Just lately there have been many reports in the paper about dog attacks,ranging from bull type breeds to a labrador tearing the face off of a little girl.Yesterday in my local paper a doberman which was out side a shop lunged at a little two year old girl who was with her mother and aunt,for no apparent reason and pinned her to the floor by her head ripping part of her ear off.There is apparently an investigation going on as the owner has now been traced,but i wonder why some dogs suddenly decide to do this.My friends son had a near miss outside his school recently where his little friends dog(a jack russell) lunged at him but luckily only caught his glasses(lucky for him he wears glasses) the owner turned round and said"oh he is just being protective of my daughter,he always does this"which would suggest they know the dog is not 100%safe,it beggars belief it really does.In this case the owner is being irresponsible by taking a known tempremental dog to the school(on a long thin lead i might add),but what if the dog has never shown this before,i wonder why some just suddenly decide to "turn"and its makes you realise with your own,although i can say almost hand on my heart my dogs havent a bad bone in their bodies,you can never say never.

Oh god that is dreadful! Poor girls. I can remember, as if it were yesterday, when my son was attacked by a small dog he had gone over to say hello to, (it was tied up outside a shop, I was holding his hand at the time but he pulled away so fast as we went passed) he had his tear duct torn and had an emergency operation to repair it (with tubes) it was the most horrifying experience. (he was only 2 1/2). My heart goes out to the little girls and their parents. And the owners response? 'he's never bitten anyone before'.

Thats the problem they are dogs and no matter how friendly they are you just never know :( They have bad days to, you never do know if your dog is going to ever bite no matter how friendly they are.

Very sad :(

There are so many behaviours humans consider 'normal' which are actually perceived as threatening to a dog.  And one of the worst is staring - and young children do tend to stare at something they find interesting........  Which is why it's so depressing to hear of 'dog attacks with no warning' as often they ARE warning to the best of their doggy abilities, we humans just aren't heeding the warnings or don't recognise them.

I teach local Cubs about the rules to keep yourself safe around dogs - your own, and those you might meet on the streets, and the #1 rule is 'Don't touch a dog without asking the owner, and if the owner isn't there - don't touch the dog at all!!  Walk past it, DO NOT STARE!'

I agree to a certain extent but the Jack russell owner should never have taken the dog to the school in the first place knowing the dog is "protective"as kids are kids also,and they always come running out of school and this man always stand right by the entrance gate its was inevitable it was going to happen as kids simply running can make some dogs "turn".As for the little 2 year old girl,she could hardly be expected not to "stare" as she walked by with her mum as she is too young to understand at that age.It was just an unforseeable and very unfortunate incident,and being both a parent and a dog owner,i'm not sure who, if any one is to blame?

I never allow any of my children to go near other peoples dog unless they have asked the owners if the dog is okay.  As a dog groomer I am more than well aware that dogs can turn for no apparant reason.  And I must also say that I always walk all my dogs on haltis as people leave them alone then as they think they might be nasty!  I always try to avoid children touching my dogs as they can be OTT and rough them up which is not fair.

I think that it is totally unrealistic to expect small children not to 'stare' at our dogs - any dog whose temperament is so unstable as to percieve being looked at as a threat should NOT be walked unmuzzled in a public place. As for taking a known aggressive dog to the local school gates - well it beggers belief.

Owners of large guarding breeds ( such as this Doberman) or dogs which have previously attacked ( such as the terrier) face an extra responsibility to ensure that their dogs are 100 % safe in public places - if you're not sure then walk them somewhere else or muzzle them. I know this sounds harsh but we dog owners face an up hill strggle against the rising tide of anti dog feeling and every incident like this just adds power to those who would legislate against the keeping of any large guarding or working breeds .

Temperament should be the FIRST priority of any breeder and irrespective of how beautiful a dog looks if the temperament is'nt right then it should never be bred from.

