Perhaps all you experienced Dobermann owners/breeders can tell me why, if the breed is considered as "the premier personal protection dog" (as Carrie said in one of her posts); that we don't see more of them in the armed forces, police force, working trials, schutzhund, security work, personal protection dog etc in the UK?  Especially as they appear to be gifted with "the uncanny ability to discern between a stranger who has business here and one who does not" (again posted by Carrie).

I am puzzled, because I would have thought that if a breed exhibited these outstanding qualities that make it apparently superior to others it would be used in preference to GSDs, BSDs or Rottweilers etc in this field.

Curious.

In the States Dobes are used as Police dogs, and also guide dogs!  Here in the UK, they are not so popular, probably because they are not subservient dogs such as the GSD.  There are plenty competing in Schutzhund too, its getting very common.  Dobes are very intelligent dogs and do have a knack of knowing a bit too much.  I once watched a Dobe doing man work, the guy wore a sleeve, the dog bit the leg!  The guy wore a body suit, the dog went for his head and hands.  I know that a few police handlers have noted similar traits, so for training or demo purposes they are not always reliable.

Its worth noting the tracking record is held by a Dobermann.
Dawn.

I have seen very few Dobes competing in Schutzhund competitions, how many are qualified to Sch l, ll, lll in the country?

Any dog that goes for anything other than the sleeve is obviously inadequately trained and not reliable enough to use in competition, especially in Working Trials where, unlike Schutzhund or Mondioring, full bite suits or even scratchpants are not necessarily worn and so any dog behaving in this manner would be deemed unsafe and not allowed to continue.  Doesn't make them too popular with the "crims" either

There are even fewer in Working Trials, less than 5 at last count I think.

What tracking record in what discipline does the Dobermann hold?

As I said, too intelligent to be bullied!
Dawn.

Sorry Dawn I do not understand your reply.  Not currently aware of any dogs of any breed being "bullied" in competition or training.  TO be successful in competition dogs need to "want" to do it.

Sounds like they "want" to do it a little bit too much! ;-)

Just as an aside

Back in the 80's there was a border collie working in Schutzhund in Germany, he represented Germeany in international competitions & was regularly the best dogs not only in the ScH H III classes but also qualified IPO

My friend Petra is one of the top women trainers in Germany & it was her Collie, who was also a breed champion as well. Petra now has GSD's & has judged over here in the UK at the Schutzhund nationals

I have asked her about dogs biting the wrong places in training-considered a bad fault & not a quality to be encouraged-real life situations are different to training & one must have control of a manwork trained dog at all times, so having a dog that bites against training is a problem

There are lots of breeds who compete in schutzhund; there is one world championships for GSDs only and another for all "other breeds".  THere is no reason why any breed cannot compete in schutzhund or working trials etc. 

But when Fun was competing he was the ONLY other breed to represent Germany all the other dogs competing were GSD's, since then the other breeds have become marginally more popular

It was quite funny to see the line ups all GSD's & one lttlle B&W BC at the top. He certainly changed the schutzhund people's view of the BC in Germany

How long have you been doing Schutzhund Tohme ?

I don't compete, my weimaraner bitch was the first of the breed to obtain a BH in the UK which was my aim.  I prefer the tracking style I use for Working Trials rather than that demanded by Schutzhund and am not prepared to train both methods.  I also find Schutzhund too prescriptive in that the obedience round, manwork round and the track patterns are always exactly the same; I prefer the variety found in Working Trials and the tracking is more demanding, Schutzhund only has a maximum of 7 legs whereas WT ticket can be up to 27 legs and the articles are smaller, the terrain generally more challenging and obviously aged more.

IPO competitions are few and far between in the UK and if judged by certain judges like Petra, means only GSDs can enter.

However although the test is simple it is marked extremely hard and I like the public critique that is delivered so that the marking is transparent and the fact that all helpers judges and tracklayers have to be licensed unlike Working Trials.

