Has anyone else experienced what we did today at Windsor? We were scheduled to start at 9, and I usually get there for the start of judging, but due to huge traffic queues got there at 9.20. Was going to my bench with my dog who was in Open when someone called over and said he was half way through Limit! The dogs were finished by 9.50, and the whole judging by 11.15, with an entry of 102. Some of the bitches in the later classes were just arriving as he finished! He was completely disinterested in the dogs and just wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible. Its not good enough when we pay so much money on entrys.

Well you should point out to the Society of your dissatifaction and I would be interested in knowing how long it took him to go over each dog 2 hour 15mins over 102 exhibits with an entry fee of possibly £20 each dog, how much per minute!

Oh lord he is judgein Elkhounds at East of England.  Hoep he isn't that way with us. :(

I have known Michael for a lot of years and he is a very experienced judge.  He is usually very quick with his judging and is usually very efficient and although he may appear disinterested definitely is not.  He can sort the wheat from the chaff very quickly.

You don't say how many absentees there were today, but with a normal absentee rate of 25%, that means there may have been only 75 dogs present, he judged for 135 minutes which makes his average just under 2 minutes per dog.

A similar thing happened to us at Midland Counties last year, but unfortunately it is up to the exhibitor to be there in plenty of time, nobody can foretell how many dogs may be absent on the day.

Jayne

Well at least it will make timing stakes classes wasier if he doesn't hang about :D  Have advised my freinds to be in plenty of time as he is a fast judge.

I'll be there same day as you E of E, Barbara, so I expect to see all the Elkhound cars on the  front row of the car park when I get there. lol :-D :-D

I was going to say exactly the same.  Michael is certainly not disinterested and notices far more than he appears to.  If you talk to him later, even weeks or months after the show you would be amazed at what he remembers about each of the dogs he has judged, including the ones he didn't appear to give a second glance to.  He doesn't hang about when judging though.

I always try and arrive in time to watch the start of judging even if my first entry is in open bitch.  That way I see what the other dogs are like and am ready for my class even if the judging is much faster than expected.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

We had a judge like this a couple of years ago. People were terrified to go to the toilets in case they missed their class. Usually one of our open shows will last until 5.30ish, he was finished by 2.15 - done and dusted and away. 

Have been under this judge with Elkhounds, he was very considerate, it was a very hot day and he sent the whole class out of the ring to stand in the shade and called us back one at a time to be assessed, he was very quick even so and the line up at the end was acceptable. Must say I felt admiration for the efficient way he did the job.

At Blackpool last year he was definitely not interested in his Munster entry and said to my friend, who won the CC later,  "You can find your CC winners and then you don't know what to do with the rest"!!!!!!!

I have shown under him previously at SKC, then he was chatty and helpful that's why I entered Blackpool!  :(

I have never shown under him, but have watched him judge, and have met him (with the pugs) when I have watched he has always seemed a very quick and efficient judge, certainly not disinterested, just knows his job and gets on with it.  he does have a bit of a "deadpan"expression, I think, when concentrating, which I suppose could be read as disinterest.

Had a similar speedy judge up at SKC last year,in pugs, Joyce Mann was doing the breed, and had got to awarding the Dog CC in 50 minutes from start of judging.  However, when I went in with Mabel I noticed that she inspected each dog kindly and thoroughly, no wasting time and no messing about.  I certainly did not feel we didnt get a good looking at, and was more than happy witha 3rd out of a big class.  One thing I did notice, she rarely took her eyes off the exhibit.  Lots of judges you wonder just where they are  looking, but with this judge she followed each exhibit the whole time they were showing, and also rarely lifted her eyes from dog level, never saw her looking up at handlers once - perhaps this could be a time saving tip for all aspiring judges.

bye
Gwen

Hey Gwen maybe a new peice of ring furnityre would be a screen that was adjusted upwards to the a height where only the dog oculd be seen :D :D

I don't know about you, but I like to see dogs pictures in the Dog Papers not the handlers and dignitaries, just the exhibit.

Here here Brainless.......couldnt agree with you more.

