Whilst this doesn't apply to me (can't imagine I'd win a cc for years and years), someone mentioned that if a judge had given a cc to a dog then they shouldn't go under the same judge again.  I understand that they can't be made up to champion by the same judge, but does it mean that they shouldn't go under the judge in the future?  Only asking, because I'm sure in my breed this doesn't happen.  Sorry if I appear a tad ignorant - shows I've still got a lot to learn.

sarah

In most breeds it would be considered somewhat selfish to go under a judge that has given your dog a CC before. And if you think about it, it puts the judge in a difficult position, if they remember which most would. If they give you the CC again then the rest of the exhibitors will feel you have deprived the RCC winner the opportunity of winning a CC. If the judge does not award your dog, which a lot will not, then it seems that the judge does not know what they like and may be their award was the result of the judge thinking what may be the best thing to do and not the best dog or bitch on the day . So it is messy and in most breeds avoided but you will always get those people who do their own thing and that is up to them as it is within the rules.

Or as in my case they change the judge at the last minute.

Actually this situation arose with an exhibitor of ours this year, they alwys enter all of their dogs so as not to leave anyone on their own at home.  One of their girls had CC under the judge last time, and this time same bitch got the RCC, and I got the CC.  Thing is that the judge may have a different set of dogs if the shows are at opposite ends of the country, one of whih they may like better, or the favoured one from last ime (as mine is now) is out of coat and not in prime condition, so again is likely to be beaten as the judge is supposed to judge the dogs on the day.

When things are close then the difference in coat or condition, or even th3e mood for showing, (or not) the dog is in will make a diference in the placings.

A big winner going under dame judge again is resented most, as sometimes a dog on a roll seems unable to put a foot wrong.

This case is different, Brainless has no choice. How one view the showing of a dog that has already received a cc from a particular judge depends I supose on if you are awarded the rcc or not. Can't see the bring of dogs so as not to leave them at home comes into it, a champion can be entered in the stakes classes or NFC.

In our breed the unwritten rule is don't show under a judge who has given your dog a CC except at Crufts or Breed Club Champ shows, which are considered exceptional (ie noone objects to someone showing again under the same judge at these shows). Is that the same in other breeds?

Janet

In many breeds especially in gundogs there are exhibitors who will enter every show no matter who the judge and then when their dog or bitch has a huge amount of CC's they advertise this fact. An example is a dog which has 63 CC's. there aren't that many judges approved to give CC's in the breed, so they must have got some under judges they have exhibited under before. Having a great number of CC's does not make the dog more of a champion, it simply means enough people still think it worthy of the CC. Adverts then appear stating that thie dog or bitch has "X" amount of CC@s and is a record holder. It is rather like making a dog up to a champion but still putting after it's name JW for junior warrant or ShCM for show certificate of merit holder. Surely once the dog is a champion that should say everything about the dog?

If that particular dog has 63CCs it means that there are 60 dogs who won a RCC who could and should have won a CC. Every RCC winner is said to be worthy of becoming a champion it seems a shame to me that the selfishness of another exhibitor may well stop them ever becoming one. But as it is within the rules there is nothing to stop people doing it,  they have no interest in the breed in general but only in their one example of the breed. Wonder if they do Open shows too.

Often, dog showing falls into two camps, the large (ish) kennel who has a steady supply of dogs coming through and the small hobby shower who possibly only has 1 or 2.

The large(ish) kennel will campaign a dog for a certain amount of time, often to make the dog up and then retire it as the younger stock is coming along.  It was often fashionable to show in Open dog & open bitch & have a male & female youngster out in puppy or junior. These people often had no need for more than 3 or 4 CC's or perhaps a years worth of campaigning.

