i HAVE READ SOME POSTS SAYING IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO MATE FROM BOTH YOUR OWN BITCH AND DOG.  i HAVE BOTH AND DOES IT NOT COME INTO ACCOUNT THAT YOU KNOW BOTH TEMPERMANTS OF YOUR DOGS BOTH MINE HAVE VERY SIMILAR BREEDING LINES IN THEIR PEDIGREE NONE TOO CLOSE THOUGH.  THEY HAVE THE SAME GGRANDFATHER.  THEY BOTH ALL ALONG THEIR LINES HAVE THE BREEDING FROM THE SAME BREEDER USING DIFFERENT STUD DOGS OBVIOUSLY THEIR MOTHERS ARE DIFFERENT LINES. BUT ON THEIR FATHERS LINES ARE ALL HAVE LILLINGS OF yORK IN THERE.  bOTH MY DOGS HAVE BEEN A TREMENDOUS PLEASURE TO OWN AND I TRUST THEM 99% AND WHAT HARM IS THERE IN WANTING OTHER PEOPLE TO OWN A PUP FROM THEM. i WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP PEOPLE IF THEY ACTUALLY MEET AND KNOW THAT BOTH DOGS ARE FROM A FAMILY HOME.  WHEN I WAS LOOKING FOR A BITCH THE STUD DOG WAS NEVER AVAILABLE TO SEE SO HOW DO YOU KNOW HOW HE WOULD BE LIKE IN TEMPERMANT.  mY DOGS ARE BOTH GOLDIES

maybe it would be best if you joined the site that way you can ask and reply to more things as no doubt you will want to in the long run.. steph...ohh and please take caps off as it is classed as shouting..i cant do smiley faces lol.. sorry

It's not so much that anyone doubts the temperament or good lines of the parents, it's just that if someone has used their own dogs it would suggest to most people that they haven't looked around for the "best" stud, they've simply used the most readily available.

As for seeing the stud dog, I have pictures available for all new owners.  As part of their puppy pack they get a picture of both the stud and the dam.

It's just a personal thing, Guest, and not an attack on anyone who does use their own stud.

Guest
responsible breeders use the best stud not the most convenient which is what you would be doing if you used your 2 own 2 dogs.
I own 3 male elkhounds....one is only a baby but the other 2 a nice examples who have done well in the show ring.My oldest has his stud book number and 2RCC's...one from crufts this year.However if I were to buy a bitch with the intentions of breeding(soupposing she turns out to be a good breed example and passes her health tests etc) I doubt very much f I would use my own boys for 2 reasons.One...as discussed on another thread it then becomes even harder to keep them apart and the male will become very focused on mating your bitch EVERY season .and Two....there are better and and probably more suitable males out there which would produce better pups than using my dog...after all theres more to a dog than temperament.
Archer

Yes i understand there maybe better dogs out there with better scorings than mine but if mine has pretty much the same scores, surely it would be more reassuring for people to actually see the sire and how he is around people and children than just a photo of a lovely looking dog.

When I go to buy a new puppy, I like to visit the home of the bitch and if the bitch owner has a nice bitch which he/she has done all the health tests on I would feel confident that they would have looked very long and hard for the best stud dog for their bitch, if I had any doubts I wouldn't buy from them. That would also apply to anyone who had mated their dog to their bitch, if I had doubts or the health testing had not been done then I'd not purchase a puppy.

If the dog you own is the best stud for the job then of course you will have others lining up at the door begging to use him too!

I simply wouldn't buy a pup from somewhere that I couldn't visit the stud dog. When I bought my first pup, logistically it wasn't possible to visit the stud dog but I knew others who had seen and used him so was quite happy, I could have gone to visit if I had felt it necessary.

i dont mean he is the best and havnt said so. i would use the same lines anyway. obviously people who want to show dogs would rather have a spectular stud with many winnings under his belt. but as a someone with children safety comes more of a priority

If you look carefully, you will be able to find both qualities in a stud dog.

im not going to get your approval whatever i say you obviously thing what im doing is wrong. but i have spoken to the breed represtive of our area and they didnt have a problem with it . thanx for the advise anyway

I think that anyone who offers a dog at stud should be able to guarantee its temperament 100% anyway, the way I read your post is you are wanting ot breed a litter to sell as family pets - but there are thousands of Golden Retreivers bred every year, do you really feel the breed needs your one extra litter?  Its great to know your dogs mean so much to you, and have wonderful natures.  Why do you want to risk this happy family enviroment by adding pups into the equation?  You could find your boy becomes unsettled, pees in the house, and develops other undesirable traits, which often happens when sex is first introduced into a dogs life.  Then you have to weigh up the risk of whelping for your bitch, and the costs involved from rearing the litter.  Can you take pups back later in life if problems occur?  What if all the pups dont have the superb temperaments of your two, will you be able to home them? 