Interesting point I read in D/W this week with reference to face judging, what would the results be like if everyone in the ring had to exchange dogs prior to them being judged? Food for though there. :D

LOL She

Only one problem with that is that I have been a semi pro handler(in that I successfully handled other people's dogs to win rather than earned loads of dosh ;))

I am also a professional dog trainer so I can handle most breeds well, but I get so close to my own dogs especially one I have at the moment that they don't handle well for others :( my youngest one is ok but the next youngest is very definitely a mummy's boy He will not even perform for friends So my boys would be at a disadvantage & other people's would probably look better :O

And it is a fact that some people just have the natural talent and rapport with dogs to make them go so much better!  I can handle one of my pups and it looks like a nice, average pup (well OK, sometimes when I handle they look like nothing on earth, I am not a great handler!) then Mike gets hold of them, and you just think "Wow", the pup comes together, produces a wonderful topline, head up, shortens, and moves like a dream.  Same puppy, different handler.  On the other hand I can get hold of an excellent dog and somehow make it look merely average!
bye
Gwen

i quite agree Gwen.  A good handler can make an average dog look good and a good dog look fantastic.  A bad/novice handler can make a fantastic dog look good and a good dog look average.

Mike is a brilliant handler - anyone aspiring to do well should spend time at a few shows just watching how he magics the best out of his dogs.  I used to love watching Dexter and Riot - marvellous goose bump stuff.

Becky

Yeah there is always that point, my bitch puppy Ellie is a bit that way when it comes to moving her, moves much better for myself and my daughter. But it would be interesting to see what the results did come out like though :D

I had one of the few "pro"handlers in Cavaliers offer to show my naughty boy LOLOLOLOL my boy moved beautifully for him but only on his back legs :D & when he tried to get him to stand he just turned his back on him ;) The handler has now realized why everyone calls him the naughtiest cavalier in the world- for me he will show & move off lead. I keep thinking he is my special GSD come back as a cavalier definitely a one woman dog :D

On the other hand my youngest boy who isn't so "in your face" as JD &  less outgoing shows beautifully for anyone who gets hold of his lead. Tail held correctly & posing free standing wagging like a good one-had it suggested that at Leeds his Late father's breeder puts him on the table & shows him stood while her husband moves him(the lady doesn't walk too well herself & hubby moves the dogs for her) LOL Argh then I won't be able to enter under them next year of course leaving the the person who suggested it to show in the same classes under them They must think I am very very stupid(haven't made up my mind to show under them anyway yet)

Your youngest boy sounds like a dream, the person who suggested this to you must view you as stiff competion.:D A bit of a back handed compliment really if you think about it.  Best of luck whatever you decide.  I have been in this showing lark for only two years now but I am fast coming to realise the amount of manipulation (for want of a better word) that goes on, if I ever get to that stage in order to get a win I'll hang up me lead :D

I wasn't actually considering the 'face judging" aspect, simply that by just looking where it is important can save a lot of time!
bye
Gwen

I'm a relatively novice judge and find that one becomes mesmerised on the dogs/hounds and you have to rely on the stewards to let you know where you have got to in your judging schedule else you finish up making notes on the wrong class, I know other relatively new judges find the same thing, concentration on the exhibits blanks everything out and if the steward is not on the ball you can find yourself making mistakes in ring procedure. Until you have be fortunate enough to be asked to judge you are unaware how much concentration is required and if you don't give it 100% you can loose track of what your finding have been. IMO it can only be very experienced judges who can take in who is the handler or which exhibit they are assessing.

Michael gave one of my Pomeranian's it's first ever res. cc and my first too, I was fairly young then.  He was quick judging but the no. of people that day who came up to me and offered to show my dog to make him a champion !!  I never took up the offer and never made him to be a champion but that's life.

A judge can't win, we complain when they are slow and complain when they are fast !

I don't know Michael, so can't comment on him, but at a recent breed champ show, we had a pretty well known judge, who was so quick and abrupt it was unbelievable, but also quite amusing.  It was a case of 30 secs on the table, quick up and down and back to your place, and then swiftly onto the next one with barely a word spoken.  He did make everyone moved together a couple of times so I'm sure he can assess movement prettty well, unlike at Border Union where the only movement we were asked was a quick up and down.  How can you judge a dog's movement in this way?

