Hi im 23 and I love labradors, always had them.
I am planning to buy a property in devon, with kennels.
I want to breed labradors, this is my dream, Im going to start by buying 1 bitch from show winning lines, then breed her to a suitable stud. obviously health being the most important factor.
BUT i dont want to show dogs personally, would that be a problem?
can you breed without showing?

The dogs would be just much loved family pets.

Hi guest.. :-) that sounds a splendid idea and no you don't HAVE to show them...to do so helps if you intend to keep puppies from your foundation bitch , breed from them and sell their progeny. I would suggest  you read as much as you can about your chosen breed then visit a few Championship shows, go around the benches , talk to the breeders and look at the dogs. Also join one of the breed associations. Take your time, then approach a few reputable breeders, tell them what you are looking for and be prepared to wait for the right dog to come along. I hope you find what you are looking for, join the forum and you will be able to chat freely with the many people on here who can help you  :-D

It would be hard to just buy a bitch from winning lines and start breeding her as the owner may not allow you to breed from the puppy you buy. Plus it's a nice dream to become a dog breeder but there is ALOT of hard work involved and you need to work out all possible scenarios such as your bitch dying in whelp meaning you could lose all the puppies or be left to hand raise eight puppies who will need feeding, cleaning, stimulation etc every three hours or so for at least 8wks. Most people who show there dogs do so as they feel that there dog has certain qualities to it so by not showing your dog some people could read it that you have something to hide by not showing your stock. You can breed without showing, as many people do every year, but what you breed may not be of any use as if you could pay £500 for a dog from show winning lines (which means it is a 'standard' dog) or you were asked to pay £500 for a dog from someone who 'likes dogs so they breed them' the majority of people would go to the first breeder. We were asked to pay £550 a month ago for a puppy that was advertised as good pedigree but when we got there the dams owner didn't even know the sire's KC name or what lines he went back to and as you plan to breed Labs you will have some tough competition if you don't do it the right way. Plus going to shows gets your face known and also lets you see some of the dogs that are realted to yours and also give you a good oppurtunit to see what the top winning dogs look like and what you should be aiming for! Sorry if it seems like I am having a go but there are so many dogs bred every year that end up in shelters or even worse that you need to be breeding for all the right reasons.

We will all try to help you as much on here as possible so as reddor said join up and ask any question you feel like as we were all beginners once and whislt we may not know everything we all know a little which should help you on your way.

I don't think that any reputable breeder would sell you a quality bitch from show winning lines if you are just planning to stay at home and produce puppies.  They would sell their best bitches to someone who will show an interest in the breed and become knowledgable by learning about the lines that do and don't breed well together.  This takes many years and the best way to do this is to at least GO to shows, even if you don't want to show, because that's where you will see what stud dogs produce consistant quality progeny.  How are you going to see what is the best dog for your bitch if you don't see what is available??
Also if your bitch is successful, you will have a waiting list for her quality puppies.

Have you considered how you are going to hold down a job and still manage to breed dogs or are you going to employ a kennel maid and if so how will you pay them. You may have private means in which case OK that is how things were done in times gone by. Now the only people who make money from breeding puppies are Puppy Farmers and puppy warehouses.

<<would that be a problem?>>

44000 Labradors bred last year alone! Thats the problem and its a very big problem.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, John

Looks like we are shareing the blanket John :)

I'm sorry I don't agree ..everyone has to start somewhere...you all did, how mean to deny others the pleasure of owning and breeding good dogs.  Yes,it is hard work,expensive and at times heartbreaking. Unless people have changed completely since my time in top Championship show kennels owned by international  judges, there must be some reputable breeders with a heart out there who are prepared to help novices to get started. We sold puppies from champion bitches as foundation bitches to people wishing to breed their own dogs, the people initially  said they did not want to show but having gained the confidence went on to show and win. I think if this person is prepared to do the research as I suggested above and to take time to do the thing properly they have as much right as anyone else to breed their own dogs. If young people like this who are prepared to learn properly are told it is not for you where are the well bred healthy dogs to come from? Are we going to leave a clear field to the puppy farmers?