Now look at the hobby shower with 1 good dog, who they make up, do they then have to deny themselves their hobby?  Whilst there are new judges to go under can they not have their day in the ring? :D

In my breed it is not done to go under the judge again except at Crufts or the Club Champ Show, and even then many don't bother.  At present we have a dog chasing, quite successfully, the breed record, go for it I say...and for those against him at present....he can be beaten you know ;-)

If someone only has one dog then it is understandable to want to show it, but when it has already been given a CC by the judge surely it can go into one of the stakes classes. I do try to understand the trying for a breed record but still think it is selfish to campaign a dog under a judge that has given a high award to the dog before, it is not fair to say it can be beaten in this circumstance it starts at an unfair advantage. But it is allowed and is up to the how one feels about what your are doing, if you consider it sporting to keep showing and no doubt rob the breed of the championship titles it would gain were the RCC dogs allowed to be made up, then it is OK to do so and go for the breed record for your own dog, but I think the real triumph would be to get the breed record without showing under the same judge, on every available opportunity.

So what are the thoughts about entering a champion at a general open show.  Only asking because we were beaten by a 6 year old champion in a best of breed line up recently.  I've got no bad feelings towards the dog because it deserved to win - naturally had the mark of a champion, but just wondered what would have happened if he hadn't been there.

In our breed until recently, it was never considered the done thing to show Champions at general open shows, although there have always been plenty of CC winners entered.  This seems to be changing, partly I guess because entries at open shows are not what they were.  They were always the places where you took young stock to gain experience before launching them on the champ show scene - some people did all the local open shows but rarely entered the champ shows.

Well there are those who say that if you do not enter quality dogs at open show level then how do up and coming judges know what a decent dog should be like, and there are those who say it is depressing to turn up at show after show only to find that there are the mature champions who you know from shear experience will beat your comparatively raw youngster.

Having said that, I have both beaten champion dogs at open shows and when judging found that they do not always show at their best. Wonder if the way they show is because they know it is not that important or if they just get fed up with showing or may be a bit of both.

I do a few open shows with my girls (including the champion), but not many just my favourites, have been beaten as often as I have won.  In fact I haven't even half the points needed for the New Show Certificate of Merit, so I think showing your Champion, especially when it is sparingly at Open shows is fine.  After all the judge isn't supposed to know that the dog is titled, and if it is an allrounder are unlikely to know, though I accept that a breed specialist might.  After all an Open show is exactly that oepn to all. 

If you prefer not to have Champions at shows then you are better supporting Limit shows.  Sadly Limit Shows are few and far between, so obviously people don't want them, and they may die out like the Sanction shows, which would seem a Pity.

As I said in my post, it WASN'T the done thing, at least in my part of the country - I am going back some years.  It is not the case now - very few people would bat an eyelid at a champion turning up in the breed classes at open shows these days, but years ago, believe me, there would have been (and was at times!) muttering at ringside.  That's not to say no one did it - some did.  Some people regularly took their champions to their local shows for a day out, as you do, but they tended not to "do the open show circuit" with them as they did with their young stock.
I wasn't talking about my personal preference.  It certainly doesn't bother me if people compete against me with their champions or enter under me when I judge, as I judge the dog on the day and it doesn't matter a ha'pence to me what they've won before.  You should know that as I gave Jozi a BOB over a champion, long before she became a champion herself.  However, I know several other people in this area at least who would still never enter their champions, unless perhaps they have to travel a long distance for a show and can't leave the champion home alone.

Wasn't really refering to your post as such just the general principle,a s I know some people, and especially in some breeds it isn't the done thing.

We have littel opportunity really to show our champions if we were just confined to champ shows with or without CCs, unless you want to travel widely (we have 18 sets of CCs folks and then probably half dozen other shows have us without CCs).  My freinds have dobes and they have CCs at all the champ shows, plus lots of breed club shows (probably about 40 sets of CCs), and in that breed it is really resented if a Champion is taken to an Open show.  In fact apart from young stock often the sucessful dogs aren't shon at Open shows at all, and there are some that only show at Open shows, as their dogs are not competitive enough for Champ shows in the lrge classes they have.

I am surte there are open show only dogs in a lot of the numerically strong breeds where an average dog will have no chance of ever placing at Champ show.

I just feel that it is sad that the Limit shows have been allowed to die out.

I treasure Jozi's BOB under yourself, as it was her first BOB at an Open show, even though she had won 2CCs.

