As most of you guys know on here my bitch had a c-section 10 days ago now and sadly we lost the 1 pup. Took her to have her sitches out this morning and the vet said it would be ok to bred again with her. I said we might try again next year as shes a 6 monthly bitch. He said try her again the next time she comes into season.  He cant see a problem because she a strong bitch he said

Hi
same thing happened to my girl last year it was her first pregnancey and 1 puppy and then he had to be put down as he had cleft palet,
she had a c section too and we have mated her again she is now hopefully 20 days pregnant !

sorry to hear your sad news it is really hard at first but at least your girl is ok !
all the best with your next mateing .

                                     take care sarah & molly

   ps what breed is she ?

I'm sorry but after having to have a C Section and producing a puppy with a cleft palet I would have not bred from this bitch again.

This is not doing the breeds any favours!

John

shes a Weimaraner

Hi John
sorry you feel this way !
but my breed of dog are known for this condition as are many others it was just bad luck!
you can have a bitch who whelps 3 normal healthy litters and then has a litter with deformaties its just bad luck, and to say it does her breed no good, i have spoken to many breeders and vets who all share the same opinion that it its just bad luck ,
surely if a woman had a child with cleft palet you wouldint advise her not to have any more children as this does no good for the human race !  or would you ?
my girl is in tip top condition and there is no history of the dam or the sire with this condition so who is to say that she wont have a healthy litter this time .

                                                                 sarah & molly

The gene pool of the human race is many times the size of the gene pool of a single dog breed and can stand the relatively small incident of cleft palet. If people continue to breed from dogs which produce these faults then your breed will NEVER be free. The first time it is bad luck, from then on it is an avoidable problem.

John

Sorry but i dont agree, but then that is my opinion and many others it isint always the genes that cause cleft palet
it can be as stated in the book of the bitch a stressful incident, infection , over vitamin supplements
,so i feel my girl should have a second chance, as i have the same respect for my animals as i do humans ,
but you are intitled to your opinion and you gave it im just saying i dont agree not everybody can agree on the same things all the time !
any way i dont wish to get into an argument with you you have your opinions and i have mine lets just say we dont agree with each other .

                                       sarah & molly

<<my breed of dog are known for this condition >>

That almost certainly makes it hereditary.

I've said this before but I'm going to say it again:-

"The breeders of today are the custodians of the breeds. The breeders of tomorrow can only breed with what we leave them and if all we leave them to work with are blind deaf cripples then what a terrible legacy." We have a duty of care when we take on the continuation of a breed.

John

Hi John,
yes my breed of dog does have a risk of this , im not disputing that fact !
but if all breeds of dog who have a risk of this condition stoped breeding incase this happened we wouldint see these breeds
you have obviousely taken a dislike to me i dont think this is at all about the dogs you just like to be RIGHT !
well i have taken the advice of many TOP BREEDERS with the same breed as mine and from 4 different vets so i am quite content with their expert advice and not once was i told she should not be bred from again there will be puppys born everyday with some sort of deformaty,
as their will be humans its part of nature, my sister has a downs little boy and she is planning another baby soon i wouldint dream of saying to her dont have another baby in case it has downs ,

                                                                 sarah & molly

p.s i will not be answering any more of your replies as this is childish you have your opinions i have mine leav it at that

Sarah, I nether like or dislike you, I don't know you, I have never met you or would I know you if I did meet you in the street!

Having got that out of the way, I'm glad you have taken the advice of many TOP BREEDERS. Unfortunatly they appear to know no more about it than you! If you cannot breed healthy dogs then you would be doing your breed a service by not breeding at all and if your TOP BREEDERS are breeding from stock like this then I see no future for your breed. I would also change your vet!

John

I feel I must point out that "The Book of the Bitch" includes cleft palate as an inherited defect, as well as one that can be caused by other events. If my bitch produced a pup with an inherited deformity I would seriously consider removing her from the gene pool. I would certainly not repeat the mating that produced such a pup, and would have to do lot of research into the background of any potential stud to ascertain whether there had been any incidents of the condition in his line. Obviously if there was he would not be a suitable match for the bitch.

Cleft palate is a very serious condition in dogs, and one which ideally all breeders will be trying to eradicate. Our breeds are too important to let our emotions about our individual dogs, much as we love them, get in the way.

Joining in a little late here, and leaving aside the cleft palate issue, I would be very wary of any vet who advised going ahead with a further mating from a bitch who had had a c section.  I know there are some breeds who frequently have to have c sections, but with the vast majority of breeds I would think long and hard about risking my bitch again. 
bye
Gwen

I am sorry you lost your pup and if I was 100% sure that the condition wasnt hereditary, I would breed again. Coupling this with with the fact that your girl had a section and the pup had a cleft palate, I personally, wouldnt breed from the same combination again. I MAY tho try with a different stud dog to rule out the father. I would definately leave it a year tho.