Petra judged 2002 at southern Schutzhund Club & last year she judged the nationals as far as I know it was Schutzhund I to III & not restricted to GSDs

I don't particularly like Schutzhund but I do prefer the jumps to WT

I admire the control they have, off means off unlike some PD dogs & services dogs. I did admire the Late Terry Hadley who I saw work frequently when I was doing WT way back I the late 70's

I used to have two GSD's trained up to Schutzhund III level, but as there were no Schutzhund clubs in the UK then they never got to work other than when I trained with some Met Handlers & on the one occassion that I needed their protection they were there for me when some one attempted to mug me, they never broke the guys skin nor left a mark, but I don't think he would ever try it again

Yes Petra judged at South Valley and in the Schutzhund competitions it did not matter what breed but it did for IWQ.

The level control exercised over any dog in any discipline is entirely down to training and so even dogs competing in schutzhund will (and have been when I have been spectating) be "excused" for lack of control.

It is quite possible of course to train any dog to any standard in any discipline without actually competing  or qualifying :D

That's why I opted not to do competitive WT with my GSDs they had the PD manwork but I saw so many dogs not release on command & still qualify that I was concerned over the amount of control the handlers actually had-might be better down some 20+ years down the line

I did not like the scale either for my GSD's My BC bitch was ok as she was small & light & got to WDex before we went back into obedience, wow that makes me feel old as it was in the early 70's

Hi Tohme

I believe Dobermanns are the only breed specifically designed (traits originally chosen and bred in) as a personal protection dog.  Most others are hunters, herding dogs or lap dogs.

They are not the easiest breed to train and are inclined to think for themselves.  I always say that most of them are very intelligent but they use it for their own purposes - not for their owners.  When they have had enough it is very difficult to get them "switched on" again to work unlike most collies and GSD's.

When they first came into the UK there were some that could not be controlled by "normal" pet owners and these mostly went into the police force but I don't know of any in the UK forces today - I was told that their short coats count against them.

More owners are starting to take up the various sports, especially with the influx of the more European lines over the last few years.  There is (was?) one Sch III, a few Sch or IPO I's, and a few that have or are working towards their BH.

I don't know that mine have the ability to discern who has business here and who does not but they have surprised me on occasion with their reactions to certain visitors.

"I believe Dobermanns are the only breed specifically designed (traits originally chosen and bred in) as a personal protection dog.  Most others are hunters, herding dogs or lap dogs."

True....Many, including the GSD are bred to protect livestock. They are protective too of their families....wonderful dogs. I would have gotten another, but am sick of vacuuming dog hair. But the Doberman was bred specifically and exclusively for protecting it's person or family. That's it...no other job. Of course, they're used for other things too now a days.

Here's a good description of them. sorry I don't know how to make it directly

clickable.http://www.silverdobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECTemperament.html

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/doberman.htm

here's another-----  http://www.dpca.org/Temperament.html

And originally they were bred very "sharp" as the Germans refer to it. Louis Dobermann was a tax collector and he came across some irate people I guess so wanted a dog to protect him. He bred a very aggressive dog. That's how they got started. They've changed quite a bit since then. They have been bred to be more mellow in the U.S. anyhow. The Germans think we've ruined them by making them too "soft." We say, "no." They still have the working ability. And they're so much improved as a family dog, so much more stable now. They are not for everyone. They are a lot of work. They do need structure and need to know who's in charge, absolutely, positively without heavy handedness.

There were several used during the rescues in 911 in N.Y. But I too have read that because of their coats, they can't take the extreme cold or heat which is a drawback in some places. I don't really know anything much about why they don't use them more. I never heard of them biting in the wrong places. But that could be. They do think for themselves and if they think they're suppose to take someone down, a bad guy, they will take them down. They will not back down except on command from their handler. They are known to be quite fearless. There are  a lot of badly bred ones so one has to be careful. They're getting better but were very popular here in the 70s and at that time there were a lot of backyard breeders ruining them and their reputation.