My husband has been under Micheal in the group judging once and found him to be very fair.  He also run one of our local ringcraft classes which my friend attended and she found him to be a hard task master so perhaps he is just very efficient.  In general all rounders especially proffessional judges do tend to be quicker.  I have been in stakes classes where frank Kane has done the same ammount in as short a time giving every dog a equal chance.

Perhaps he was like our judge knew who was going to get the ticket before anyone arrived!!

Apparently he actually started judging at ten to nine, and some puppy dog owners missed their class because of this. Surely they are entitled to their money back? A judge shouldn't start before their published start time.

Not absolutely sure on the ruling for this, but sounds to me as if this is more likely to be the stewards fault than the judges.

I know personally that when I judge I rely on the stewards to timekeep for me, although possibly I should be responsible for this.

As regards money back, if people were unhappy surely they should have spoken to the Secretary on the day of the show. Which is when it could have been sorted out correctly.

Sorry to be blunt but it sounds to me as if you have it in for the judge for some reason or another.

I will repeat what I said before I have every respect for Michael, and he is a very experienced judge who would be unlikely to make this sort of error, but of course none of us are infallible.

No don't have it in for the judge, got no opinion on him personally at all. I didn't miss my classes, but have heard from people who have, including people at their first ever show with their puppy boy. Needless to say they're considering never showing again which is a shame. As I say, I got there at 9.20, so didn't see whose idea it was to start early, but have heard it was the judges as he had two other breeds to judge after us. I do know the stewards were grumbling about the speed he was going!

He has stated to a senior member of the Sibe Club that he doesn't like the breed, so why take the appointment. There are several allrounders who just accept appointments like this and just go through the motions. Showing is not cheap and we deserve better!

Hope this serves as a warning to other exhibitors before they go under him, get there early.

I'm sure this guy is fine with some breeds but in my breed he gave one of the worst movers around BOB. I felt that he wasn't looking at my dog very early on. And when it came to going over my dog he hardly touched him. He felt for the dogs testicles while looking off at another dog, he didn't touch his rear end or his front and when we moved he wasn't always watching and hardly gave me a second to stand my dog before he said "thanks". When we looked at the video footage we shot this is all very clear.
Someone here said that he claimed to know his CC winners right off, well that is how it looked too me. He made his mind up straight away (certainly not based on any movement!) and after that he has to just go through the motions because those are the rules. But really he like a lot of these alrounders would like to just walk in and cut what they think is the wheat from the chaff with one wave of their hands. I personally wouldn't enter under him again. I'm not usually that perturbed by where my dogs place, but for someone to not actually examine the dog coupled with some of his other decisions means i will be voting with my feet.

Our judge at crufts was Michael qui ney omg what a rude arrogant man.
Also he would walk away from dogs whilst the owner was still moving,, I am seriously unimpressed with how's behaviour.

Ok maybe I don't mean arrogant but some of the things he said to the exhibitors was very bad, he told one woman you can crack your face, another to go read the rule book for ring numbers placement, we have many unhappy exhibitors in our breed today.

Michael Quinney gave my dog CC and BOB...Never met him before, he didn't know me but he certainly knew what he wanted.
This dog went onto get his 2 other CCs both with BOB and group placings and considered by some to be one of the best moving in the breed.

All GOOD judges can glance around the ring and sort the greats from the ones making up the numbers.
Where Mr Quinney fails is he cannot disguise this fact well. Others are good at the old....." making everyone think they are in with a chance until the last minute" routine and people love them for it....he doesn't seem to have that gift but a good judge non the less.

I don't disagree that some judges just get on with it, but you can be polite in your dismissing of the exhibitors and not make rude comments.
I have no ulterior motive as I did well under him but I was not to mpressedhow he spoke to my daughter.

Sorry but if a judge said that to me, I would realise that I was being too nervous and serious and I would laugh!

The person he said it too has been in breed 20+and also grew up doing JH nerves were not a issue.

I've been showing for over 30!

It is no excuse to be mean to someone, ive never known so many negative comments about a judge ever than what he has had for our breed, now whether he thinks he comes across as funny is another thing but turning your back on dogs when lst your supposed to be watching them is imo not acceptable. Big judges are not exempt as was proven when another big judge got fined.