Yvonne

I have kept quiet for most of the threads of this sort & yes I feel sympathy for the child & it's pain but & it's a big but-just how much should a dog be expected to put up with

For example I was many years ago showing two dogs at a benched open show-they were both obedience dogs & both had excellent characters & temperaments

I left one my very small border collie benched & asleep, with a friend nearby keeping an eye on her whilst I worked my other dog

When I came back I found the vet with my dog & a screaming brat nearby. This 2 1/2 year old had run up to the bench climbed on it & jabbed my bitch with a broken lolly stick in the face several times before my friend could stop it. The stick ended up lodged in my dogs nose. Leaving my bitch in agony, the brat was screaming because my friend(a head mistress of a primary school)had stopped the game & dragged her away, my dog did nothing being traumatized. The parents were screaming as well.

My poor girl had to have extensive surgery & was terrified of all children afterwards.

The parents were unrepentant-if I didn't want my dog exposed to brats I shouldn't have her at shows was their view

So it my girl had bitten she of course today would have had to be destroyed for having broken the DDA The brat woul go scot free being underage of course

So when I go to shows today(& from that show onwards)no one is allowed near them unless I am there-especially children & the same applies when I am out. Unless I think that the child should have the privilege of touching my dogs all requests are turned down, which is bad for my dogs as they like children, but I will not risk another being hurt

I've had other incidents including a 5 year old in a shopping street stabbing one of my GSDs with a hobby knife-that nrat was lucky that my boy was manwork trained so it was not bitten-again if he had bitten my dog would be destroyed for his actions & the brat go free

Sorry but children should be under control at all times & not approach any dog without the owners permission & if the owners not there then the child must be prevented from getting near the dog, which is down to the parents. The tethered dog had no way to escape the child & the parent must bar ALL the responsiblity in this case

"The tethered dog had no way to escape the child & the parent must bar ALL the responsiblity in this case "

Er don't quite agree with you there; IMHO NO dogs should be tethered outside shops etc where you are placing your dog at risk, of being stolen, being abused and then reacting etc.

Can't see the point of taking dogs shopping anyway; by all means walk them about and socialise them, very important, but do not leave dogs unattended; prevention is better than cure!

My dogs are NEVER tethered I was writing about the dog in the atteack. The dog was obviously at fault IYO in this case then & should suffer the fate of so many under the DDA

I HAD, when my dog was attacked in the shopping street, to take him with me for protection as part of my job at the time

I agree that far too often dogs are blamed. I will never forget reading about the GSD who bit uncharacteristically and was put to sleep. After the post mortem it was found that the child - who OK probably didnt know any better - had shoved a lead pencil deep  inside the dog's ear canal. No wonder it had bitten!!

Yes it was a shame the child was bitten, and any parent would be totally distraught - but my sympathies are very much with the dog.

Lindsay
X

Can't see the point of taking dogs shopping anyway; by all means walk them about and socialise them, very important, but do not leave dogs unattended; prevention is better than cure! 

Exactly, would you leave a child tethered outside a shop! Yet again the Dobe breed is going to recieve poor press due to the lack of thought the dogs owner displayed. I have two Dobes and much as I trust them implicitly there is just no way that I would leave them un-supervised anywhere for several reasons, ie dogs can be unpredictable, easily frightened or feel threatened.  Dobes in particular are not keen on being seperated from there owners or can be very protective (my male is when on lead and think someone is intending to invade my space). And if the owner is "shocked to the core" he jolly well should be, there is no sympathy here for the CLOWN, only sympathy for the poor dog and the child.

Not all children are "brats". Some of us teach our children what is right and what is wrong - but all children have to learn and its very unfair that they should learn the hard way through being bitten and possibly scarred. Some children are not brought up having access to dogs and being taught and their natural curiosity leads them into danger - that is not their fault and nor should it mean all children get labelled "brats" because of one unfortunate incident. Its both the parents and the dog owners responsibility.

YOU are the one walking round with an animal, which ultimately is capable of doing considerably more damage to another human than a child so YOU should be the one taking the extra responsibilities. As a mother and a dog owner I find your post disturbing to be honest.