However, sadly, in humans, cleft palate IS hereditary, both my auntie and her daughter had cleft palate. I would therefore assume that this is a gene that is carried down.

Hope this helps

Hi
on the advice of the vet whitch was she hadint whelped and reared a litter , was that to try next season befor the scar tissue had hardened, we did think long and hard about this looking at past generations ect , and we did use a different stud dog, my girl was in tip top condition , just becouse she has been bred again by no means says she will produce the same thing or need a c section, hopefully she will be fine!

and yes in the book of the bitch it does state that cleft palet is an inherited gene, but it is also caused by other things thats all i was saying .

if i thought that she would definately have a litter of pups with cleft palet I WOULD NOT be breeding her again,
im sorry that this has upset so many people but people do have different veiws and i appreciate that but im just saying this is not somthing that has been taken lightly alot of research and talking has gone on and so came to a desision to breed her one more time .

                                                  take care sarah & molly

Hi
if you all go to page 13 mollymoles you will find that alot of people agree with my dission !

                          take care sarah & molly

Not sure what your last post means, but will say that I have never known anyone breed a bitch the season following a c-section, and there has to be very special reasons to breed her the next season following a normal whelp anyway. Never mind the scar, which if the job was done properly, should cause no problem, what about giving the bitches body time to recover for this whelp before planning the next, if in deed there should be a next. It is your bitch and I don't doubt from your posts, you will do as you wish but for me to breed a bitch again that has what appears to be not one but a possible two hereditary problems is very unwise.

Makes a lot of sense Jackie.  I was wondering if perhaps we (and our Vets) are just over cautious in not breeding again after a C section.  Of cours,e a lot depends on the reason why the secition was needed, if there is some structural defect which made it essentail, then of course a further mating should not be considered, and in my personal experience inertia does run in bitch lines, if it occurs once it is more than likely to occur again.
bye
Gwen

Just like to say, when my girl had abdominal surgery to remove foreign object, not c section I know but still tummy surgery, vet adviced a yr before breeding so muscle would recover properly, Vet said weight of carrying litter could damage them.

Christine, Spain.

Not sure if it's the same in dogs but in humans further pregnancies following a c-section puts the mum at risk of uterine rupture which can be fatal.

FWIW, I have never been in this situation with a dog, I am relieved to say, but have twice been in this situation with persian cats - on both occasions, I have asked that the queen be speyed at the same time as the C-section - having put the cat at risk once, I was not prepared to risk their health on a second occasion.

My personal opinion would remain the same for my dogs.

Margot

Interestingly enough someone in my breed (normally easy whelpers) had an awful ordeal recently.  Her bitch had a single very large puppy by C seciton about 18 months ago (the pups was around 2lb not the average 100z to a pound).

This time she ended up needing a C section again as labour wasn't progressing.  I think a day or two after whelping the bitch became very ill, and it was found that her weakened womb had ruptured and she was full of blood.

As a result she needed an operation, and obviously pups were not getting Mums milk, and I think soem of the litter were lost.  The bitch went back to rearing the one or two pups left, though I think still on suplementation.

The other side of this would be my case.  My 9 year old girl had a litter at just under 3 years, then 13 1/2 months later her second.  I then mated her for a lst litter (she had missed previous season) when she was 6 1/2.  The first two litters were whelped with ease, and were average litters of 7.  this time she was in first dtage labour for 48 hours, and once she had gone a day over based on last mating (mated over a four day period) she had a C section for 4 pups, one of which died later.

Now if that last litter had been her first I may not have bred from her again.

Her daughters that have ben bred from have had no problems, nor her grandaughter.  Her Mum had her two litters normally also.

What I am saying I think is that the benefit of the doubt should be give if the bitch has had one C section and there appears to be no family history of C sections.

Hi Gwen

I think it would depend on why the C-Section was considered necessary.  If it is for one pup then I would not worry about mating her again - if it was for primary inertia with a larger litter then I would certainly think twice.

Add to that the problem with the mouth and I would certainly not do be thinking about mating her at her next season until I had had time to search to see if, a, the mouth and, b, the c-section were in her or the dogs background. If there is, any pup produced by the bitch or dog could be carrying not only the problem with the mouth but also a problem with natural whelping. Agree if it is only one or two pups or a very large one the C-section can be ignored but not the mouth. And whatever the cause of the C-section I would not dream of mating the bitch at her next season.