I treasure the memory too.  It was the first time I judged, and I had two CC-awarding judges sat at ringside!  Lovely Jozi, lovely venue, lovely weather - all in all a lovely day :-)

Must admit that particular show (Evesham  Summer show, the day after National Working and Patoral Breeds champ show, at Malvern) is my favourite Open show and I think I have entered at it every year that I have had a dog I could show there.

Jozi's Mum was BOB there as a pup, (only her, her sister and their Mum there), but she went on to win BPIG, and RBPIS.  It was fortunate that she had won the first class of the day AV Puppy under the BIS judge, as otherwise she wouldn't have been able to go in Puppy Group or Best Puppy.

Dear Jackie H

I agree entirely with all those points :P

Surely a breed record is always calculated without 'doubling up'?

On a similar theme though, it would be interesting to study what the top dogs in any one year do, when we are talking about winning BIS, RBIS & Groups....Does going under a group judge & BIS Judge become more important than the fact you have had a CC under the breed judge?

Perhaps Gwen could let us know Mike's ethos on this?

One thing I do find interesting is in something like Mals, where there are currently no CC's it is completely acceptacle to go out under the same judge at Champ Shows year in year out ;-)

That particular dog won all its CCs under different judges.  FACT.

I agree that it infuriating to have a dog that appears "unbeatable" BUT I have always endorsed the theory that to become a champion you should beat champions.  I am not sure how many RCCs this particular dog had but he was beaten regularly by other dogs so he was in no way "invincable". 

However, like many "long lasting" breeds he had a very long career and those CCs were spread over 8 years - doesn't seem so many then.

Becky

A question for you show-goers based on this thread:

Would you not get a better representation of the quality of your breed if all worthy dogs (on the day) were awarded a CC? I'd of thought that this would alleviate the problem of a dominant CC winner, whilst allowing the record-breakers and those with few dogs to show to carry on.

Whilst you would potentially get more champions, I would have thought that the title would only be devalued if judging standards were allowed to slip? Is having more Champions in a breed a bad thing? On the same basis you could withold CCs if none of the dogs meet the standard (perhaps you already do that?)

You could still have a best of breed to go forward to the Group judging.

I'm probably talking nonsense, but it makes sense to me! ;-)

I judged in Finland recently and was told that as I had an entry over a certain amount I could give out 3 CACs (I was doing bitches and a friend of mine doing dogs).

Quite frankly the quality only meritted giving out one CAC and I was not allowed to withhold the other two.  I just thank goodness that in this country one is allowed to withhold if necessary.

A prize is an award of merit after all.

Becky

My "dog" quoted was in fact a mythical beastie, I know that we have had two big record holders in the breed, but taking the number of CC's on offer over a year, to become a record holder these dogs do have to compete over several years to gain these CC's. If a dog is good enough to win a CC then it will, as the best of champions will have an off day or the judge on the day will interpret the standard in such a way that the champion will not be as good in their eyes as a new young dog who is pushing hard for a CC.
If we had a champions class and the open class was for dogs looking to gain their crown, then I wonder if this would "cheapen" the CC? Would we end up with a lot of champions but of a lesser quality? Even if your dog did not get made up, a stud book entry was an indicator that the dog was of a reasonable standard, but I am now wondering if this can be considered to be the case now, since if my understanding is correct don't all junior warrant winners now qualify for the stud book number? A dog which wins a JW at early age could "go over" at a mature age, and win nothing as a mature adult.
As far as champions at open shows go I don't see a problem with it, because novice judges do need to be able to go over top quality dogs in order to learn about the breed they hope to judge at championship level, however not many champions do enter open shows, although CC winners often do. At an open show, in a breed I am interested in, some years ago a couple turned up with a rather handsome dog, he beat two champions that day, it was his first show, The owners were thrilled, and decided to enter the dog at a championship show, he got BOB and was in a short time made up. What a thrill for the judge of the open show to pick him out that day and then watch him get made up subsequent shows.