Reddoor, of course we had to start somewhere but not until we had spent time with more experienced people who were willing to share their knowledge and experience with us!  When breeding dogs, you can't throw your mistakes in the bin!  You either keep them yourself or if your ignorant, you sell them to some unsuspecting family!
" If young people like this who are prepared to learn properly are told it is not for you where are the well bred healthy dogs to come from? "
Of course, but guest hasn't mentioned anything about learning properly - that's exactly what I was suggesting, at least going to shows to learn if she doesn't want to exhibit!  All that was mentioned was buying a property with kennels and then buying a quality bitch and breeding!!
Many established breeders will be happy to help a novice, but I don't know anyone who would pass on their valuable (not monetary but after years worth of study, work, sweat & tears!) lines to someone who just wants to stay at home and produce puppies!

Those breeders who either show or work their dogs usually breed to improve the different qualities of their breed. If you are not actively involved in working or showing your dogs how will you know the best lines to use ? how will you know what needs improving ?  A dog may look fantastic but have all sorts of problems in his lines.

Breeders who also show are constantly being judged on the stock that they produce and have a huge incentive to produce the best they can - similarly with working dogs.

Most responsible  people who breed, do so with a particular aim in mind - just to breed labradors because you like them is not , in my opinion " a splendid idea ".

This forum is always full of posts from people who think that their dog should have a litter because they are wonderful pets - we should NOT be encouraging people to breed if they are not prepared to put in the necessary work to acquire the knowledge of how to improve their breed.

A breed like Labradors has a huge rescue problem already - it is NOT possible to make a living breeding dogs unless you produce them in such numbers that you are in effect a puppy farm.

Yvonne

You sound very keen to learn and obviously have a love for Labs :) Im not a breeder nor will I ever be because it sounds too much like hard work to me lol, but if you think that you will research thoroughly and only do this because you think you can improve the breed then I think you need to get involved with showing. Nice to hear you are concerned about the health as well, good luck.

...thanks Zoe :-) a bright light who has read the guests post and is willing to be positive and helpful
:-D :-D

" then I think you need to get involved with showing. "
I agree Zoe that guest needs to get involved with showing to learn about her chosen breed, even if she chooses not to show herself. :D

....'then I think she needs to get involved in showing to learn about her chosen breed even if she chooses not to show herself '  Well done Val :-) did I not say exactly that in my first post, is going to shows and talking to breeders on the benches not being involved with shows ?? And no, the guest did not say anything about wanting to learn..that is self evident in the fact the guest used this site and asked advice in the first place :-D

Val and GD...don't think you bothered to read my first post..had you bothered to do so you would have seen I advised attending shows, talking to breeders and learning about the breeding in every possible way . Has this person said they are going to breed endless litters and make a living that way? No! Have they said they don't want to attend show? No! Be doing as I suggested in my FIRST post they will learn all the drawbacks and what to do and what not do do.They could have just gone to a puppy farm and bought some poor bitch and churned out puppies but they did not,instead they came here for advice. Yes! Some breeders are willing to give their hard earned knowledge to help others. I worked for and ran the kennels of a Ch. show sec/int judge/breeder/founder of breed ass. We sold puppies to people some  whom we taught to trim,hand strip,how to handle their dogs,we took them to shows and handled dogs for them. We had what I think was the only dual champion cocker bitch in the country, from one of her litters we sold a bitch pup to a young lad who went on to be a gamekeeper and bred a litter..not to show but his litter had  the best of all traits. Grandemon how many Champions have you bred and how much have you contributed to improving the strain of your breed? The people I worked for are both gone now but their knowledge and dogs provided the foundation for many kennels and improved  breed lines..and yes I do know what I am talking about, having started in kennels at the age of 15 showing my first dog for the owner at Leeds in 1965 and learning from the best breeders and professional handler in the country. I try not to see the negative aspect of everything all the time but to help people and set them on the right road. :-D

i aggree reddoor,the guest at least is asking all the right type of questions!
if the guest is going to health test the bitch & insist the dogs atre tested whats the problem?

