony,PROVIDING they have been brought up with them since a little pup. I would not recommend anyone taking in an older Wolfhound who was not used to living with small furries!!
I know Wolfhounds who live with whippets, dachies, and mine live with a tiny bedlington, so I am sure they would live fine with a Lhasa.