hi
i have taken my leo to his 1st show. he is now almost 15 months and was in the junior class.he wasn't placed but i didn't expect him to be.this was our first show for both of us. i asked the judge his opinon on my dog he just said too big? nothing about teeth,stand,gait etc.the way he spoke he was too big in mass. he is a giant breed and still a pup but the thing i want to know is how can a dog be too big? i thought that the dog who is closest to the standard was classed as the best in class etc.his height,length ratio is correct for a leo. the kc for weight is 70kg he is around 63kg.other owners said he has a good body, and would look funny if he was smaller for his height.also the judge said he would never be any good for champ shows. how can he say this because he is still growing/learning etc.just wanted some advice from other owners, show people. as i am completely new to all the shows and never done it before.i can't help his size he will be whatever he will be,just must have a big giant i guess.    

How tall is he?

approx 31/32" to shoulders,approx35/36" to tail base and 63ish kg.

AS I dont know what breed he is it is hard to be specific, but, for instance, if he looks like he is already over the max height for the breed and is obvoisly still growing then the judge may have discounted him on that score.  You have to remember that while the breed standards area template for the perfect specimen, they are open to interpretation by each judge, who give different values to the virtues and faults of the dogs to suit their own ideal - it is not done on a points system, and whilst we dont have actual disqualifying criteria in the Uk standards, many judges have a 'thing' about a particular fault or two which they will not forgive, so mentally mark it last.  In my breed bites are such a fault, some judges will take the mouth into consideration of the whole picture so a dog with a less than perfect bite but otherwise excellent may still get placed, whilst others will see the bite, and discount the dog at once, even if it is the best in the class in all other respects. Markings are another such bone of contention.  Some are totally unacceptable, but will be taken into consideration for the whole picture, some look at the mismark and put the dog last regardless.

bye
Gwen

he isn't to big in height the standard is 32" at the shoulder. he is more or less fully grown in size just needs to gain more mass. he is a leonberger dog

Think he is a Leonberger Gwen, the standard hight for dogs is 28.25 to 32.5 inches so may be the judge thought as a youngster he is to tall, but who knows, some judge will pick on one thing to avoid going into to much detail, best to continue showing and see what others think.

all the owners that know his dad have said that his dad is a big leo and he must be taking after him genetically. i am going to carry on with him as i wont stop because of 1 peson.just thought it was a harsh comment for a 1st time show etc. like i have said i can't help his size but 1st of all he is a family pet and thought i would have a go at showing.

Showing can be hard especialy if you are showing a family pet, but if you are not happy to accept the answer don't ask the question. Judges will form an opinion and if you ask will tell you, just continue showing and next time you may find that the judge likes your dog.

i am happy to accept the judges choice and would like to know the good and bad points. so i can learn but how can i work on or improve his size? i suppose some one would say feed him less but im not prepared to do that to my dog. if i did i would be messing around with his growth.

Hi Marie, sorry, in your first post I thought you meant Leo was his name.    But there are a few facts about showing which you are going to have to learn, I am afraid.  First of all, every dog has faults, and many of these faults are ones we can do nothing about,  when the judge gave his opinion I doubt he meant it was something you could deal with in any way.  Other judges may think otherwise,  and you may find that as your technique improves you can more readily disguise the odd fault of two ;)  However, when showing you have to develop a very thick skin.  Asking a judge for an opinion after the breed is judged can be helpful, but often is not.  Lots of judges dont want to have to enter into a conversation which may turn accrimonious, so will fob you off with platitutudes such as "needs time to develop" or some such - what they may mean is that it is one of the worst specimens they have ever seen!  On the other hand, they may think it is the best one of the breed they have ever met, but were reluctant to put it in front of a better know exhibit or handler!  You also have to bear in mind that not all judges are equal, and the opinion of some judges is a lot more valuable than others.  As you attend more shows you will learn that some judges consistently put up a particular type, or will not place another type highly.  And whilst Ch show judges should have a thorough knowledge of t e breed in front of them, lots of Open show judges doing jsut 3 classes may simply have accepted the breed without any real knowledge of its finer points.