thank you michelled :-) glad someone else can see the positive aspects and when someone is at least trying to find good advice. I joined this site to learn as much as I can about dogs and if I am able to help anyone with passing on things I have been privileged to learn over 40 years I will try to do that too. I don't profess to be an expert and have not bred or shown dogs for years (caring for a baby and dying husband put paid to that) and I will of course bow to the superior knowledge of Grandemon who probably knows much better than me and will no doubt have bred more than the dozens of champions I have been resposible for, yes it was some time ago but the principles of good breeding have not changed. People who decide they are going to do something often go ahead and do it anyway better they are at least pointed the right way and not judged before they start :-)

Guest
I am not having a dig....but how much experience do you have of Labs? If you have never shown then I would suggest you research VERY carefully and try and find a 'mentor' within the breed who can help you.
I started showing a breed which I had very little knowledge of...I knew what I liked but had no idea why or if they were good examples....they were just elkhounds.Having been showing for 3 years now I have learnt a huge amount...breed standard,breed faults,about movement,etc....If you don't show you will need someone who is a GOOD breeder who can assess your dogs and advise you.Everyone thinks their fogs are the most perfect BUT you need to be able to assess your bitches faults and strengths and find a mate(if the bitch is of breeding quality) that will improve upon her.You need to be able to 'understand' pedigrees and know what lies behind all your breeding stock and any dogs you may use.
As far as buying in your foundation stock you will need to find a breeder who has the type of dog you prefer.Then you will need to persuade them that you are into it for the good of the breed not for money and then you will have to hope that any pups you buy will turn out good enough to breed from.
There are too many people out there producing poor quality pups for money...If you want to do this properly take your time and be honest with yourself and other people..Good luck
Archer

yep Archer :-) I agree entirely, you have elaborated upon the things I said in my original post thanks  :-D.

I would like to ask a question to all of the breeders.

I want to breed Gordon Setters and Swedish Vallhunds.  For the last 5 years I have been constantly mentoring with a Rottwiler breeder, I have handled his dogs in the show ring, I help with whelping puppies (last summer I whelped my first litter without help), with taking care of and bottle feeding newborn puppies, matings, exersicing the dogs, and recently I have started helping planning the litters.  For the last 6 months I have been involved in a Swedish Vallhund e-mail list, and I will be starting the Dog Mentor e-mail list soon, and I have started mentoring with my puppy's breeder.  I read all I can about breeding.  I know a good deal about Gordon Setters in regard to the different lines, different dogs, breeders.  I know what type the different breeders create and I know what type I want for my foundation stock.  Lately in the shows I have been able to mentally choose which dogs will place high, as I have been showing Setters for about 4 years. All my Gordon's grooming and trimming is done by me. I am learning as hard as I can about Swedish Vallhunds, but I do not claim to know them as well as Gordon Setters. 

Am I going about learning the right way?

Absolutely!!  Exactly the right way Kate!  You are putting in the time.  You are learning about the breeds from those with more experience that you.  You are learning about whelping - all with the backup and support of mentors.  When you do have your first litter you will, of course, be nervous, but you will have knowledgable people in your breed to ask advice from.  You are gaining knowledge to maintain/improve the breed standards.  The future of your chosen breeds will be in good hands, as it should be, if you continue like this.  I can't applaud you enough! :D

I just wish that everyone would do the same instead of buying a bitch (or worse still, a dog and a bitch to mate together!) and churn out puppies.

Kate,
     I don't know much about show dogs, but you sound like the sort of person that should produce some excellent stock. With that kind of attitude and hard work you deserve to breed dogs of the highest calibre.