I am not trying to be uhelpful, just objective.  I dont have a problem with  people owning both dog and bitch if all other aspects are right - well, I couldnt, as we often use our own dogs!  But then, our dogs records speak for themselves, and I dont think we could ever be accused of using our boys for convenience, we do so much pedigree research before planning each litter, we simply decided on what we believe will be the best mating, regardless if the dog is ours (or even in the UK!) .But then, we are breeding for something to show ourselves, or for orders for show pups we have.  This results in other pups being available to pet homes, and I would trust that neither we nor any other reputable breeder would breed without being 100% with the parents temeraments in the begining.

bye
Gwen

Sorry Woomeg, I wasn't trying to say that what you're doing is "wrong", after all they're your dogs and you know them best.  I was merely trying to say that I personally wouldn't buy a puppy from a home that owned both parents, unless there was an exceptional reason for me to do so.

So would it be seen more viable if i went to the breeder that i want the same lines from and asked to use one of her stud dogs that maybe is my dogs father.

I don't imagine she'd suggest your bitch's sire, but maybe a dog sired by your bitch's grandsire would be suitable.

Hi I think she meant her dogs sire not her bitches ;) Gillian

Perhaps we do not understand why this poster want to use these lines, may be there is research behind the desire to use these particular dogs, and as long as their is no doubling of gene faults and the construction faults will be corrected to some extent by the use of her own dog. Providing the poster understands the possible problems of doing this and her liabilities in law, and they can afford the expenses, then may be it is ok to go ahead. But I would ask why it is felt necessary to breed yet another litter of Goldens when there are so many in rescue already, most it has to be said from pet on pet breedings.

Probably :o At my age I get easily confused! :o Certainly the best person to ask for advice on a suitable stud dog would be the breeder.
:)

Hello Guest :-) I am reliably informed by the experts on this site that you should not be breeding at all unless you have researched the breed for 10 years and intend to show the puppies, this may be the case but you do not say so not sure :-) Seriously though,  you say your dogs have similar breeding lines and good temperaments ? I would go back to the breeder you got the dogs from and seek their advice, any good breeder will help you to decide what is best :-) good luck.

Very good advice Reddoor as long as the breeder was a good one and they know what they are doing.

Reading thourgh this thread again, I dont think any of us have asked the one basic question, because we have been side tracked down the "which stud dog" line.  What needs asking is ...  why does the poster want to breed a litter in the first place?  If it is just becasue they think theirs are wonderful pets, and want to breed more wondeful pets - well there are a whole lot of wonderful pet litters of Goldens already around, why add another litter?  Showing or working are usually seen as the valid reasons to breed a litter, the resulting matings producing carefully bred, health tested pups for pet homes too.  However, if you do have an expcetional example of your breed (verified by knowledgable independent people in the breed) which has excellent (not just OK) health test results, and with a reliable, good pedigree behind it, then breeding may be an option, as long as you are prepared for all the negative effects, financial liabilities etc.  However, if you have a "nice Pet" why not just enjoy them as that, and dont add more mediocre pets to the thousands out there.  There are an awful lot of beautiful, wonderfully bred, excellent hip scored goldens, who all have fantastic temperaments.  Ask yourself if your bitch has more to offer the breed than these do?  If you want to breed to keep a puppy for yourself, why not go back to your breeder and  buy one from the lines you like.  If you want people to have pups who are as nice as yours, refer them to your breeder to find a pup from similar lines.
bye
Gwen
bye
Gwen

We all have to start somewhere dont we.  I wonder if all these reputable breeders for many years got all this negative attitude when they first started.

May be not because by the time they decided to breed they were well know within the breed as having the knowledge needed to produce sound and healthy pups. Not saying that such a person cant have a misshap in a litter or that they will always get it right, but at least they have tried and will learn from their mistakes, using their knowledge to avoid such problems in the future.

I keep getting the same attitude from alot of posts is that no one likes it when new breeders want to try and get established in breeding their dogs. I am losing a fighting battle here, i thought i could get help not critisism

...deja vu guest.. :-)  you do not know the irony of your remarks :-)

I dont understand them all i want is to experience and gain more in breeding so why all the negative attitude its as though they have their own group and wont let anyone else in

But breeding is an end-stage of the learning process! The apprenticeship and study is done first. By the time a person is ready to breed their first litter they know enough experienced people in the breed to act as their guide and mentor.