They are extremely fast and atheletic, agile, strong. They have greyhound in their make up as well as several other breeds. (just as a matter of interest)

I find that Lyric is extremely trainable, catches on to things so quickly, I never saw something like it before with any of my dogs. He is willing and eager to "work." He can be stubborn about other things, behavioral things, but when he is in the "working" (training) mode, he's fantastic. He stares at me and I can see the wheels turning like, "Ok....got that, now what do you want me to do." LOL. He is up and on the go and could drive someone who just wants to relax a little nuts. He finally can be a couch potato when he's good and tired. But if he hears the slightest noise, he's up like a flash. He is also very protective of the Chihuahuas when we're out on walk. It's really cute how he watches out for them when other dogs are around them or if they lag behind. (he's not aggressive to other dogs, he just watches and stands close) That's now....he's only 10 months old. He actually seems to like every dog we meet.  He could get aggressive to male dogs later. They're often that way.

I am lovin' this breed.

Carrie

"They do think for themselves and if they think they're suppose to take someone down, a bad guy, they will take them down."

Oh dear Carrie that would make them extremely unreliable then; no wonder there are so very few who are successful in competition.  No one wants a dog to "go in" unless it is strictly on command.  So if they make that decision themselves it is no wonder so few people work them.

I can see now why people prefer to work more reliable breeds.

I didn't say they were unreliable. They're very obedient and trainable. My meaning was that if they are protecting their family....say from a rapist or whatever, they will attack and the bad guy can try to fend or scare the dog off and it won't work...unless he has a weapon of course. Are you questioning the attributes of a Doberman Pinscher? Don't waste your time.

Is my writing really that bad that I am not communicating what I mean? Oh dear.

Hmmm GSDs, Rotts, BSDs, Collies,Boxers, mongrels etc will all protect their family if correctly trained so the Dobermann is no different in this respect than many other breeds is it. 

I am of course questioning the attributes of the Dobermann; that was my original post which was why, if they have such great qualities, are they not seen at the same level of competition or in the same occupations as other dogs of the working/pastoral breeds. 

Why would this question be a waste of time?

You can do your own research if you're interested. I am not very interested in all that as my Dobe is my family dog. 

As far as asking or challenging me about their attributes, I am not the one to ask. I could go on and on about what it is I love about Doberman Pinschers. My posts are already too long, but if I wrote about this topic, I'd take up all the space of the whole Internet. They are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more than a personal protection dog. They are INTENSE in every way. Every wonderful thing I ever liked about any dog, loyalty, brains, trainability, obedient to a T, humor, affection, alertness...you can quadruple it more than once. They are VERY different than other breeds in very many ways.

I live in probably the lowest crime area you can imagine. I don't even lock my door when I leave or take my key out of my ignition when I go to the little store here. I have no need for a protective dog at all. I got a Doberman for their other attributes and as a bonus, the protection aspect. It is nice and comforting when I occasionally visit my kids in the big city of Seattle. But that was by no means my main objective for getting this breed.

Carrie

I was not asking or challenging you about the attributes of the Weimaraner Carrie, but the experienced owners and breeders on this forum.

All of us are fans of our own particular breeds; that is why we have them.

However some of us are interested in other breeds or in disciplines in which we participate and therefore are interested to know why some dogs are preferred in some areas over others. That is why, when I read your eulogy to the Dobermann, it prompted me to pose the question  with regard to its apparent lack of popularity amongst the services and serious competitors in the manwork disciplines.

dobies dont do anything for me personally but the late Paul galvin had an ob ch,that also won crufts.(sorry cant remeber its name but will look it up when i get home!!)
in obedience now you get the odd one or two in the lower classes but they dont seem to continue to the higher levels-although it is possible(see above comment!)

