Dear All

Having suffered a bit of a relapse with Copper's behaviour problems, despite him doing very well at his obedience classes, it seems it goes a lot deeper.  I had the vet check him over and there is nothing at all physically wrong with him so I now have him at the Edinburgh vet school for their dog behaviour programme (on the vet's advice and for the record, the insurance is paying for this).

I know people are sceptical, but we had 2 hours with professionals that really seemed to know their stuff and one lady suggested that Copper's aggression to all dogs on contact was because he may have been "baited" when he was shown as a pup.  I'd never heard of this but apparently its common, especially in terriers, to get them wired up before they go into the show ring and they do this by getting them to go nose to nose with other dogs but not allowed to fight or bite.  I know that Cops won prizes as a pup and I know that he was kept crated and unsocialised and was then handed on and I'm inclined to think that he might have "learned" this behaviour as its not fear aggression or territory.

I don't show dogs, and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but does this baiting happen?   I would be grateful for any comments because my task now is to try and "un-learn" this trait and I'm trying to get as much information as possible so I can make as good a job of it as I can.

Thanks.

CG

I may be an absolute innocent = we've only shown for 4 years, and only Aussies - but to me, the term "baiting" means to give tidbits - liver cake, cheese, sausage etc........

Am I really so green?

Margot

Baiting normally refers to a dog looking for bait that the handler has in hand or pocket, and little titbits are fed to it.

I have certainly never seen dogs being deliberately faced off against each other, other than males would naturally be on their toes when near another male, and a canny handler would take advantage of the look that the dog has when pulled up to look it's best.

Again I have no real knowledge of the more fiery terrier breeds and whether this is common practice.

In my own breed in Scandinavia the males were often faced against each other to give that masculine pulled together look, and this would cause them to bark at each other.  From what I hear though this does not alter their nornmally affable tempers, but this would be frowned upon in the UK.

What kind of Terrier is Copper?

Thanks all, Copper is a border terrier and I don't have a lot of knowledge of his background (he's 5) except that he was a show pup and then had a few homes before he came to me.  My vet said that BTs are normally very easy tempered dogs (I wish :D)  It was suggested that his behaviour was like me meeting you and saying "hello" then slapping you in the face!  The lady at the vet school was American so maybe if any USA friends are reading this they might advise?

CG

Just a thought but have you tried finding out who bred Copper and contacting them for information as to his history.

If you have any of his details I would be willing to help you by advising who to contact.

Jayne

Re the breeder post, Lady, I do have his kennel name and the breeder name I think is on the certificate, but I wouldn't really like to say it was any of their fault, perhaps Cops was just a difficult dog?

CG

If there is a telephone number on there as well then I would certainly be inclined to ring them and ask their advice. If there isn't a phone number by all means pm me and I will try to get it for you.

I know if it was one of my pups I would want not only to know that he had found a good home after being passed about a bit, but that you were having some problems and be prepared to give you every advice I could. Honestly Border Terrier owners and breeders are probably the best people to help with your boy (not getting at any behaviourists) but all breeds are very different, with different problems and someone with in depth knowledge of that breed is far better in my opinion.

It may be that they don't want to know, unfortunately that can happen, but at least you won't have lost anything by trying.

Lady, I'm going to email you what I have of Cops, and you can tell me if you know of the line or breeder.  I have to say he's such a fantastic little dog apart from this wee problem of his and I'd do anything for him.

CG

If you want to email me cg, here is my address: jaynealpe@pipruda.fsnet.co.uk

This may be common in some terrier breeds in the show ring, but it is something that is not seen in the Border Terrier rings, in fact it is frowned upon for any dog to eyeball another one whilst showing. Neither are they wired up as you put it before going in the ring, in fact if you attend any Championship Show you will see each class waiting reasonably quietly together waiting to enter the ring.

When showing a Border Terrier they are mainly freestood and are required to stand with their attention firmly fixed on their handler, which gives a better outline for the judge.

Personally I think if your boy was caged a lot and not socialised as a puppy this is more relevant to his aggression, or it may well be that he has unfortunately come down from one of the few lines in Borders that show aggresive tendencies.

It is totally against the correct nature of a Border to be dog aggresive as they were bred to run with a pack of hounds and any aggresive tendencies were soon dealt with by the hounds!!!

