If you knew your dog carried a receesive gene for a physical problem, which has no DNA test for, that could be life threatening would you still breed from that dog. ?

I have a dog that I know at the very least carries such a gene & I am NOT considering breeding from him as there is no way of knowing whether he might still develop the problem & so have two recessives making all his offspring carriers/sufferers depending on the genetic make up of the bitch.& no way of knowing whether the bitch carries such a gene.

But others I know have breed from such a dog so what are your thoughts ?

When we bought obi, we agreed with the breeder that if he turned out as good as she hoped/expected we would use him to sire at least one litter.  He is a stunning dog, has followed the breed standard to the letter, has a super temperament and is showing good working possibilities.  Unfortunately he has elbow dysplasia, as has at least one of his litter mates, discovered when he was 6 months old.  The moment we knew it was obvious that he could never be used, regardless of all his good points, there is no DNA test for ED, and it is still not known exactly how it is inherited, other than that it is genetic.  I would think a breeder very reckless if they were to knowingly used an affected dog or bitch, and would even consider someone who does not test for known problems in the breed to be reckless also.

Well said,sandra.

I know what you are talking about one of mine has an affected greandfather and i will not be breeding from her ....the trouble is many of these dogs ARE still being used at stud and bitches being bred from ...I can only speak for myself here as Claire says we should outcross to clear lines but WHATS CLEAR.... until more people are honest. apart from those we know about where do we go from here ???

The trouble is, how do you know your dog carries a recessive gene? Just as in human families not all brothers and sisters inherit a genetic condition, not all puppies in a litter will inherit the same problem. A person with Cystic Fibrosis, for example, can have a full sibling who doesn't carry the gene at all. It is undenialy wrong to breed from an animal with a serious hereditary condition, but how far should one consider 'associated risk'? There is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

My ED specialist has done a lot of research into ED, and feels that if 3 generations of a line are elbow scored, and there are any positive results, you can be almost sure that these genes are being carried by this line.  The ED is not carried by a single gene but a combination of genes (polygenic?) so it is really a bit of pot luck as to whether any of the pups are affected (a lot of research is currently ongoing).  Even if Obi had not been affected by ED, but we had known his brother was, we would have known the gens were in there somewhere, and what was to say Obi would not have thrown ED pups, something we would not want to be responsible.  Our breed has a very small gene pool in this country so it would be unforgiveable to take any chances, perhaps in a larger gen pool it would be possible, but I'm not sure.
Not sure how much sense that makes as I am still just getting to grips with it myself, all I know is that I wouldn't want to go through this again, or want anyone else to either.......

A major problem arises with conditions such as epilepsy. This is a condition, undeniably distressing, where the owner invariably suffers more than the dog. It seems likely to be an inherited condition, but it is by no means clear how. Animals can be unaffected for several generations, and then an afflicted animal will pop up. What does one do? Is it chance (after all, everyone is capable of suffering epileptic fits, it's just that most people's (and dogs') threshold is too high) or should we ban breeding from the rest of the litter? It goes without saying that affected animals should not be bred from.

Also I beleive that epilepsy is a fairly common condition in all dogs, and is only considered to be a breed specific suspected hereditary conditon if it crops up more often than in the general dog population.,

My freind has an epileptic son, and he is the only one affected out of 7 children, and none of the grandchildren thus far have it, and there are over 20 of them.

This is such a difficult problem - as you say Epilepsy is endemic in some lines and you are totally reliant on honesty on the breeders part. Where breeds have fairly small gene pool and one stud dog has dominated the breed if he then turns out to be carrier of a genetic fault it can be devastating to the breed and take YEARS to try and get clear lines established.

The problem is made worse because some conditions don't show themselves until the dog is around two years old and he may well have been used by then. There is also the dilemma of throwing the 'baby out with the bath water' - do you sacrifice everything else to eradicate a health problem ? for some breeders it can mean starting again after years of work in establishing type,temperament etc. I really don't know what the answer is here - for me personally - having lived with an epileptic dog - health would have to come first but I am realistic to know that we cannot eradicate all genetic health problems and that unless a dog is also a 'good' example of his breed he will not be used for breeding even if he is completely clear !.