I am aware that there has been the odd champion in both WT and Obedience; I am just curious why they are not more popular especially in WT and Schutzhund/Ringsport/Mondioring etc at which one would have thought, being purpose bred, they would excel?

you would think so wouldnt you?? maybe because the average dobie owner has them for other reasons than competing?????
Carrie have you ever thought about competing in anything with your boy?? if not ,why? are you not interested in that sort of thing ? in the states i know alot more different breeds compete in the "sports" than over here in the uk,

Well, I do not know much about all that, as I said. In the process of researching the breed for a long time prior to getting this dog, I came across many breeders and their websites. When it came down to the breeder of my choice, I studied the pedigrees and the dogs in there. There appeared to be many, many titled dogs in Shutzhund, obedience and other things. I've seen lots of pictures. You can, if you're interested look up that information. There are record data bases I think on this plus the breeder's websites themselves. I know they've been used for search and rescue, tracking and guarding. They are considered and called a "PERSONAL" protection dog, more of an individual person or family. They cannot be left in a kennel alone. They NEED to be with their owner or family almost constantly. They need to develop a strong bond and good relationship with that one person or family.  That may be different than what they need for some of those other disciplines where it is less personal, IE: military or police work. I don't really know. Like I say, you'd have to check into it with someone or some source that knows more about that than I do.

Carrie

Hi Tohme

I don't think that Dobes (or any breeds other than GSD) were particularly welcome at many of the schutzhund clubs until the last few years, even three years ago I got told that my breed was not particularly welcome and to go and do something else instead although I know this club now accept Dobes.

I only know of three people in the UK working their Dobes in WT (two in Scotland and one in East Anglia) but there are at least a dozen that I can think of working in Schutzhund and I don't know them all.  In Obedience, at least in the south, there are only three of us.

Changing the subject I have a horrible feeling I am going to have to withdraw Maverick from competition as she seems unable to sit for long enough to get though the stays, it has become very obvious now that I am training her pup as well, as Toxic (11 weeks) will happily sit-stay for 30 seconds whereas her mum starts to rock - she is going to vet for check-up later this week to see if he can find a physical problem.

I think the reason that not many Dobes compete is that most people want to win, and to win they feel they have to have something (hairy) such as Collies, long coat GSD's or Goldens. 

Whilst I will defend my chosen breed I may not do it quite so enthusastically as Carrie as I am speaking from experience and know what hard work they can be to train at times, and how stubborn they can be when they decide to "switch off".:)

You are correct that many schutzhund clubs faint at the thought of any breed other than GSD turning up.  (Imagine what they thought when I turned up with a Grey Ghost) :D :D :D  However, the BSA has realised that if the sport is to grow in the UK they must welcome and encourage other breeds who show the correct aptitude.

Certainly everyone I know who used to try to work Dobermanns in Working Trials have now "defected" to other breeds :)  Although Yvonne is persevering.

The advent of the pet passport has also raised the agenda of working ability in a lot of "working/pastoral" breeds if the owners are looking to use foreign studs and to show abroad etc.

Hope that Maverick is ok; keep us posted.

Ob Ch Lady Gessler Of Bryan - don't need to look that one up it is imprinted on my memory. :D

John Fleet was obviously very successful with his Dobes in WT. Am I right these were Dutch bred Christine?

WT Ch Chaanrose Night Queen was English bred but did have some American G. Grandparents
WT Ch Jimarty's Citta born in the UK of Dutch parents
Jimarty's Fedor CDex, UDex, WDex TD CoM, PD CoM - Dutch parents full brother to Citta

The first Dobe WT Champion was Ulf v Margaretenhof - somewhat of a handful by the accounts I have read and the only other one I can think of is WT Ch Linrio Domingo.

Have any Dobes got a PDex, I can't remember if John's did or just a WT Ch with TDex.  Not seen him in years.

Not that I am aware of, J. Citta got it with CDex UDex WDex TDex and I don't know that he went beyond PD CoM with J. Fedor.

thank you keriok!!!!!!
do you knowof any others competing at novice or above at the moment??? iveonly seen them in the lower classes.

has any one seen that brilliant film where dobies are used to do a bank robbery? what was that called?

