HI all  im new to the boards and thought i would sound out a few oppinions if thats ok.
i am the owner of a harle great dane bitch and was thinking about maybe breeding her however, i know how hard it can be to breed harle's  to the standards that are required.
Am i right in thinking that if i do this correctly and put in the effort and time with help and the correct knowledge that i should by all  means become a breeder, or do people think that this line of danes should only be attempted by the experienced and them only as it is such a challenge.
Are there any dane breeders or breeders in general that have any thought's on this please.
kind regards.
Megan

Hi there, everybody starts somewhere at some point.
You just have to make sure that you are breeding for al of the right reasons i.e the good of the breed.
Start to show your girl if you dont already and see how she gets on, if she does well in the show ring then thats a good start.
Make sure that all relevant health checks are done.
Great danes suffer from hip dysplasia (average 12), elbow dysplasia and now possibly eye problems.
So make sure that your girl has had her hips and elbows scored and possibly eyes tested before you even consider breeding from her no matter how well she does in the ring.
Dont know that much about danes but hope somene else can help you
good luck
Amy

have no intention of showing my bitch or any of my other danes showing has never really been something im interested
in and i dont have to actually have my bitch showing to breed, well at least i did'nt or has this all changed now.
may well be the case.
kind regards.
Megan.

Megan
no you don't HAVE to show to breed but it IS the only way you will find out how your bitch measures up against the breed standard unless you are a breed expert.
The other benefit is that you would be able to see available studs and talk to stud dog owners if you were to enter some shows and it is a good place to see what studs are producing good quality offspring.
Other than that she needs to be KC reg and pass her health tests with good results...not just get the OK from your vet.
Archer

the bottom section of the previous post goes without question, but the top part im afraid will have to agree to disagree
(" unless your a breed expert") please do not think im being rude or dis-regarding what you are saying its just that i dont beleive you have to enter your dogs in competitions to be a breed expert anyone with a pedigree dog should at least have the general knowledge of what is required of that breed standard, and build on that after all this is how all dogs started off.
Dont get me wrong im not saying you should or could take any pedigree dog and breed it, im saying that you can also get pet quality dogs of the same standards as well and i would never breed any dogs i thought were of a sub standard the same as i wouldnt breed a dog just because i thought it was going to do well in a show.
kind regards.
Megan.

<<anyone with a pedigree dog should at least have the general knowledge of what is required of that breed standard>>

Hear hear to that! But sadly it seems the huge majority don't. :( Very many people seem to think that just because their dog is a pedigree means it's automatically good enough to breed from, and unfortunately 9 times out of 10 they are wrong.

Which is why you see so many substandard dogs around. Like begets like.

Megan
what I meant was that unless you have the expertise to HONESTLY assess your dog against the breed standard and decide wether she is of a standard suitable for breeding then showing will give you the means to find this out. We all think our dogs are beautiful BUT we need to be honest with ourselves sometimes someone elses veiw of the dog who knows the breed standard better and is not judging with the bias veiw that we have of our own dogs is what is needed. Can you look at your bitch and say wether her shoulder is steep?her ears are well set? her  upper arm is steep? etc etc.I know I can't and so I learn about my dogs through the knowledge of judges and breed experts.
The alternative to showing is to get someone knowledgeable to assess your bitch. That person should be chosen carefully as many people will just tell you what you want to hear and you should want to be told the truth.If you find out your bitch has a certain minor fault then you can find a stud who excells in that area to try to breed it out.
Regards Archer

Hi Megan, as you say in your first post that you know how hard it is to breed harlies to the required standards, you will appreciate that this can only be done if you know that both sire and dam meet the Breed Standard themselves. And the best way to discover this is to show them and get unbiased opinions from several specialists. We all think our own dogs are the best, but sometimes we are looking through rose-tinted spectacles! ;)

But then you are purely putting this on some one else's thought's of your dog (no matter how long they have been breeding) and all though i would not buy or sell those that did not reach the breed standards, i also would not scrap the idear of mating a good stud dog if for instance he had not made someones top 3 prize list.
however i must stress this is just my oppinion about breeding/showing and i do not wish to offend anyone it is purely my own school of thought.
Kind regards.
Megan

<<<i dont beleive you have to enter your dogs in competitions to be a breed expert anyone with a pedigree dog should at least have the general knowledge of what is required of that breed standard, and build on that after all this is how all dogs started off.>>>

Unfortunately there are good and bad examples even with KC registered dogs. Some people assume because the dog  is KC registered this then qualifies it as a good specimen - unfortunately this just isnt true :(

and i agree with what you are saying but i also beleive in my own judgement as well, im not saying i think my knowledge would be of greater value than that of anothers just that i  trust enough in myself to breed healthy happy  great quality kc registered pups.
but i do choose not to show and this is a choice as it isnt to every ones tastes,
hows the old saying go swings and round-abouts .
kind regards.
megan.

