I was amazed, and disgusted, on Saturday when I watched the Juniors. The judge asked the kids to 'show their bite'. Is this a normal thing to ask? Surely you get asked to show their TEETH not the BITE. I almost felt like saying to the judge 'are you willing to put your hand in to see if the bite is correct?' ;)

I know some of these kids were only starting out as they were 6 years old, but i feel that the judge should get things right. The steward was as amazed as we were.

I also don't see how a judge can place a handler who lets the dog pace. Surely this is bad handling. And bad judging.

I feel sorry for these kids. It's a long time since my daughter was a junior handler (she's now 22) but she would have been penalised. Have things cganged so much over the years, or did this judge just not have a clue?

the word "bite" is the correct terminology for the dogs teeth, have you heard of a "scissor bite" ?  that is the correct "bite", when you check a dogs "bite" you are checking it is not undershot or overshot not how hard it can bite you .  I used to do junior handeling about 15 years ago and I dont think I was ever asked to show the dogs bite, usually its just teeth but bite is a phrase that juniors should learn :)

In GSD's you are asked to show the bite(ie the front teeth)& then asked for the teeth(the rest of the teeth)

In most breeds the judge usually looks themselves-something I dislike from a hygene point of view as few judges wipe their hands in between dogs

Most breed standards call for a certain type of "bite"level, scissor, reserve cissor etc

Are you objecting to the word bite ?

when i teach juniors they are taught both to show the bite and also to show the teeth,
as some judges use both words, yesterday i was at a show and the judge asked to see the bite on my rottie i knew what she meant she wanted to see the  front part of my dogs teeth to see if he was under shot over shot etc,
also with regard to pacing the juniors are being judged not the dogs, though the junior should of stopped the dog pacing and restarted her dog again, there are many things juniors have to learn not just the golden rule,so if they where very young and the only thing they did wrong was let a dog pace the judge probely over looked it.
Carol

What is pacing ?

Pacing is where the dog moves both legs on the same side forward at the same time, rather than the correct trot, with opposite legs moving. It leads to an ugly, rolling action.
:)

I see :)  Its been a while since I have showed, I should be starting ring craft next week with my new pup so it will be quite strange :)

ok...The bite is ONLY the bite...in other words frount of mouth...the teeth is ALL the teeth

With putting up a handler who lets there dog pace makes me think this judge was judging "Jackie Hurly" style which is dog = well behaved and easy, everything done quick, lead stung up, tight corners????

This judge was judging to their handling...who was it?   Would be interesting!!!

If I ask a junior to show the bite that is what I expect to be shown, if I ask the junior to indicate the dogs withers that is what I would expect them to do. I am testing the handler's knowledge of the dog, I have never asked how many teeth but I have heard it asked of a junior. The handler may have said to the judge my dog was pacing may I go again, and the judge said no. If the dog paced every time it was moved the rest of the class may well have had even worse or more numerous faults that meant the handler placed first was the best of a poor bunch. My personal pet hate is being run over and a handler performing some sort of tribal dance instead of calmly moving to one side of the other to remain out of my sight line. As a matter of interest it is not the place of the steward to look amazed, in fact it is very bad form. The judge will place as they see fit and I expect they would have been able to tell you why they placed as they did had you   asked.

I agree.  If the handler asked the judge if they could move them again then this shows the handler's knowledge i.e. that their dog is gaiting incorrectly.  As a handling judge I would reward this handler over the handler that has not noticed their dog's incorrect movement.  As for the steward, in my view, they are to be in the background, and only intervene when necessary or when asked to by the judge.

The judge should write in his critique (if they do bother to write one!) his assesment of such a situation i.e. did the handler act correctly by moving the dog again or was it indeed the handler's fault the dog was pacing in the first place!

Flyte

I do know the difference between 'bite' and 'teeth'. My daughter showed very well when she was younger. In fact she won almost every time she showed. Mainly, I think, because she was showing a very contrary Munsterlander bitch at the time.

What I was objecting to was the judge asking to see the bite. Why only the bite? My breed has a scissor bite and I would expect the handler to know this. Even the stewards (one of whom judges at cc level) was surprised. Maybe it's because we are asked to see the teeth every time. I've never been asked to show the bite.

I agree that the handler is being judged. What I didn't like there was the fact that other Juniors had moved the dogs correctly, but didn't get placed. A pacing dog is the handlers fault, not the dogs. The judge should have penalised the handler. It looked from the ringside that the judge was judging the dogs construction, not the childs handling.

The steward was a very good acquaintance, who spoke after judging was finished, and probably shouldn't have said anything. I was just very surprised.