Yvonne W

Unless the dog has two affected parents, or has produced affected offspring there is no way to know (with most conditions that are inherited in the classic autosmal recessive manner) whether it is a carrier.  Removiong too may dogs from the gene pool can in fact have a more detrimental effect on the breed than careful use and monitoring of the offspring of dogs that are associated with a problem, but not proven carriers or affected themselves.

I feel along the same lines as J/G & B/Less, it`s knowing who the carriers are & until a reliable test comes along we have no way of knowing this. Careful breeding, knowing ancestors/pedigrees & breeders being honest, which I believe a lot are is all we have for the time being. Of course not breeding from affected dogs goes without saying, but like the others have said sometimes this has already happened before the disease showed itself. But if we stopped breeding from dogs that *might* be carriers soon we`d end up with nothing. It`s a calculated risk but if it`s not taken then the good will be discarded with the bad.

Christine, Spain.

My dog is a carrier as his father had the condition & had to be PTS due the acute pain he is was in & there is no cure. It is not conjecture I only wish it was.
I am a geneticist & I do know about modes of inheritance, Inca knows what condition I am writing of. The problem with this particular condition is that it may not manifest any symptoms until the age of three or later(much less common over three)
So as his mother more than likely will have a line to a carrier or affected dog(as do all dogs in the breed) she could be a carrier which means he could have genes from both parents only time will tell, but he is a carrier

So this is why I asked the question not if you know in that the dog MIGHT have a recessive gene but if you KNOW that your dog does carry the gene( that it is 100 % certain it does)

Brainless - a dog only has to have ONE affected parent for ALL its offspring to be carriers (if it's caused by a recessive gene). I do agree with not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but it depends on the severity of the condition, the available breeding options etc. etc. Having owned 4 champions who were NOT bred from because of an hereditary condition, you can see what my answer to Moonmaiden would be.

Hi Moonmaiden

I have no idea which condition you are talking about so my answer may not make sense.

If it is a common condition in your breed and generally manifests itself at around three is there any move in the breed to not reproduce until at least that age.  Is anyone researching it to see if a test can be created? 

The condition my dog carries is Syringomyelia & can manifest from under 6 months upwards & to varying degrees

There is research being done, my dogs have had excess blood samples sent to the researchers

The current guidence for breeding is not to breed from dogs/bitches under two & a half & if you want to line breed do it only on one side of the pedigree which a lot of people including pure pet owners & first time breeders totally ignore it & line breed on both sides of the pedigree

Hi M/M :) in that case the answer is no I wouldn`t.

Christine, Spain.

It's a pity most people in the breed don't Christine & they also do not mention it to buyers either on the whole

A difficult problem to breed out until a definitive test is found especially if it is caused by more than one recessive gene.  How on earth can you find "Clears" with a problem like this as looking though some of the information on it with dogs maybe not being clinically affected until they are ten - rhetorical question.

You have a similar - but more painful - problem as we do with DCM in Dobes.  We know it happens too frequently and there is always reseach going on into the problem but there is still no way of knowing the real causes and how to breed away from them.  By the time a dog (or bitch) dies of DCM it may have a lot of offspring  - the majority who have no problems and post mortems are rarely done to the degree needed to get the detailed information required to really know the cause of death or whether a dog has the problem.

Hi I think the info you have passed on here has been spot on .... very difficult to know what to do or WHERE to go when breeding , although we are aware of certain lines having bigger problems than others . outcross has been advised to break down the gene but many breeders feel they will not produce the show puppy for next year by bringing in new breeding lines . now me I want the health of our lovely breed to continue and have just done an total outcross breeding and had 3 most super bitches who  I hope will carry good clear lines in the future....as i said in PM one of my other girls will not be bred from due to SM in the lines a real shame probably my best bitch here....

I had a similar dillemma several years ago. In Danes there is a condition called Cental Core Myopathy. It is not widely known about and only affects Fawns and Brindles and Ridgebacks, why nobody knows, and I doubt a lot of breeders have ever heard of it and would probably say it was Wobblers. I only found out because I thought my fawn girl Tula had it and was put in touch through a very knowledgeable person in the breed, with Mike Target who was researching the disease. It is a muscle wasting disease and the longest living known dog was 18 months old. My girl was tested and luckily cleared but there is no way of testing to see where it comes from or if her sister carried it the only clue was that in her pedigree there where some dogs that appeared in the pedigrees of affect dogs but this did not necessarily mean they were carriers. If my Tula had had it no way would I have breed from her sister.