Think Megan you have a strange idea of showing, but if you don't wish to show your own dogs I still think it would be worth your while to attend a few and see what studs are about and what sort of pups they are producing. Most of us show because we love our breeds and enjoy seeing the youngsters being produced and a very nice dog having success, matters not a lot if your own dog is doing well providing you can understand why the winning dogs win and the others don't. As you have the experience I would have thought you would have enjoyed watching quality dogs and seeing what other breeders dogs are producing and finding out if you agree with several of the most experienced judges. However I guess you will do as you think best.

Will allmost certainly be looking for the best stud dog i can find and the show ring is the obvious choice, as im not going to say that i  wont use a dog that shows, im simply saying i have no desire to show my own bitch.
I dont think i could really breed my bitch with any reputable stud dog from the ring if they dont see her as a good mate, (allthough theres always the exception to the rule who'll use money as the only incentive)
Kind regards
Megan

And of course you know to check that the stud dog has also been successfully hip- and elbow-scored, and had his eyes checked for hereditary problems.
:)

Once again this is something any half- decent owner of any dog should have had done allready, not of all least the owner of a stud dog HE/THEY should also expect the same medical proof from me as well, and i will not accept anything less as nor should they.
However i do feel the original thread has strayed just a little as you see all harlequins produce mismarks there are very few if any sometimes for showing potential and there is a school of thought that breeders should hang on to any harlequins once born till at least 4 months old if not till 6 months as any that may appear of show quality, may have changed by this stage to show a truer picture, so does anyone think this is really something only someone with many years experience should undergo as they have such a small gene pool and not many superior lines to go back to and correct the faults with, in the first place.
Kind regards.
Megan.

My best friend breeds danes(only for the last 20 years or so tho' she has been "in danes"a lot longer)

She only breeds when she has a long list of people genuinely wanting puppies & she wants one for herself.(she is also part of dane rescue another reason she doesn't breed very much)

The last two litters she bred were both of 14 puppies & only four were harliquins, she had several bostons, a blue & the rest mismarks

Even though she had a list of people wanting her puppies she still had a couple at 16 weeks as well as the two she kept herself.

My friend has also had a couple of bitches that had to have C sections(they were not bred from again) & one bitch who the vet allowed to go three days overdue who died at the vets & whose puppies were also dead. She is not a novice breeder, but ever she had problems hand rearing the 12 puppies one of the C section bitches produced who never had any milk & of course danes are not kennel dogs so all the puppies should be reared in the house-she's lucky she has a very big dog friendly house. She usually has at least one(bred by another person & usually sold to an unsuitable home )rescue in at any one time

I hope if you do breed from your bitch that before they are born you have at least 10 people wanting puppies to ensure that you are not in the position of having to run on maybe 6+ puppies to 6  months of age & of course have the facilities to take back any of  the puppies at any time in their lives should their owners be unable to cope or keep them.

Hi Megan,

Why don't you ask the breeder of your bitch if you think she should be bred from. You'll have to go to them to get the restrictions lifted anyway if they haven't been already.

I really would advise going to a few shows to watch and to see whats about, talk to a few breeders etc., even if you don't want to show your bitch. They may be able to give you an unbiased opinion of her quality. I only say this because I know a few people in our breed who have insisted their dog fits the breed standard perfectly, only for it to never get placed at a Champ show, because the dog is poor quality. People have a tendency to fit the breed standard around their own dog, especially new owners with only one dog. I'm not saying this is the case here, but without the opinion of other people in the breed with many years experience how will you know? My first dog was in my opinion absolutely perfect, 8 years down the line, I realise he's anything but and rarely show him now. It took a few years of showing to realise this, and to get myself some better quality dogs. (He's still my baby and much loved though!)

Megan, have tried to start this 3 times now without sounding too disapproving, and cant, it is not meant to sound that way, just a genuine enquiry - how do you KNOW that you fully understand the breed standard, and your bitch fits it?  There are so many nuances and shades, it is impossible to come into a breed, (or indeed into dogs) read a breed standard, look at your dog, and say, Yes, its a good one, exactly as dexcribed.  Most breeds have differing "types" within the breed, and whilst they all fulfill the standard, they can look very different, some will appeal to one person, some to another.  But without looking at lots of dogs (of your breed and others) the majority of whom are good specimens, it is not possible to develep and "eye" for a dog., to see conformation faults and virtues, excellent movement and unsoundness.  It is the same as any other discipline, first you need to learn the basics, then go on to increase your knowledge (and in dogs you just keep on learning) for the finer points.  I can understand someone not being interested in showing, but honestly dont see any other way you can get to see enough good dogs all in one place, on numerous accassions, than visiting shows.  I suppose you could contact lots of breeders and ask if you can visit their kennels,  examine their dogs etc, but it would be time taking, and not allow you to compare the different dogs together.  So, getting back to my question, are you S'URE you understand the breed standard, and can honestlyh evaluate your own bitch, list its good points and failings, study pedigrees and come up with a stud dog who is compatible, will complement and improve on what you have?