Hi
my girl had the section becouse 1. she was over 2. only 1 puppy that was large
and yes i have searched the back ground of my girl and all were good whelpers, as for the mouth there is no history of this in both the dam or the sire, so you see i think it was just one of those things and there is nothing to say she wont go on and have a healthy litter with no need of vet assistance, as for research it i have done nothing but research it since it happened spoken to many many people, on the net , at shows, read books if i honestly thought that my girl would deffinately whelp pups with deformaties i wouldint breed her where would the sence be in that, i dont think any one would breed a bitch if they were sure this would happen again .

                                                                 take care sarah & molly

Seem to remember that the problems with the mouth such as you have experienced will miss one or more generations before reappearing. It is unlikely that an effected pup would be used to breed from but sometimes the litter mates are, and they may be carrying the same genes. You will need to look further back down the lines of the 2 dogs you are using and also at their siblings and their progeny if you wish to make sure you have eradicated the problem from your breeding programme.

The C-section is another matter and that would seem to be just one of those things but it does not change the fact that your bitch will need time to recover from her whelping and the caesarean.

Hi Jackie
i have already said that i have checked all backgrounds, and even the breeder who i bought my girl from kindly asked the owners of the other puppys my girl was whelped with if they would mind me contacting them to whitch they agreed the 2 other girls from her litter 1 had produced 8 healthy puppys and the bitch diddint have c section , the second had 5 healthy puppys and the boys were not being used as stud dogs so i cant comment onthe boys , also looked into her grandmother back ground nothing with cleft palet i really have looked hard into the back ground , when i have spoke to alot of people they seenm to think that it could have been somthing to do with an infection she got half way through in her foot , but you can never really be sure what coused it i wish that i could say that x was deffinately the reason for her having 1 puppy and he had a cleft palet .

                                    take care sarah & molly

you said that you have checked all backgrounds and i am not saying that you have not but are you %100 sure that no 1 has lied to you.  very few breeder will tell some1 if there is something wrong with there breeding animals that is not a health test (something that does not go on the pedigree) most pup's with cleft pallet are put down at birth or soon after so very few ppl would know about it so would be easy to keep quite about.

JMO

Just an obseravation here really to S/lovers comment, *very few breeder will tell some1 if there is something wrong with there breeding animals that is not a health test (something that does not go on the pedigree) most pup's with cleft pallet are put down at birth or soon after so very few ppl would know about it so would be easy to keep quite about.*

I`m speechless. Maybe I`ve been fooling myself that there are people who do care about their dogs/breed/breeders & they`re not in the minority, it seems the more I find out, the less I know & even less I want to know.

Christine, Spain.

hi Christine

i know its not a nice thing to think about but when you do think about it, it could happen, there are a lot of ppl out there to make money off dogs and i know it wrong and so do most on this board but ppl do, do it.
when looking back though the pedigree you might find that most of it is from ppl that you trust fully and may even know but there only has to be 1 person in it for the money and not the good of the breed to let something like this in to a line and not tell any1 about it.

One thing you can be 100% sure of and that is that an infection of the foot is NOT going to cause a Cleft Palate

John

Cleft Pallett is an inherited condition, therefore it has come from one of the pedigrees, not necessarily just mum or dad, it may go back 3 or 4 generations, you will need to go over your girls pedigree to ensure it hasn't come from her side, then do the same with the stud dog.

Good luck with whatever you decide

Hi John
wonderd when you would have somthing else to complain about,
actually it can. also between day 20 to 35 is when organs and limbbs ect are being formed and it is these 2 weeks that are vital ones for the litter at that time the embryos are very susceptible to event that happen things like INFECTION, poisoning ,medicationif she has an accident or becomes over heated say in a car , deformities such as CLEFT PALET ,single eyes undeveloped limbs urinary and heart all accour at this time.
befor you say 100% cleft palet could not be coused by infection you need to be sure as i am looking at a very well known book written by someone with far more knowledge than you obviousely have and it clearly states this in the book .

                                        take care sarah & molly 

As you obviously know everything there is to know just let me know your breed and I'll stay well clear of them.

There is more than one book to be read when considering breeding, including several very good books on genetics and mode of inheritance. As the cleft pallet makes it difficult, if not impossible, for a pup to feed and even if they can manage to suckle a little, the milk will go down into the lungs and cause trouble there. Most breeders would not be looking round for another cause they would not take the risk of being wrong and passing the problem on to future generations. But you have made up your mind and know you are right so you will carry on and do what suits you.  I have the feeling that nothing anyone says will deter you or get you to think again and you will breed a bitch who has had a caesarean at the next season and risk her or future pups having hare lips and cleft pallets.

the pup didnt have cleft pallet that was mollys reply. the pup died to due to the mum being to ruff. i put this down to mum having c-section. the only reason she had c-section was because there was only the one pup.

Who said it did?

Gofaster began the thread asking a specific question and the thread now appears to be about cleft pallets rather than the original question :)

I agree. Locked until I can branch it.