Mind you, the more I study dog breeding the harder it all seems!

Gordon Setters & Vallhunds - an interesting combination! :-) Very best of luck!

<I just wish that everyone would do the same instead of buying a bitch (or worse still, a dog and a bitch to mate together!) and churn out puppies. > As Val Said

Has anyone mentioned that not all lines comliment each other, I breed labs, but I have a bitch and a dog that I would never dream of mating together.  They are both from SH. CH and full CH. but are so different that I would have no idea of the outcome of the litter. Breeding should only be for the betterment of the breed and most people think if you have two labs (or any breed) you can mate them. NOT SO.

Guest, I have had dogs for 20 years+ and still class myself as a novice. I still ask and keep asking,

Kate couldn't be better :-D you could well be a famous breeder one day the very best of luck to you. :-D
For all those of you who who say the guest should not and could not breed without showing try this..You are a young mother and want a safe healthy pedigree puppy, you would like a rescue dog but are a bit scared to have what may be a problem dog at home with your children. You go to a well known breeder to buy your puppy and they say " I have no litters at the moment but I sold a lovely bitch (second choice in the litter and not able to run it on) to a young person who took my advice on the stud dog to use and bred a litter. They are lovely puppies, I helped with the whelping and will buy back the pick of the bitches. I can vouch for the temperaments and the line they come from is fault free shall I contact them for you"
Ok...the person with the puppies does not show the bitch, are you saying they should not have bred this litter? This is not a backyard breeder churning out second class puppies. People like this have a useful role to fill and if there were more of them there would be less trade for the puppy farmers. People used to call this 'going on breeding term' and it helped to insure that if you sold a puppy with your name on it to someone who wanted to breed the odd litter they would use the most suitable stud dogs and breed with the best guidance and advice.
Ps. not having a go at anyone :-) life is too short for that just trying to give a balanced resonable opinion :-(

if the guest does not want to show then fair enough,that dosent mean that the guest wont be able to produce quality puppies WITH the right knowledge & guideance,maybe some would be shown!!

alot of "joe public" seem to be put off going to show producers & if the guest intends to produce HEALTHY well bred labs of good temp then that is great! showing isnt the be all & end all for some people,surely you can love & care for your breed& want to strive  to attain good breed type without having to show! i agree that to do this the guest should have knowledge of the countries best dogs & gain knowlege of breed lines etc etc.,BUT it is possible to do this without showing yourself! at least she wont become involved in some of the bitching & backstabbing that happens in some breeds.

Everybody does have to start somewhere Reddoor. Unfortunately most, and it is most, start in Labradors. There are more Labradors bred each year than there are dogs bred in any GROUP. More even than the toy and Utility group put together. The end result of that is that the rescue kennels are full.

No breed would survive were it not for breeders, wild bred dog just do not exist in the UK but what is needed is people prepared to put time and effort into breeding the very best and only the very best. To breed anything but the very best and you are doing the breed a great disservice. I don't care whether you say they are for the pet market, show or work. Once you have sold the puppy you have no control over what happens to it or whether it is bred from and that includes when you put breeding restrictions on the puppy. These can, and frequently are removed WITHOUT THE BREEDER KNOWING! Therefore substandard dogs are being bred from every single day!

Regards, John

..very true John and I was in no way questioning your valued opinion, :-)  but if someone is determined to breed a certain breed (even if there are deemed to be too many of them already)  it is good surely that they seek out all possible information from the best breeders weather they intend to show or not, I am sure you agree they need to be encouraged to do the thing properly if they are going to do it at all. If you say to someone 'there are too many of that breed already don't breed anymore' it won't stop them going away and doing it with or without your help. The rescue kennels are NOT filled by those who care and have bothered to learn but by those who don't, those who let their bitches get mated and puppy farmers. I am not arguing about if someone should or should not breed but the fact that some people seem to think you have to show to breed and that everyone who expresses an interest in breeding a litters without wanting to show is going to churn out second rate puppies by the dozen. When I say that is 'a splendid idea' to the guest I don't mean because the guest is going to breed YET MORE labs but 'thank goodness, someone who loves dogs, cares about health issues and is prepared to ask'  :-) I would hate to think that those who wish to gain the enjoyment I have gained from dogs are denied the pleasure of doing so by being classed along with the people who were responsible for filling the rescue centres. Someone once took the time to train me and give me a start... :-(

" Someone once took the time to train me and give me a start...  "
Our point exactly!!  YOU didn't buy a property with kennels and start breeding puppies to sell.  YOU ......