So you believe that it is always the dog & owner at fault then ???????? My dogs have NEVER bitten or threatened anyone except on one occasion when I was attacked by a gang of"children"(they were under 16 so were children in the eyes of the law)& one of my dogs on my instruction detained one of the "children"until the police arrived & this child's skin was not even broken. I could list ever incident that has occurred with my dogs or I have witnessed but it would take  hours to write them all up so just quoted two 

I have had my dogs work with children on stage & those children were great & treated the dogs with respect.

I take great pains to avoid uncontrolled contact between my dogs & "children"to prevent any future incidents as I know that the majority view is that if a "child"is harmed it is always the dog & owners fault.

As for not all children are brats-the current politically correct view is just that all children are "angels"& their will be done-if they want to steal from my car they can, if they want to invade my garden they can, if they want to run riot they can & someone else is always to blame other than the child & their saintly parents who have always instructed them in the correct behaviour

If I sound cynical it comes from observing the change in the role of the child in the structure of society-they are now the be all & end all, so anyone who doesn't have children or doesn't think of them in this way is out of sync & wrong.

Sorry there are brats out there & lots of them-not necessarily yours or those you meet-but there are. My brother is a teacher of 30+ years experience who loves his job, but even he accepts that the current politically correct treatment of children is causing problems in society. Child wants child gets is the way the world is going

I view dog ownership as a privilege not a right, most parents treat the production & raising of children as a god given right. No one ever vets parents to see if they should be allowed to be parents do they ? Few people go to parenting classes before they become parents, few research child rearing before embarking on becoming one Yet if some one comes on here asking about breeding & dog owning they are told to research & get advice first-----Funny old world-never met a dog who has become a mass murderer, despot, child abuser, etc but I have met people that have gone on to do just that

Did I say its always the dog owner and dog at fault? No. However, it IS your responsibility to be aware that not all children have been raised with dogs and not all parents are clued up enough to teach those children not to approach dogs. Its not ideal no, but its the best way to stop your dog from biting someone and subsequently being put to sleep.

Not every child is a brat in the same way that not every dog owner is irresponsible. My kids wouldn't go anywhere near your dogs so you would have no need to worry - but some children have not been raised that way. If the child then approaches and the dog bites then its the parents fault, yes, but its not the parents who go on to be petrified of dogs and possibly scarred now is it! Its self-preservation not to leave a dog unattended - anywhere!

I feel it's usually six of one and half a dozen of the other. Obviously all dogs should be good-tempered and all children should be well-behaved. But sadly not all are, and I feel it is unfair to expect animals to have better manners than humans. Some children (thankfully few) are positively evil to animals, and the dogs need protecting from them. But if the dog is forced to defend itself from human attack, then it should not be (but usually is) blamed.

But no-one is suggesting the dog should have better manners than humans - however, people should be allowed to go about their daily business and children should be allowed to play or walk past a shop without fear of being bitten. The dog owner is in control of an animal that can cause a lot of damage with very little warning - surely they should treat them as such and not walk around in their own little bubble thinking they have the god given right to walk the earth in total seclusion and god forbid anyone who comes into *their space*?

Kids are kids - and whilst I am not advocating they should be allowed to run riot - mistakes can happen and it would be niave and stupid not to be prepared for the possibility that something might go wrong and your dog just might be approached by a child who hasn't been taught better?

It's very true, kids are kids (and understandably behave in an immature way) and dogs are dogs (who equally understandably behave like animals). Parents need to prevent their children doing wrong, just as owners need to prevent their animals doing wrong. The responsibility is absolutely equal.

First of all moonmaiden,do you not think that refering to a two and a half year old child as being a brat a bit harsh??The child is merely a baby still at that age and should of been supervised by her parents properly so she couldnt terrorise your dog,the parents are to blame in that particular incidence.Also when you say "how much should a dog be expected to put up with" ,surely you are not refering to my original post about the doberman,as this tiny little girl was with her mother and aunt and was just walking past,like i said its unrealistic to expect a child,any child especially a two year old,not to stare/look at a dog.At the same time,the dogs owner took the descision to leave the dog outside the shop,whether rightly or wrongly(i wouldnt personaly mainly through fear of them being stolen)and consequently a seemingly previously sound dog has ended up attacking a child.Like i said the poor child or her parent cant be blamed as they are entitled to walk into a shop and pass a dog safely and at the same time i feel for the owner of the dog as he was probably shocked to the core about the whole thing,as as far as i know the dog as never bitten before?