Regards

Jayne

Thanks Lady, I do appreciate everyone's answers.  I was at Crufts this year for the first time on Terrier day and there were borders everywhere and none of them were being aggressive or anything, they were all gorgeous.  I'm just exploring all possibilities here to help me out.  I think that the cage thing didn't help and sometimes I just think he's a downright grumpy dog, which does happen I suppose and maybe at the end of the day we'll both have to live with it.

CG

Copper is very lucky to have found  a forever home with you CG. I admire your commitment to him and how you explore every avenue to improve his life. Sorry to hear you had a setback and hope the Dick vet can help get you back in the game. :)

Awwww, thanks!  He's just so gorgeous that no one can believe he's a nightmare!!  I'm totally committed as I think if I'm not, and give him away, who knows what might happen.  And that is not a chance I'm willing to take.  I'm sure it will all work out in the end.

CG

I personally think what you have described DOES sound like fear based aggression.

A happy, confident dog doesnt need to use aggression, but a fearful one will get in there first in a lot of situations to tell other dogs to 'back off'.....

The example you give, of a person saying hello and then smacking you int eh face, is exactly how i would describe my dog Rocky, when he is on a lead.

If Copper has been kept crated and undersocialised as a youngster, then taht could well be the grounds for dog to dog fear aggression.

He hasnt got the knowledge of other dogs body language, he isnt confident around them, and has he ever been attacked by another dog, or even just made to feel uncomfortable/threatened?

This can become a learned reaction, but until you remove the reason for the fear, you cant begin to 'unlearn' the reaction.

Hope that helps

Em

I wonder where that person got the idea that terriers were baited against each other for shows?  I've been going for a few years (both open shows and champ shows - UK) and never seen any of the terriers treated in this way, or any other breed.  As has been stated, the different terriers often wait together at the ring side without any trouble.  I have found some of the dogs (not going to mention any particular breed here ;) ) a bit unpredictable - but then not all the dogs are adequately socialised.  I have also met dogs at the shows who obviously hated it and the owners admitted this but "the dog was too good not to show" :rolleyes: 

At least Copper has you to help him adjust, he's a lucky dog.

I agree with Em.  Fear and lack of experience as a youngster.  I would never recommend obedience classes to any dog that wasn't completely confident and relaxed around other dogs.  We see lots of dogs here with varying degrees of aggression and our first priority is to see if we can get them mixing with other dogs off lead.  Most dogs that are aggressive towards other dogs will be that way because they are never given the opportunity to do it any differently.  They are kept on a lead, usually a tight one, they are told 'NO' and 'Leave it'  and checked by their owner.  Take all that away and in a carefully controlled environment with exceptionally wordly-wise dogs to  help them they can learn to do it properly. 

In my opinion the usual response to aggressive dogs on lead of aversion or punishment may make them behave on lead in the end but it will not help the dog to be okay around other dogs generally.  There are exceptions of course and there are dogs that will never mix.  I owned one myself for 15 years.  I wish you luck with Copper, I have to admit terriers are not the easiest. :)

Sally

My thanks to everyone here.  Would anyone mind at all if I printed off this post and took it with me to the University?  Of course, if anyone objects I won't do this and just take notes.  I really value everyone's opinions here and will let you know how I get on.

CG

No probs as far as im concerned!

Just thought id add, ive been to sh ows, once to see a friend who has a border terrier (hi Dawn B) and ive NEVER seen terriers being obnoxious or aggressive to each other..... although i did once witness a Scottie remove a long ribbon of hair off an Afghan that stood on him! (oops), and ive never heard of terriers being wound up by being faced off against other terriers before going into the ring.

Em

Possibly the aggression to other dogs is the reason he was moved on by his original owners in the first place.

The thing with terriers is that sometimes aggression to other dogs is through poor socialisation but sometimes its just due to psychopathic tendencies on the part of the dog! ;-)

Some working terriers are what I would call 'stupidly aggressive' (but their owners would call very game!) where the dog will attack its quarry with no regard to the size of the opponent or the punishment it is taking. Having met people from the working terrier world I have found that a few take great pride in just how aggressive there terriers are, and also how much 'damage' they have received whilst working.

Hi CG,

"Baiting" in the U.S. is the same as here - giving the dog yummy tidbits in the ring.  Many years ago terrier people would "spar" male terriers in the ring.  Sparring meant standing the terriers face to face so they could glare at each other and get worked up, if they were of that mind.   However, this practice was discouraged long ago and I personally have never seen any handler do it. In fact, these days any behaviour of the quarrelsome type gets stopped immediately by handlers.   In any event, sparring does not change the natural temperament of the dog.  It wasn't something they were taught to do.  

Stacey