...no Val but the person who gave me a start did..she was very very rich and did not breed to sell ...and who mentioned breeding to sell? The guest didn't, for all we know the guest will keep them all :-)

One litter and her kennels will be full then! :rolleyes:

why ? ..the first kennel I worked in had 95 Airdales and Lakelands all very well cared for by a team of kennelmaids. All the dogs were l loved and wanted by their owner who never married and was 'something big in industry'. The dogs were her hobby,her family and her obsession. Not saying everyone should have that many though :-)

Well guest, it's your lucky day!  Now you've found reddoor, there's nothing to hold you back!  Good luck with your new project.

There is always some very well-meant advice on these boards trying to dissuade people from breeding. I certainly wont argue with it, but I do get the feeling that the people that are most likely to be put off are the ones that would have tried their best to do a good job. Unfortunately I think that the idiots and the unscruplous (and I'm NOT directing these remarks at the Guest) are the least likely to take notice! :-(

here here Havoc.. the idiots ...those are the very ones who would not bother seeking advice from this site at all :-D

I don't think that we generally try to dissuade people from breeding Havoc, but we do try to encourage them to learn first, and that can take many years to "know" the dogs in your bitch's pedigree so that they are not just a collection of names.  Any breeder with the interest of their breed at heart will encourage newcomers if they are genuinely interested and don't just want to produce puppies.  But the best way to glean information is from as many experienced breeders as possible.  This can be from the show scene, obedience, agility or working dogs, in which ever field your specific interest lies.  It cannot be done by reading books or the internet.
Those of us who have worked with dogs for years have met too many dogs, bred by well-meaning people who love dogs and have a litter.  The pups they produce are sold to nice family homes, who then have to live with expensive Vets' bills, and these days Behaviourists bills as well as the upset involved for the next 12 years or so.  It's a situation where "doing one's best" without sufficient knowledge just isn't good enough.

Editted to say I have just had a call from a man who has an 11 week old bitch puppy and wants a dog to mate to it later.  As you might guess, it won't be one of mine!!

O.k. Reddoor I may be wrong - Buying kennels a brood bitch and breeding Labradors may in fact be " a splendid idea".

After all - without actually showing the dogs herself the guest will  of course have the incentive to get up at the crack of dawn to attend all the Championship shows.

Without actually showing the dogs she will of course get to meet the knowledgeable people who can act as her breed mentor.

Without actually showing her stock and getting many expert opinions on their quality she will of course know that they are excellent specimens.

Oh and I'm sure that she'll be quite prepared to wait for the years it takes to gain the kind of knowledge that she'll need BEFORE breeding.

You probably do have more experience in breeding than I do after all over 90 dogs at any one time is breeding on a MEGA scale.

I have only bred a few litters but using the expertise and hard work from previous excellent breeders have been fortunate enough to have bred 3 Champions - I have also stopped breeding when the breed had health problems and have imported healthy lines to improve the stock in this country.

I do not pretend to be an expert - in dogs you never stop learning - but I think that people need to think about why they want to breed  - just because "I love Labradors" is not enough !

Grondemod... taking things out of context serves no purpose..if you took the trouble to read the posts you would see that I thought it 'splendid' that a 23 year old was taking breeding seriously and bothering to find things out first. The guest does not have to show to attend dog shows and learn . Just because someone shows dogs it does not mean they have more right to breed or know more about a breed than a person who does not show.
What is it with some people on this site? They are negative in their outlook and go out of their way to be unpleasant, if that is how show people behave and treat new people I would not recommend anyone joins them.