Sorry the 2 1/2 year old when removed from my dogs bench my friend was told to" f**k you old C*w"by the child.that makes the child a brat(brat-A very troublesome child oxford english dictionary)

From the tones of the replies my dogs should be expected to put up with being kicked, stbbed etc etc as I should "train"them to accept this behaviour from humans. Better get out my heavy shoes etc & start training now

When my dog was stabbed the human was very very lucky that my dog was under 100 % control &of course if he had bitten he would have had to be destroyed immediately to protect the children

So its the childs fault he knows language like that at 2.5 years old? :rolleyes:

Well I consider the parents/family to be at fault but the majority here would probably blame my dog or me

I also blame the parents - so why call the child a brat? You are labelling him/her unfairly.

Did you actually bother to read the definition of a brat ??? A very troublesome child As a matter of interest this "child"by the age of 13 was under a supervision order from the courts for animal cruelty(I got the police invloved as the parents refused to pay for the extensive injuries caused to my bitch & was kept upto date by them about the child & parents as they threatened me with physical violence)& subsequently became a very very nasty piece of work verily a brat sorry to upset you but a brat is not a derogartory term but a descriptive one

Labelling the child a brat at 2 years of age when he knows no better is unfair on the child. You might think its descriptive - I prefer the word "troubled" to "brat".

Just rung my police contact this "troubled child"is currently on remand for GBH against a 87 year old pensioner

Yep he really is just a poor troubled kiddywink

:rolleyes:

So of he's not "troubled" then WHAT is he? Do you think he was born like that or MADE like that by parents not giving a toss about him? Why don't you blame the parents instead of going round making sarcastic comments and using so called "descriptive" language? He didn't ask to be born or brought up by parents who clearly don't give a toss. You just don't like children - thats all. No doubt you like them to be "seen and not heard". How sad.

and as for your "police contact" - he shouldn't be discussing anything with you in the first place.

Oh yes he should as the "child" has also made threats to me & is the subject of a court order not to approach etc me EVER, under this order I am, according to the high court judge who granted it, entitled to know his whereabouts at all times-threats to kill are quite serious, however if you know better I'll give you the judges name & you can give him the benefit of your better knowledge of the law-this "child"is not mentally ill(according to medical assessments but again if you know better I'll put you in touch with the examining doctors for you to give them benefit of your knowledge)& in one court case sentencing was described by the judge as "evil"showing no remorse for his actions & even though shown on CCTV as committing the offence he denied it

I respect ALL animal life not just humans first & I am willing to see both sides & expect the same level of behaviour from numan & non human animals with the restrictions that some animals have natural behaviour that is difficult to alter, however as humans are allegedly the most intelligent species I would expect the best behviour from humans.

Funny isn't it my friends grand daughter aged 2 is gentle & kind, non demanding-very unterrible twos !-if she wants something she asks not demands-if one set of parents can do this why not others ???? Same reason my dogs are well behaved, because they are brought up right from the outset. She asks if she can stroke a dog she doesn't know by asking the adult she is with "is the doggie is ok for me to love ?" Hoow different from poking a dog in the eye can you get-even my youngest who is not an in your face dog-loves her to bits & plays fetch with her-a great honour as he is very chosy you he plays with

What has this got to do with the original argument of calling a 2 year old a brat? I still maintain you cannot accuse a 2 year old of being a brat when his actions are led by his parents and the environment in which he is raised in - how can a 2 year old know any better if not brought up correctly?

I have no interest in what he has done to you subsequently, clearly you have had a battle with him and his parents for years. Furthermore, you'll never get any understanding nor sympathy by being so drippingly sarcastic.

'Brat' literally means an ill-mannered or unruly child. That definition seems spot-on in this case. That's not blaming the child - it is clearly the result of mishandling and lack of appropriate care by  possibly inadequate parents - but the result is the same.