I think the problem is that many people put the cart before the horse - they aren't prepared to learn the basics before jumping in at the deep end! If your dog (or bitch) is close enough to the breed standard, then by all means have the health checks done, do the research into its genetics and find the right mate. But we all have to bear in mind that only about 10% of pedigree dogs satisfy those criteria. The rest, however delightful, are not breeding material. And very few pet owners can be objective enough (we all think our dogs are the best!) - even if they know what they should be looking for!

Where i live it is very hard to find golden retrievers i had to look and wait along time in getting my 2.  We searched the dog homes first within a big mile radius but to no avail. There were no goldens in those kennels.  For the past few months i have searched through local papers to find any that are for sale but again to no avail.  Where are all these rescue goldens because they are not where i come from. Both breeders who i got both bitch and dog used the samilar lines in obtaining my 2 goldiesm on sires side that is. 

The rescue goldens are found by contacting Breed Rescues.

I did know where to look for rescue GR.  Both 5years and 2years ago i tried to find puppies with a pedigree from these recue homes but to no avail, i didnt want an older dog or bitch as i have children and wanted the pups to know their pecking order within our family

woomeg - if you have happy healthy dogs that are health tested, a good vet, help from your breeder and you have researched a lot into your lines and breed then there is no reason why you shouldn't have a litter of pups. There are far worse folk breeding out there and at least you are asking for advice and you have to start somewhere IMO. Good luck :)

Hi woomeg,  you are upset because you arent hearing the answers to your questions you wanted to hear, but you did ask for advice.  And to be honest some of your  posts show you dont really know enough to be planning to breed yet, in a responsible manner.  For a start, someone planning to breed does NOT look for their foundation dog/bitch in Rescue!  Rescue is for homing the unfortunates of the breed who have, usually through no fault of their own, been given up by thier owners.  The majority of these dogs are pets, not of show/breeding standard, and NEVER come with registrations - few come with pedigrees!  So starting your search off with rescue would not have produced what you wanted.  Secondly, some people have to wait months, even years, for their order of a quality puppy from a good breeder of their chosen breed.This is not because of any shortage of pups, but of TOP QUALITY pups.  Most of us here appreciate breeders who are striving to breed the best they can, carefully picking dogs and bitches who complement each other in every way.  Distance is not an object in acheiving these matings (or in finding and buying our dogs).  And a whole lot of us are involved in various breed rescues and have to pick up the peices from a whole lot of casually planned "pet" matings, where insufficient knowledge has led to problem pups, and no bakcup is provided to the buyers when things go wrong.   So please dont blame us for being negative about your plans - you just raise a lot of "Red Flags" to those of us who know what a minefield breeding is.

So, to ask once again, WHY are you wanting to breed a litter?  Perhaps if you explain that, we can give advise about the basics.  Dog breeding is complex and timetaking if done correctly.  There is a whole lot to learn before the complexities of breeding should be considered, how much do you know about your breed, what qualities and faults do your own dogs have?  Lets go back to basics and see if we can give you some constructive advice.

bye Gwen

When i got both my dogs i didnt purchase either of them to breed.  I understand that most owners think there dogs are of good quality of the breed as i do. but if you have the scores that indicate they are well, they both come from good stock. Both of them have been mated down their lines in the past 5 generations by similar stock, surely this doesnt mean that they are not good standards of the breed. Ok i dont show but neither did my reputable breeders and one of them has been in this for nearly 60years. Yes i suppose i want people to have what i and my family have a dog that you can trust nearly 100%, who has good scorings, good pedigree behind them. And as much as people have been saying in the posts there arnt many breeders here in yorkshire, not that im going to continue anyway. 

Point is, how do you know they are of good quality, and their pedigrees are from healthy, quality lines?  If you have done pedigree research, lots of reading, talked to others in the breed, then yes, of course you can know theses things without showing, but if you just know it because your breeder told you so, you need to check it out , and do a lot of learning. Especially if, as you say, your dogs breeder did not show either.  Do you know why she picked the dogs she did, andy why they chose those particular lines to use?  Do you know about the parent hip scores, and any problems further back in the pedigrees.  And I am sure there are a lot of golden Retriever breeder in Yorkshire, just dont think any actually post regularly on this board. I can think of 2 kennels just outsdie of Darlington on the N. Yorks border, for starters.  And now I have just had a quick look through last year Leeds show Catalogue, and there are 39 exhibitors of golden Retreivers listed as coming form Yorkshire.  Whilst not all of them will breed, a large proportion will.  So certainly no shortage of them!  How did you find your breeder?  Did they come recomended or did you just see an ad?
bye
Gwen

sorry on the pedigrees i have from breeders they have shown in past generation. how would i go about investigating the pedigree. All have hips scores on if they are true .