I do take other points and understand. I've just never seen it done like this before.

As the judge was judging the handling and not the exhibit it would not matter if the teeth were looked at or not, the judge was checking that the handler knew the difference between showing the bite and showing the teeth. Not all breeds show teeth and some have such poor mouths I don't think they are looked at at all but all handlers should know the difference between the two requests, and I would guess this is what the judge was doing. Have done it myself because as most the time that is all we show in my breed I have to make a conscious effort to ask for the teeth to be shown. Yes, I know, when judging I should always be conscious :)

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm not actually objecting to the wording used by the judge. I'm just puzzled that they were asked about the 'bite'. I asked my daughter if she had ever been asked this and she said no. We have gundogs, so the correct bite is important, but I don't recall any 'teacher' trying to explain the differences between level, scissor, undershot or overshot bites. Do they teach these, or is it something you just learn?

Just slightly off topic, but how many of you could say how many teeth a dog has? That's something that comes up regularly.

I do feel that if a judge is going to judge juniors they should give them a decent chance, and JUDGE the handlers, not the dog.

42, and I only know that because I got asked it as a junior - and got it wrong :(  I admit I have always been asked to show teeth not bite, in your original post I assumed you didnt know what  a bite was.  I wasnt really taught by anyone "how" to show I just did what I watched others do so I wouldnt know if this is something that is taught.

From being in the junior handling circuit from age 6 to 15 I saw alot of judges who did seem to judge the dog not the handler, I also came accross judges who would place small kid with a big dog first even if the dog went like clock work.  And then there were the fair judges who could see that you had a awkward dog and placed you deservingly, and of course there were the ones who could see you had a awkward dog so didnt judge you on how you coped just threw you out

Different judges and different opinions I suppose.

The Junior Handling can be even more "nasty" than breed competiton.  I do the Junior Handling circuit, but I also do breed competetition, the main reason I do Junior Handling is for the experience.  But no matter what I say you still feel disapointed when you don't place. 

The last time I played in Junior Handling I feel I was cheated.  The dog in front of me was a Doberman and was handled by a 10 year old, this dog was trying to go for the dog in front, and was dragging his handler around.  We stopped and I got Penny set up in record time, the dog in front of me wouldn't stand and was barking.  All of a sudden the Dobie turned around and went for Penny, Penny naturally retaliated.  But I got her back under control and set up again, the Doberman was still lunging at her.  Well when the time came for judging, I wasn't placed at all, the handler who went Best Junior Handler was a 12 year old with a parti color Am. Cocker who was owned and trained by a professional breeder, the girl didn't even have to set her dog up.   I later learned that several judges, including the judge that placed Penny for Best of Group (I handled her), actually complained to the German judge for not placing me.  I am now training Tamino, and we will have a CAC show in Patras, Greece this July, I will play in Baby Class with Tamino, Open Class with Penny, and Junior Handling with Penny.  I do not expect to be placed in Junior Handling, but I believe I have a fair chance in Breed competition.

All in all I prefer breed competition to Junior Handling as it tends to be fairer.  But that's just my opinion.  I agree with you Blondbird.

Surely the whole point of the junior handling is that it is learning process for later on when they may compete in the breed ring. Every time a junior makes a mistake and is marked down for it in a class they learn by their mistake or should do.

I have to say that I have always referred to a dogs bite as exactly that.

In my opinion everything a judge asks of a junior, is to judge their ability to show their dog to its best advantage and to have total control at all times.

My daughter is the same age as yours and was one of the top juniors in her time, she was often asked various questions when handling, including points of the dog etc. She was also asked on many occasions to either show the dogs bite or its teeth, in a strong class how a junior does this can be the difference between placings, as many show the bite by holding their hand over the dogs nose and eyes.  The best way in my opinion to do this is to gently push the lips upwards from underneath whilst holding the dogs head steady with the other hand.  Wheareas showing a dogs teeth is done by showing one side of the mouth and  then the bite, then the other side of the mouth to give the judge an allround view.

She now judges Junior Handling including at championship shows and I have often heard her either ask for the bite or the teeth or indeed both.

I have to agree with your comment on pacing, that should definitely be marked down but maybe the juniors placed lower, committed worse faux pas in the judges opinion.

In my breed we quite often get asked to show the bite AND the teeth. the method of doing this varies according to what the judge wants to see. Continental judges are always keen to check for missing pre-molars and this is done bby lifting the lips each side of the mouth in turn. The bite is shown by lifting the front lips only. A pet hate of mine when judging Junior handling is to have my view of the mouth obscured by the handlers head as they try to show me the bite/teeth.