So the parents don't care.
Other folk name the child a brat by 2 years old
Exactly what hope is there that the child is ever going to grow up normally.

None.

With parents like that? You're right. None. They have made him what he is. Maybe they think he is fine the way he is. To some people that behaviour is 'normal'. It's a sad world.
:(

Thats my point. If the parents don't care and he is being labelled a brat (a derogatory term - whatever the official definition) by people he comes into contact with then he is pretty damn likely to grow up into that stereotype! Must be horrible to grow up disliked from the age of 2 with nobody giving a toss about you :(

Everyone is judged by their behaviour. That's life.

At 2 years old?

Who said he was disliked he has a huge gang of followers into the thirties/forties in number who hold him in the greatest regard, his parents are "pillars"of the community being leaders of several organistions & he has the support of his family . Very intelligent young person is studying 12 GCSEs & expected to get them all & comes from a wealthy neighbourhood-feud ? no feud from me the family did not like being taken to court for the cost of the vet fees & contested it to the highest level(lucky me my barrister is a friend) took over 7 years to sttle it though the courts-then the threats began so please get your facts straight All I have done is at the behest of the police & courts

Do you know how much interest I have in your case with him? None.

The voice of reason. Finally, a post that is totally and utterly sensible and balanced.

Hi all

I have read this with great interest, i have 4 young sons and 2 dogs, my husband is our local school keeper therefore we live in a house that 300 primary children walk passed everyday. My dogs have to be able to cope with this. Children want to stroke them and hug them and yes some will try to poke them but never do i leave my dogs unsupervised when the kids are coming in or out of school.
We live in the centre of london where a lot of people are not allowed to keep pets, so a lot of kids are intersted to know about the dogs. Also more than half the kids that used to walk passed would scream in fear when they saw Buffy (my lab), because of her great nature and love of children a lot of these are now able to approach her.
Children do run at her and IMO that it the parents fault for not teaching them the dangers but i have trained Buffy not to react to this. Just recently a 1 year old poke her in the eye with his finger, his mum was stood next to him and i was stood next to Buffy he was so fast that neither of us had a chance to stop him, all she done was move her head to one side and when i called her in she came but very unhappily.

Nobody can expect a child or a dog to know how to react to each other unless both have been taught and that is down to the parents and the owners, as dog owners we have to protect our pets and that means they have to be able to put up with children no matter what a child does.

If you dont allow a dog to meet children on a regular basis adventually it will bite one and if children don't meet dogs they won't know how to act around them, its one of does circles where everyone blames eveyone else.

At the end of the day if either of my dogs bites a child then that is my fault for not socalizing them and keeping a better eye on what they are up to.

Debbie

I also think that we could help a bit more in schools here. We teach children Road Safety when they are ferried everywhere in cars, and Stranger Danger, when in reality they are more likely to be hurt by someone they know. Surely there is room in the timetable for a few lessons on Dog Awareness and how to be safe around dogs? I for one am hoping to do this in my class in the last week of term, when there is a bit of time to play with. Admittedly, only so many would take it in, and we would still need the parents to follow it up, as with everything else, but at least it would be a start. It won't stop those out of the ordinary cases, and we dog owners have our part to play, of course, as everyone here seems to be saying, but it might make a few more children more aware.

http://www2.the-kennel-club.org.uk/web_portal/

The KC operate the safe and sound scheme

Thanks Tohme - that saves me planning next week's lessons!

Excellent idea Tracy and one that some schools do carry out - but in this case the child was just 2 years old and the attack appeared unprovoked ( although the dog may have felt that it's space was invaded ).

This forum is for dog lovers and so represents the views of those of us who care deeply about dogs - it does not however represent the views of the majority of the general public who will ALWAYS put the welfare of the child who was bitten above any other considerations.If enough of these attacks happen (because of inadaquate owners or bad temperaments) then we will get a return to the hysteria which saw the Dangerous Dog Act being invoked and maybe with many more breeds being banned from ownership this time.

Personally I would like to see a recognised temperament test for all breeding stock so that only dogs with good stable temperaments are used. If it were introduced as part of the judging procedure so that no champions were made up without passing this test then so much the better.