No, not negative reddoor, responsible is the word that you are looking for, and trying to encourage newcomers to go about breeding in the right way.

Well there seem to be lots of posts but lets look at the facts shall we.
Buy a property with kennels or build kennels.
Buy a bitch.
Breed that bitch.
Make a living.

Nonsense isn't it. We would be wrong to pretend otherwise.

Buy your bitch by all means.
Show or work her.
Spend about or at least 10 years learning about the breed.
Then buy a really decent bitch.
And use your knowledge to put her to a suitable stud.
Spend a fortune on raising the litter.
Keep one back to extend your stock.
And you are on you way to your dream.
Mind you will never make a profit.

Nice and clearly put Jackie, in plain English that everyone can understand.

deleted due to hitting post button too soon!  Sorry :o

I may be being pedantic, but the Guest doesn't say anything at all about making a living from breeding.  Whatever one's opinions on the rights or wrongs of what the guest proposes to do, it really isn't fair to draw the conclusion from the information they provided that the guest believes they can, or assumes they will, make a living from breeding. 

Just my opinion :)

Lesley

When I was looking for a pup I went first to a show kennel, thinking like most of you here that was where I would get a good, well bred pup from and the owners would be knowledgble about the breed. BIG mistake!
Unsocialised, nervous pups, not very clean either (owner too busy showing to spend much time with pups). They may have had the correct proportions, shape of eye, position of shoulder etc but not caringly reared pups. I therefore get so fed up of hearing about the best people to breed are those who show, because that certainly is not my experience and I know many others who have had similar experiences.
However I know this is not always the case.
A good foundation bitch from a sound line is certainly possible to find and I am sure the guest would be better to find that person prepared to give her a start if she looks for a well established,succesful, experienced breeder who has already gained a good reputation. I find those 'experts' who think no-one else should breed are the less experienced and worried about their reputations (which is totally understandable)
Amos

 

wow, a lot of debate here.  i would never claim to be a breeder or even an expert (there seems to be enough of them here),  but there are some important things to know about breeding.  the poster here wants to know some things about breeding.  instead of chastising her, why not let her in on some valuable info.  i think reddoor has a valid point here.  i also see the other poster's points.  however, in actuallity, this original poster is asking for advise.  give it to her, don't make her feel badly about her idea.

<<there seems to be enough of them here>>

Why do you always have to make snide remarks Shelterdog? You do not endear yourself to anyone. Your comments may be valid, snide comments never are.

John 

....No No Shelterdog :-)  let's not encourage people who ask for advice, lets tell them there are too many dogs already, you can't breed dogs unless you are going to show them, if you do breed you must have spent 10 years learning about the breed first and memorising all the bloodlines (no sorry having owned one of the breed for years does not count) .Don't read about the breed in books or on the internet that does not count either. You can only get you information first hand from the knowledgable people who show and won't sell you a puppy to start you off in case you might breed puppies and keep them all for yourself..or sell any to people who want a well bred healthy puppy, this makes you a backyard breeder. It's best not to breed at all, get a rescue dog but if you want a puppy go to a puppy farm and buy a sick puppy cos the vets bills on that will be less than those on breeding a litter. Sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear, tut tut  having a house in the country and wanting to buy a well bred bitch with no health problems and breed a couple of litters just is not good enough if you are not going to show the dogs!!
Does this sound silly??
Unfortunately some people here are of the opinion this is not silly. The law of supply and demand means nothing to them. They fail to realise if the public want to buy a puppy they will do just that and if there are not enough puppies around to buy from caring breeders they will go to the pet shop or  puppy farm. Well done you show people..let's not help anyone to breed healthy non show dogs, let's all promote the puppy farms and fill the dog shelters!!!! :-(  :-(