The Doberman Gang wasn't it?  Brill! :D

I expect Dobes are difficult to work in obedience because, like SH Weimaraners, they have no coat and are quite long

thank you i loved that film!!!!!

yes hair does help in obedience,asdoes afluffy tail!!!!

Hi Tohme

As far as I'm aware, the Dobermann is the only dog to have a military statue dedicated to the breed.  Dobes have been used in both world wars, particularly during the Second World War. In the 1914-1918 conflict the German military used them as patrol and guard dogs, and also as guide dogs for blinded army personnel. In the Second World War both the German and United States armies used them in war zones as far apart as Europe and the Pacific. They served as sentries, messengers, scouts, explored caves, detected mines and booby traps.

Not so very long ago, Darlington police force (UK, north east) operated a large number of dobes - however, they found they didn't perform well in the cold, so phased them out. They now use GSDs - and have found that their bite record has increased significantly.

Jo

could they not equip them with coats :D :D

They've probably blown the budget recompensing GSD bite victims. ;)

The Doberman Gang was the name of the movie I think you're talking about.

By the time I write my posts, they end up out of sync. So anyhow, the question about competition....I may be interested in agility becasue it's so cotton pickin fun! Or after we do that, I was thinking about that free style dancing to music. That looks so cool. In fact I showed Lyric some moves and he was into that big time. Other than that, I'm really not really into competition.

No, as far as being stubborn, I only notice that with puppy behavior brat stuff, not training specifically. He does tend to want to pull, even though he's been taught to walk nicely. So, maybe there is some over zealousness with him. If we are doing a tight heel, he's great, but when a casual lose leash, he sometimes forgets himself, not always, but at times when he really wants to go see something or someone.

But other than that, the obedience stuff he learns very quickly. In one 10 minute session I taught him to sit/stay while I hid out of sight. We don't have it up to a whole minute yet. But I can count to 60 and he'll stay. (not 60 seconds, but 60.....well, if it were music, the tempo would be called allegro.) LOL.

In 2 or 3 times of closing the door in his face, he learned to sit and wait in front of the door before I released him. I didn't hold his collar or tell him "no" or block him with my hand. When he started to barge ahead, I closed the door and said "wait." I only said, "wait" once. 2 or 3 times closing the door and he does it perfectly anytime, everytime. If he's bouncing around and getting too wild, all I have to do is say, "sit" and he does. Then we calm down. LOL. So, he is very willing to learn and please for the most part.

While I enthusastically praise the intense good qualities, I forgot to mention...mind you, that the intenseness goes with the "naughty" stuff too. LOL. All puppies are into everything and busy. You can quadruple that too with the Dobe pup. The energy and playfulness are way out there on the scale. They are very perky and entertaining.

Lyric can be stubborn about some of his pushy ways with my other dogs. He just wants to play, play, play and really can bother them sometimes. But he has improved vastly. He is also a major kitchen counter surfer. I have to remember to not have anything there that he'd like. He'll get things out of the laundry basket and gallop through my 924 sq.ft. house with a bra flying behind him like a wind sock.(especially embarrassing when there are male guests)  This was more when he was younger. He is getting much more civilized now. LOL. He has taught me a great deal more patience than I ever had before. You have to be patient. And you have to be creative so that in many cases, he thinks it was his idea, not mine. But you have to be firm too.