Yvonne

I have done dog awareness sessions at infant junior & senior schools. I was unfortunate in that I followed the RSPCA inspector who advised the children to run if approached by a dog & It took me ages to undo all the wrong he did(he's one of the RSPCA's top inspectors too)

The funding was withdrawn(used only for the literature given to the kids)& the sessions stopped by the LA when they went from labour to tory/lib dem. So now only the RSPCA inspector goes to the schools <sigh>yes he is still children to run away from dogs too

My current dogs are never in the presence of children without me being there, my cavaliers are 100 % as are my collie & GSD The children however I cannot vouch for

I have read and reread this topic I am shocked at what I have read as a mother and a dog owner I feel that the children should be first and formost they should never be put in a situation where they are in danger and as a dog owner I make sure that my dog is not put in a situation where she could endanger a child I would never leave her unattened she wont visit school gates or where there are lots of children I know she is not totally sound, I certainly would not allow my children free run at a dog show or anyother place where there are a large number of dogs or allow my child to touch any animal without permision but  I would hold a dog owner totally responsible if my child where to be bitten

Hi Maglaura,
I am a mother and dog owner and I totally agree with you. In my view no dogs should be allowed into or near schools, as they are always such hetic places. Children on push bikes, parents with prams/pushchairs, toddlers and very excited children at the start or indeed the end of the day. We all like to believe that our dogs are perfect and so well behaved and that they haven't got a bad bone in their bodies (myself included), but at the end of the day we are humans, they are animals! And as much as we like to think that we are all experts on their behaviour (myself included again) this is impossible, we are different species we don't really know what they are thinking. I think it is important to remember as  responsible dog owners that any dog has the potential at any time to cause an awful lot of damage to us as their owners, the child who has played with them since they were a pup, the cat next door, the big friendly dog of the lead down the park who has always rough and tumbled your dogs. I could go on, the list of potential accidents is endless, and all of these would come as a shock, "because our dogs have not got a vicious bone in their bodies!" or "oh he's never done that before!" I love my dogs dearly but never loose sight of the fact that they have that danger potential and so always try to ensure that they are always under control to the best of my ability and always try to avoid situations that could turn out bad for anyone/thing else, my dogs and myself. Maybe if more people thought more realisticly then there would be less horror stories in the papers and less poor dogs pts for they instinctive actions. Sorry I didnt mean to go off on one, just got carried away.

these posts are quite disturbing.  Firstly for the fact that incidents like this do happen and secondly how most people seem to be on one side or the other.  I have been on both.  My BCs were in their garden, which is fenced and which is to the front of our house.  They were their minding their own business, I was in the kitchen looking out.  some awful young child (about 8 years old) thought it would be fun to come up to the garden and spray both the dogs with water using one of those pump action water guns.  It has now taken me ages to get the older one over it using lots of socialisation with blond girls.  He started to have a real problem. 

On the other hand I can remember when I was younger not being bitten but nearly because someone had left a quite clearly distressed dog outside a shop.  I dont believe in this as you cannot be in control of your dog if you cannot see them. 

Last Friday evening, some young lads were playing up the park. Two staffies, a male and a pregnant bitch, were also there (these dogs had been seen earlier by parents walking home from the school which is next to the park) Anyway whether the kids had been harrassing the dogs or not I dont know, but the male attacked a 7 year old boy who put his arm up to protect his face and so had a fair sized chunk taken from his arm. He had to have immediate surgery and stitches to smaller wounds inflicted by the dog. (It was front page news on Tuesday).
Now, working at the same school the boys attend, you hear lots of different stories as to what the kids may or may not have been doing to provoke the dog, if indeed they did, but the point is these dogs should never have been allowed to roam free especially, as I said before, the bitch is pregnant. The owner, so I've heard, has a big hole in the back garden fence and thats how they get out! Unbelievable !

So your child goes up to a strange dog doen't ask for permission to touch & gets told NOT to touch the dog & ignores this & gets bitten & it's the dog owners fault. Hmmm Knives hurt & I am to not touch a knife & I do & I get hurt & it's the knife owners fault ???