Enjoy the days out, learn by looking at other exhibits, and you will soon be able to evaluate the true picture for yourself.
bye
Gwen

From his first show at 6 months my Beardie always had "Hope he doesn't grow anymore" in his crits. Nothing you can do either show and take what comes or don't show. I compromised and do club shows and work him. We have more places for showing than obedience but have fun. As I say he isn't a £20 an entry dog :D
                                              Anne

Marie
I would just give it time...he may not grow much more and will look fine in adult classes.
Archer

Admittedly I am still at exemption level :D - Lana is 10 months old and a black Afghan.  We started off doing really well and I now have a good collection of red and blue rosettes from pedigree classes.  At one show the judge didn't even look at us properly - needless to say we didn't get anything...He approached me after, said he liked how she moved but beware her colour - some judges dont like darker colours
Then I went to another show - totally disheartened - and she cleaned up, we won loads of stuff..Afterwards the judge approached me, said he liked my bitch, said she moved nice and how fashionable the darker colours are right now!!!!!  Can you believe it!  I enjoy exemption shows but I'm afraid I wont be going any further than that, it upsets me when someone doesn't like my bitch due to their opinion, I thought judges followed a set breed standard - of which any colour is accepted in the afghan!!!?
Sarah

this is what i thought they look for the dog which is the best to the breed standard.i will carry on showing him and learn as i go. he did really well considering it was our 1st and all the dogs around him.he enjoyed it making friends with the ladies and other males. we are at another open show in july so we will see how he gets on.but im not the kind of owner that shows are the be all and end all to my dog,he means more to us than that.i am considering working him as of water rescue. the only thing is if he will come out when told.but he will enjoy it.the only thing regarding colour in his breed is that white is a fault and not too much black,but he isn't either.

To be honest it isn't worth getting upset about an exemption show...the judges are not 'proper' judges and often don't know much about specific breed requirements. Open shows are better but to get a 'real' veiw on your dog go to a few champ shows.One is not enough since the dog may not be the judges 'type'...after 3 or 4 you'll start to get a feel for how your dog measures up.That doesn't mean you should give up ... my 3 year old was always placed last until he was 18 months..he now has 2RCC.
Archer

I agree Archer - reckon judges at exemption shows more often than not haven't got a clue about different breeds.  Only last week my daughter entered with Cody, our Aussie, in a class 'Best over 15"' - well, when the judge came to look at them, she said, ooooh dear he hasn't got a tail....!!  The funny thing was, that after my daughter had said he's an Australian Shepherd, they then got 1st place!
  Hilda

Judging is a matter of one persons interpretation of the standard, our standard says any shade of grey but we have judges who will only look at dogs who are silver grey, you just learn who to enter under and who not. Or you enter and go anyway because you enjoy the showing and do not care to much if the judge does not have the sense to like your dog/hound ;)

I hear you Jackie :) - but thats my point, surely if your dog is a good example of the breed you shouldn't have to avoid certain judges?  I used to be a junior handler around 12 years ago and I would show at open/champ level every weekend, I worked mainly with rottweilers.  The owner/breeder I showed for used to avoid certain judges for reasons such as her bitch was small or her dog was too dark etc etc but generally we did really well.  I used to hear comments, ringside, when certain dogs won or comments about the judges favouritism's!!  Well this put me off and I stopped at age 16 (wasn't a junior handler anymore!!)  So now I have Lana and was tempted to have another go...General advice is to go to a few exemptions, then open, so perfect time of year to try some exemptions...However I do love the fun classes :D  But even at that level there are some nasty comments - but what confused me recently was that the judge who didn't like our colour was an afghan breeder/exhibitor and the judge that did like our colour was an afghan breeder/exhibitor...It just kind of put's me off...I just thought that there was a breed standard that judges are familiar with and picked the dog that was closest to the standard, I mean why do you have judges that only look at silver grey when the standard says any shade of grey?  Is it their opinion that silver grey is more disireable?  Does it make individuals any better at what they were bred to do??
Sarah :)

Thing is Rosser how do your force all judges to think the same, and if you could, you would only need to go to one show and if your won you would know all the shows you entered you would be likely to win, if you did not, you may as well give up now. I do my best to understand my breed and to try to judge the dogs that come under me to the standard but my personal feeling about how my breed should be must colour my judging and if I am to judge to some sort of predestined rule I will not only stop judging but showing as well. Personal preference, providing it is within the standard must play a part else what is the point of having a large number of judges one would do, and how boring would that be.

...Seeing as you put it that way ;)  Its a funny 'ol game!  I think I'm too overprotective of my little girl, I think she should win, win, win (pushy mum :D) all the time 'cos she's the best in my eye's...Do you know, the breed standard for the affie mentions that the hound should look at and through one, Lana's breeder told me she didn't think Lana aloof enough to be a top show hound, even said "she might be the sort to join you on the sofa"!!  Well she does :) and she gives me kisses and she is a nutter.  Because of her friendliness rather than aloofness we were given a £50 discount off her price   Some experienced people have told me she is a lovely example...At the moment I'm enjoying the exemption shows, but I put my hands up to reading the judges comments on winning afghans in dog world, and I hope to attend some shows for a nose....
Cheers Jackie! ;)