I would hate for us to go the way of some countries and not have Champions compete for CCs. That would indeed cheapen the title, if the best were excluded from competing.

Don't think anyone would denigh the fact that a mulit CC winner is worthy of the awards it has won, the point is so is the RCC winner or the award would have been withheld. A winner of 50 RCC does not carry any title at all, even though a large number of judges have signed to say the dog is worthy to become a Champion, where as a Champion only has to win 3 CC's to be made up.

Perhaps you are correct JG, but in that case there should be a way for a multi RCC winner to be awarded the title Champion too. Say the CC is worth 2 point and the RCC 1 and then you would make the dogs up when it had 6 points awarded. That way a dog with 1 CC and 4 RCC would be a champion in the same way, as would another dog winning just the 3 CC's. Or lets drop the RCC altogether as it is meaningless apart from the award of a stud book number and the pleasure of being a reserve best dog or bitch, Lets call it that Reserve best of sex and forget the need to be of champion quality.

I'm all for having (say) 6 RCCs under different judges counting as Chamionship qualification. Or something along those lines.

Was just a pebble chucked into the pond, but if it becomes the norm for Champions to be shown through till after veteran at every possible championship show the RCC will become of no value at all, except on the very odd occasion when the CC winner is disqualified, or out of sorts. 

What gets me is the numbers thing.

For example we have different bands for Stud Book qualification.  In the A Band (ie numerically small breeds) you get 1st in Open.  However at the other end of the scale - the E Band - you get 1st-3rd in limit and Open in order to qualify for a stud book number.

Fine - all logical so far.

Why then - regardless of the number of dogs do you need 3 CCs to become a Champion?   In some breeds the entries are so low that only about 25 dogs compete for a CC, whereas in my breed (Flatcoats) the average entry is circa 175 thus making a CC far harder to win.

Therefore - in a numerically small breed it would make sense to have to win more CCs (I know there are less allocated but the odds of winning one are higher) and leave it at 3 CCs for band E.   English Setters are in Band D but get more CCs allocated than some band E breeds - ludicrous!

Becky

Numbers doesn't necesarily equate with quality.  It can be argued that the overall wquality in some numerically small breeds is very high, and that the average quality in the breeds with larger numbers is not as high, so that in fact there are similar numbers of top quality dogs in each breed.

The most popular breed is the Labrador, but how often does it enjoy Group success (assuming Group placement is a barometer of quality), the dame until the last few years could be said about the GSD.  Can't remeber recenlty seeing too may Goldens, rough collies or Cavaliers scoring highly in the Groups.  On the other hand some oif the numerically small breeds frequently enjoy succes, with more than one of the breed.

I DO agree with quality versus quantity.  Many a time I have looked at a class of circa 30 plus and thought - crikey this will take some sorting.  Then when you actually look there are only about half a dozen really quality dogs present.

CCs ARE allocated on show entries.  However, to gain CC status as a breed then number of registered dogs is taken into account plus entries at Open Shows or in the case of non CC breeds - Ch shows.

As for Group placings - difficult.  You get some breeds or indeed some dogs that look better in the Group Ring as opposed to the breed ring.  Some breeds have more "big ring" presence. 

No doubt the KC have their own particular brand of logic when it comes to applying the criteria!!!

Becky

But then there are far less available, we have I think only 16 sets and some breeds only have 2 to start with. Not sure but have been told that CC are issued acording to the number of pups registered, which has nothing to do with the number shown.

Not sure of the relevance of group wins as a fair few group places go to breeds that did not have tickets on offer at that show anyway.

Hi Jackie

The purpose of the res CC award as I see it, is to replace the CC winner should it be disqualified.  And this does occasionally happen!  The res of each sex does does need to qualify as worthy of champion.

I do agree that multiple res CCs should count towards title.  If so many judges are of the opinion that the dog qualifies then it should count for something.  I was very conscious of this when showing a breed record holder, and never doubled up on CCs.

As for showing Chs at Open level, rare and numerically small breeds need all the entries  they can get, I see no problem, but to see a Ch GSD at an open show would be unusual!

Julie