My point entirely...there are those who KNOW which dogs they want for their winners and arent big on the 'massage' technique of feeling every part of the dog.
They are supposed to give each dog the same time..but this is only a KC directive to give the punters their monies worth, it doesnt make the results any different.
I show my bitches in classes of 20-28 at the moment so I LOVE the quick ones and cant abide those who rub and touch every part of each dog...outline and movement tells you so much.....  much of the endless feeling and measuring is window dressing and unneccesary.

Tooolz, Mr Quinney certainly couldn't spot good movement in my breed! I am a fairly quick judge myself. I don't crawl around pretending to be looking for something, however, a judge is required to examine the dogs that people paid good money to enter. If they do not then we may as well just send in some video footage of our dogs and the judge can send us the results. If a judge makes his decision on his first glance of the dogs standing then finding good/sound movement is a matter of luck.

As i said my video footage shows that he did not touch my dog other then to look at his bite and feel for his testicles and it wasn't just my dog. I'm afraid i do want my monies worth and failing to deliver that is a lack of respect in my opinion.

Not every breed can be judged just based on outline and movement. Especially breeds that carry heavy coat on the legs and body (ie. furnishings on a Scottish Terrier) you really do need to feel the dog in order to determine just how well sprung the ribs are, how deep the chest is, and how low the dog is. You may be able to see a narrow front on the move, but extra coat or weight can hide lack of rib spring/depth of chest and both of those features are important in the breed. Not to mention a dog's movement can be distorted if they're carrying too much coat on the legs, even in breeds that don't carry as much coat like Goldens or Flatcoats. Creative grooming can also be used to change proportions in the head in some breeds and even create the appearance of a shoulder or rear where there isn't one.

Personally, I would seriously question any judge that didn't go over my Scotties with a fine-toothed comb, and even in breeds with less coat failure to properly examine the dog could lead to something important being missed.

On occasion when watching dogs enter the ring there are those who you know will not be placed because they lack type or are very poor examples with poor movement but unless they are aggressive or sick or very lame you have to judge them and you have to judge them all in the same manner.

So when you start you do not know if you may wish to examine some particular feature of one of the dog in the class so to cover that you check everything on all exhibits, and move them all the same, well you do if you wish to be fair. The only time you may treat a dog differently is if you move a dog again because you like it and it did not behave first time or you notice something that worries you when moving then you may wish to check what you saw by touching the dog again. Otherwise check all you wish to on all the dogs and move and WATCH them all in the same way, do not start looking elsewhere of chatting to the steward.

I would agree he has no clue on movement, our Bob was possibly one of the most incorrect movers and you only have to watch the group footage to see it.
He just seemed to want to get through the classes as quick as possible perhaps so he could go get lunch :p

I think every dog that enters deserves to be 'gone over'. I have given BOB to a dog that I haven't been wildly impressed with when watching from the ring, but when I had the chance to judge him thought his conformation text book. Years ago when I was a total novice, I was judged by a Shorthaired Pointer judge who when after asking me to move I heard him speak behind me and thought he was talking to me when in fact he had his back to me and was asking the steward for a cup of tea!. If that happened to me now I would walk back up to him and tell him to take me off his judging numbers and would withdraw from the ring then go and put a complaint in to the Show Secretary.

Another pet hate is the judge that does not submit a critique. There are a few of those around too, though I don't know if this gentleman is 'guilty' of this particular omission.

Everyone judging may have a perfectly valid and unforseen reason for failing to submit a critique but there are high profile judges who fail to do it over and over. The terrier world website is now listing those who fail to produce terrier critiques at each show within a reasonable period- the names are removed once and if the critique is eventually published.

> not submit a critique. There are a few of those around too, though I don't know if this gentleman is 'guilty' of this particular omission

Yes there are a few who get away with it time and time again.  High profile "faces" who judge so often they probably do not have time to write critiques.  They take it for granted that exhibitors should be grateful for a chance to get their "expert" opinions.  Well we had one of these famous names 3 times in the past 7 years, not once a critique submitted and their judging was atrocious.

I do think its high time there was a big shake up in the show world. Not just with judges but the treatment of exhibitors, what you get for your money etc.