Carrie

Kerioaks Karillion and an Ikos dog that I cannot remember the name of are working in, I think, Novice and A

Here's a good article that talks about some of the things they're good at. The only thing I find that's different than what they say is that Lyric doesn't show any natural retrieving instinct. I'm teaching him, but it doesn't seem to come naturally. He does display terrific herding instincts and his nose goes on the ground like a blood hound.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/dobermans/

tohme, why on earth would you start a post such as this?  do you enjoy offending, challenging, and arguing with peope? 
a dobermann is a great breed.   it is different that other breeds for various reasons, just like all breeds are individual in their own way.  why would you question their competition status?  who cares?  they are a top breed for police tracking, military, rescue, searching.....etc......they are also a top dog for protecting a household.  not like a mongrel or "any breed", as you say.  unlike some of the breeds you listed, like mongrels, a dobermann doesn't need to be trained to protect and gaurd.  they do it on instinct.  no training necessary. 
anyhow we all have our favorite breeds or groups of dogs, a dobermann is a great breed, but not for everyone.  i guess they're not for you.

Elijah, I started this post because I wanted to know why the Dobermann is not used more frequently in the UK for "police tracking, military, rescue, searching  etc" if they are such a "top breed".  I fail to see why this request for information should offend anyone

I was under the impression that ALL breeds need correct training; gundog breeds need to have the correct training to hunt, point and retrieve, pastoral breeds to herd and working breeds to guard etc they do not pop out of the womb "ready" so to speak.  I have never met any breed of dog where the statement "no training necessary" could be applied!  Nor have I seen any evidence of it.

If the Dobermann was "my breed" I would have no need to ask any questions about them would I? 

No they are not for me; just as my great breed is not for everyone; thankfully the world is full of hundreds of breeds one of which is bound to suit an individual.

As far as protection...no, they absolutely do NOT need specialized protection training....only obedience or other specific training. If you read any of the links I put up, you would find out about that. If you're truly interested, then why not read some of these informative links? Then your inquiries or assumptions will be more on track. And you'll be more enlightened on the subject.

Carrie

Here....check out this link. It will explain about the famous devil dogs and there's a link to the touching memorial of the Doberman Pinscher breed who saved thousands of lives in wars. It's really quite interesting. There's a lot of info online. To be informed, you can type in just about anything that you're curious about. I remember reading about the devil dogs and seeing that memorial in my reading before I got Lyric.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1878/wardog.html

tohme, the tone of voice that you imply in your writing is one that is challenging and sarcastic sounding.  it is offensive to me, and others, im sure.  if you truely don't mean to sound this way, i am terribly sorry.  i apologize to you. 
oh, by the way, if you read my previous post correctly, you will see that i said a dobermann needs no training to show them how to protect their family.  of course they need to training to teach them to sit, stay, heel....etc.  they do not, however, need to be trained to protect.  that is what they are bred to do.  of course they do not come out the womb gaurding, however, as they grow into adulthood, you will see that they also grow into their "job" of protecting.  it is an inate trait.  my aunt has a dobermann puppy.  of course now, he wouldn't be brave enough, but in a year or so, he will protect her.  if someone "bad" comes into her house to harm her, her dobermann will gaurd her and attack her assailant.  he will not need to be trained to do that.

as carrie said, there are heaps of sites online that will talk about the dobermann's specific traits.  look there and you won't be so "puzzled". 

I believe all dogs that are going to be used as personal protection dogs need training as they need to be told when to bite and when to leave; that has been my experience with ALL dogs used for this purpose otherwise you how do you have control?  That is why there are specialised trainers and clubs designed for this very purpose.  After all using your analogy dogs "naturally" sit, stay etc do they not?  However we want them to do this when WE want them to, not when they feel like it; the same applies surely to "protection"?

Will your aunt's dobermann not need training to "stop" attacking?  Or will it do that "naturally"?

READ TOHME, READ. Stop and just READ.

Tracking??? Don't get me on that. Don't get me started on the terrorist attack on New York city. It's very personal to me. If you knew anything, you'd know about the Dobermans and Shepherds and others who saved many lives and dug up many bodies because of their tracking or searching abilities.

If you're so interested and puzzled as you claim, then R-E-A-D.

Carrie

And I don't give two sh*#s about your Shutzhund clubs and obedience trials. I personally think the real thing speaks for itself a whole hell of a lot more. You can READ about the history of this reletively new breed IF you really want to know anything about it.

Carrie