Even at the top end of Afghans opinions differ - when Riot (Ch Tejas Conquistador) made her appearance in the ring (she started her career later in life than  most)  the general opinon ws that she was the wrong type "too American" was often said, at one show several people in front of me at the ring side said her movement was incorrect saying "She moved like an Airedale".  If you research her show career you will see she was one of the most prolific winners ever in the breed,  placed in the group 3 times at Crufts, multi BIS etc, etc, and anyone who remembers her movement in the Group ring at any of her Crufts appearances will often tell you it was so beautiful they got a lump in the throat.  Yet many judges wouldnt consider her for top honours for what they percieved to be her failings.  After all, we pay out entry fee and invite the opinion of the judge on the day, if they all though the same we might as well only have 1 show per year!
bye
Gwen

Except for matches and such I don't judge Afghans but have an interest in them because they are in the hound group. Yes, they should have an aloof expression but what always draws my eye is a good natural saddle. And my pet hate, when they shuffle round the ring as if in bedroom slippers.

Try open shows you are far more likely to find a judge who will be able to assess your hound properly but they will always not agree with one another. And your hounds expression may stop it becoming a champion but it will not stop you having fun showing.

Your right Jackie :) - funnily enough my bitch is from american lines (Gwen!)  We dont have a saddle yet...Too young at the mo - and I am having fun with my little shows right now :D

hi
i have spoke to his breeder also the club sec. the dog that won best of show is 1 of the biggest she knows.the one that got 1st in his class is no different to him in size etc and only a few weeks older than him.so i think it is what you said that he would'nt place him because he was the new boy so to speak.we are going to take him to some ring craft to help us anyway.the dog that won his class was it's 15th show and only our 1st. but that is what i meant i wasn't expecting a place. i am trying to be fair and learn about showing as i am a complete novice.i understand that no dog is perfect and would welcome peoples thoughts on him to help me learn.but such negative comments to us was harsh.i can understand why people give up with showing.my dream for toby is nothing to do with the show world as such i would like to work him as a PAT dog with sick kids etc.but a show life would be nice if i can get him into it.

Marie, it is possible that the judge did not like your dog at all, and realising you were a novice instead of saying that or listing a long list of perceived faults, they just said it's too big. Now that should not upset you the next judge may really like him. Knock backs are part of showing and until you have the experience and courage to assess your own dog it is best not to take too much notice of any comment but to weigh them up as a group of comments and take the average.

Making too much of this one judge will spoil your enjoyment of showing.

Marie

A lot of years ago, when I first started showing I had a nice little bitch who I took to her first Open Show, the judge on the day owned her father so I naturally as a novice thought that she would like my bitch.  She was unplaced!!!  I was very disappointed and did much the same as you did I went up to the judge after the classes were over and asked for her opinion of my girl.

I was told in a very nice way that in her opinion, I should take her out of the ring as she would never make a top quality show dog, but that she had a lot of good points and it may be a good idea to use her as a foundation bitch to breed on from, and she would very likely produce me better dogs to show.

I took that advice on board but decided that, as that was only one judges opinion I would continue to show her, which I did with no particular success until she was 15 months old, then she blossomed and started to win.

That particular bitch went on to win a CC and a RCC and her Junior Warrant.  I bred a litter from her and she did indeed become the foundation bitch of my kennel, and is grandmother to both my champions and numerous others of her descendants have won tickets and ben placed at shows. 

The first time I showed her she was only just 6 months old and with my experience now I realise that she was definitely not ready to show at that time, and that particular judge was probably right about her at that stage and if I had been judging would probably have thought the same as she did,  she was definitely right about her making a good foundation bitch.

I suppose what I am trying to say to you is that a judge is only judging your dog as it looks on the day of that particular show, not judging on what it may look like in the future.  Also as someone else said, take all the advice you are given, think about it and then make up your own mind on the basis of all you have learnt.

It may be that your boy will go on and do well it may be that he won't, but just remember that you will always take the best dog home with you whatever the judges opinion.

PS: A twist at the end of this story is that this particular judge has since used my girls grandson on one of her bitch's.

Jayne

i know i have the best dog he is only young.like i have previously posted he is 1st a pet and great with the kids that is one of the reason we got a leonberger.but i really didn't know that the show world was like it is,only time will tell with him as to regards showing.i guess im just in for a learning curve regarding the showing scene.at the end of the day he is what he is or will be as he grows and he will always be the best to us.i don't take showing as the be all and end all of my dog and never will.

Thats exactly the right attitude Marie.

Enjoy your boy for what he is, first and foremost a pet.  If he does win rosettes in the ring that will just be a bonus.

As you do a little more showing you will find that the social side is just as important as winning.

Jayne

more dogs now a days seem to very big
it's moore than likely to be muscle so it was BAD jugding.
                                   good luck
                                                 hilarybrenn