Pacing can sometimes be very difficult to stop even with an experienced handler - if a dog persists in doing it I turn them in a small circle before setting off or quickly nudge against one side as they are moving to break the stride.

Yvonne

I totally agree with you Yvonne as regards handlers obscuring your view by their heads, it niggles me too.  Thats the sort of thing that I mean by handlers learning by their mistakes, if the handler decides, after judging, to ask me why I placed them where I did, I point out their mistakes and hopefully they will correct them next time.

As regards pacing I also agree it is a difficult thing to correct even with experience, and any handler who attempted to correct it, whether successful or not, would be placed higher than one who didn't even notice their dog was doing it.

Mind I have had experienced handlers in breed rings, who have had not idea that their dog is pacing :-D

My daughter is 10 and has competed in junior handling classes (ince at champ level and once at open level).
I think to ask to see the 'bite' or the 'teeth' is just a way of judging the childs knowledge of dogs in general...not breed specific.If they do it right it shows they know what was meant by the question.It can also show a lot of lead control as many children will be at a loss of what to do with the lead when the hands are needed to show the teeth.
I do expect my daughter to correct the dog if he is pacing...after all she is training to become a show handler and hence should know how to recognise when the dog is pacing and then correct it.
My biggest niggle is when judges do not explain heir placings...preferably to the child on the day.To tell the child where they went wrong when handing out rossettes is to teach the child something and then hopefully the child can correct it in the future.
My daughter has done reasonably well at JH but would now rather show in breed classes...she has had many 1st and 2nd places with my boys at champ shows.But in JH she is often penalised for having a well trained free standing dog.She has competed before and been easily the best handler in the class and has shown the dog well answering what has been required of her...then to be placed down the line because the dog(esp.my oldest elk) makes it look as if hes doing everything for her.This is wrong...if she does what is required better that any one else she should be placed accordingly.I find stacked and breeds that are shown in a more exaggerated manner do better in JH.
She rarely does JH anymore since as I've said she prefers breed classes...the look on her face when she handled my Kas to his first champ show win was a picture...in fact she is training my 4 month old pup at the moment and will be in the ring with him in August...
Archer

Archer, you mention about how your daughter gets knocked for having an easy dog, yes this is VERY true under cetain judges, The reason being this:

A few years ago there was a very fashionable Style of handling, it was not to everyone's taste as it involved a well trained dog ("Robot") and everything to perfection (triangles with 3 sharp turns etc) that was not always possible to get with a large breed (I'm not saying we should have no good corners, but dogs should be kept moving)  This was the case but now judges are away from this style and like to see a handler, handle their dog, not having a dog that looks like it does it all by itself!!!

Many time I have gone into the ring and been knocked for having a easy dog, and the same goes for having a fidgity dog!  I know know what most judges like and will watch the younger class before decding which dog I shall take in the ring!

Myself when judging would give a higher place to the handler who had the harder dog ASLONG as they controlled the dog and didn't get worked up....a fidgity dog will show a good handler as they will know when its moved and calmy put feet back etc!

I will always remeber one show (only exeption) when I was hadling on of my setters in a ring full off hourse poo, well I was about 7 (been handling for 3-4 years then) and I went in the ring with a dog who was only interesting in how much poo she could eat....The judge could see I knew how to handle and was impressed at how i kept at it and didn't get flusterd, she placed me 1st, 2 girls then came up to the judge (they got 2nd and 3rd) saying how misbehaved my dog was and I shouldn't be showing, let alone winning....the thing is the judge could see I was a good handler with a hard dog and i had to handle....not walk around witha  dog that knew everything!!!!!

I can see why your daughter wants to handle in the breed more, I myself have done since I am not a fan of Ts, and Ls etc but still can do them!

I agree with you Rox.  I don't have a problem when a kid who knows how to handle better than me is placed over me, I just watch and learn. :)  But when an obviously inept handler is placed higher than me, that's what makes me mad.

Archer, I think the reason that judges tend to put stacked breeds up more than free standing is that they think that it involves more work.  I know this is not true, as I am now training for the ring a breed (Swedish Vallhund) that is aways either free stood or baited.  But my Gordon can be balky in the ring, and when a 33 kg dog decides to be balky on a thin lead, it needs skill to handle, she doesn't self stock and I always set her up.  I believe that is what the judges think.

it is a normal thing to ask  i maen judges test children my age (10)on wat they know about showing i was astonished at the judge asking that i did wat i knew and got first place so yes it is normal.
the handeling dosen't just count on one thing that handler could have done alot other good things wich count moore.and things have changed alot not just over the years but over the months.
                                                 hope that answer your questions
                                                                              hilarybrenn