Pedigree research comes from knowledge gained over years, reading books on the breed, belonging to Breed clubs who often compile compendiums of health test rescult etc, and produce year books where dogs are advertised with show and health results, and talikng to the breeders of the dogs who appear in your pedigree.  This is where the whole show scene makes the learning curve quicker, as you have access to people who can give opinions (good and bad) on the dogs in the pedigree, and those you are thinking of using.  Some people in every breed are founts of knowledge on pedigrees. I have a friend in Boston whose depth of knowledge on Am. cocker pedigrees is amazing - he cant recite pedigrees going back generations, can link traits seen on dogs in the ring today to ancestors generations back.  Talking to this sort of person is invaluable, as you learn the "hidden history" behind many lines.  Finding a "mentor" to guide you through the minefield of pedigree dogs is important if you are just starting out.  Lots of people find their mentor in the breeder of thier first quality dog.

However, all this takes a lot of time, so to have some idea of a quick route, try to a "google" search on the dogs in the pedigree, and see what you come up with.  If they are from good lines, you should find details of wins, possibly links to kennel web sites where even more information will be available.
bye
Gwen

Thanks will try that now

woomeg
are your dogs KC reg??
Archer

yes why

Think Archer asked because it would be impossible to check back if they were not. Why do you not post a list of the dogs, say the parents and G. parents for each of your dogs and see if anyone can help with info on any of them. That would be a start and you may be able to take it from there. People may not know the actual dogs but they may know the kennels and therefore the background and history of the stock.

My dogs parents are:- Amayandas tom thumb of lilling and Beal Serpentara
Grandparents on sires :- Amandas Indemnity and Branjoy Gold Plated
   "              on Dams :- Amyandas Cover Boy Of Tarkus and Gina Bambino
G    "           on sires:- CH Standfast Augustus / Amyandas Inspiration
                               Branjoy Silva Blaze/ Branjoy Parl Lane Prudence
G    "           on Dam:- Branjoy Silva Blaze/Branjoy Bell of bow
                               Master Gladiator/ Briarwater Buttercup
My Bitches parents are:- Lilling Shannon and Goddess Diana of Brayton
Grandparents on sire:- Linchael the Goldsmith of Jackralee/ Forever Daphne of Lilling
      "           on Dams:- Alibren Lucky Lad of Lilling/ Anneka of Brayton at Perot
G    "           on sire:- Linchael Persian Orchid/Lichael Fjaril
                              Emmersbrook Marquis of Lilling/ Ember of Low Moor
G     "          on Dam:- Statesman of Stona/ Stanroph Shades of Time at Alibren
                               Linchael Tortoiseshell of Lilling/Honey of Brayton

Has no one heard of any of these Golden Retrievers. I thought i would have had some feedback by now either good or BAD!!!!!!

'Tis Sunday, people will be out or have other things to do, have faith, if any one knows them they will tell you, bet if anyone does John will.

Have worked down your list as far as the first Branjoy and that one, Branjoy does make an apearance in the show ring, not the actual dog but the Affix. All those mentioned before that I can not find but have only had a quick look and people who are in the breed or at least into gundogs should be of more help. You could even start searching the web yourself, you may find pedigrees and all sorts to start you on your way.

Goldens are not my breed I'm afraid but Lilling is well known in both Goldens and Flatcoats. Ch Claverdon Jorrocks of Lilling, A Flatcoat belonging to the late Dr Nancy Laughton who passed away on Christmas Day 2002 being the dog that springs to mind.

Best wishes, John

Thank you for your help. on both sides of my dogs the showing starts with their GGrandparents I did not list thier ggggrandparents. Are their any sites that would help i was told one last nite (google) but it just showed the pedigree no other links to see anything.

Maybe members of one of the many Golden Retriever breed clubs would be able to help?

John, you have let me down, thought you knew all things gundog ;) Will wait till we get some GR people answer but it seems this is a mix of different lines with some known lines added, we will see, I have not been able to trace most of the Affixes but I am working blind knowing nothing about gundogs apart that is, from very ancient Cockers.

The Lilling lines are from parents to ggggrandparents, what do you mean about lines been added obviously lines have to be added to help in the breed or pls explain

I might not but I know a woman who does ;) I'll pass the names on and see what she can tell me.

Best wishes, John