Then you have the colour issue.  Danes are not my breed, but I think that any of the blue/merle derivatives require a lot of in depth knowledge - is the Harlequin colour related to a merle gene, and if so is it a "lethal" gene in Danes?  If so, what are the breed guidlines for breeding to minimise the problems?  Then there is the basic issue of space for a litter of Danes - I noted you mentoned about running pups on - do you have the space and facilities to run on perhaps a dozen giant pups?  And how would you ensure they all get socialised and handled enough?  I have run on 5 before (toy breed from 3 seperate litters) and it was fun but exhausting.  i simpley cant imagine doing the same with 5 (or even more) danes!

Then, do you have the time, facilities, and inclination to take back adult Danes if owners cant cope?  This may sound negative, but are facts all good breeders have to face.  At least the show world (or working disciplines) hooks you up to a network of similar minded people, who can share knowledge, and network to place problem dogs without stretchin the poor  breed rescue resources again and again!

Interested to read you response.
bye
Gwen

Gwen - you managed to put into words what I tried & failed to do last night :D If there's one thing I've learnt after nearly 30 yrs in my breed it's how much I still don't know! If I'd never exhibited, judged or bred them, I'd probably think I knew everything there is to know!

Gwen
exactly what I was trying (some what badly!!) to get at...you put it so elloquently
Archer

Well said Gwen.  I tried twice last night and deleted my reply to Megan's posts.:(

Megan, your style is somewhat similar to Louise. You are asking excellent questions, then disregarding the eminently sensible advice. Your mind is made up.
Dawn R.

Never mind Dawn people like my friend will be there to pick up the pieces no wonder she hasn't breed for 3 years when novice breeders are taking litters from their 1st bitches to supply the market, without the experience of living & knowiing the breed for many years first & being able to select the right home for the right dog

:(

Snap Gwen..

Thing is when people are so convinced they are right when it is something I think is so so obviously not so simple the getting through is the hardest bit. No disrespect.

Megan if you do not show etc how do you , yourself learn about the breed standard..??

Sorry but even if it is your own school of thought, it is, as far as I am concerned not enough.

This is my 4th show season in my breed and boy have I learned a lot and I am still very much a novice.   When I am not showing I am sat right there at the ring side.   I know I still have a long way to go.

Showing isn't about 1 persons thoughts it is about a huge group of peoples thoughts. Consistent good results or even consistent places, doesn't have to be the top everytime but at least obvious that it is a good specimen.

That is why breeds run into trouble I am afraid because people often think like you I am afraid. You cannot pick up a book about a breed and master it over night. It doesn't work like that.

I think morally people owe it to the breed to at least do everything they can to get it right.

Would you let someone cut your hair just because they thought they knew how to cut..NO it is the samething if not worse to breed a dog that will be one the earth for a while without the correct knowledge. 

Loads and loads of people do it but it doesn't make it morally or ethically right.

I actually am going to say and try and make is sound not to harsh, but I think when someone thinks like Megan has just shared with us, this is more dangerous than any noivce , most novices at least accept they are novices and will seek support , advice and not make decisions without back up.

Good evening to everyone.
thank you all for getting back to me, can i just say however im not that sure why people are getting quite so defensive about my thread. iI am very interested on hearing peoples thoughts on my original thread and will treat everyones replies with the greatest of respect.
I do not however understand " Nursery and Moonmaidens" posts and would politely ask them to reply with some kind of explanation of there replies as I really can not understand where they are coming from, and would kindly ask if they could reply with  a reply for me ( or if anyone else could shed some light please feel free)
Kind Regards.
Megan.

Moonmaiden,how very lucky your "dane"friend must be!!To have "a long list of people waiting"for pups before she decides to breed a litter.Please tell me,how does she achieve this??Does she go around asking people constantly if they would be interested in one of her pups from her dogs?And if so is that enough for her to make the VERY BIG decision to breed a litter?or dont tell me,people constantly harrass her because of her "excellent examples"and beg her to breed??Like every else has said,we all start somewhere and most of us are competent enough to know a "good standard" without the circus of the show world!!

Jestony well please tell us how you do it without the circus of the show world..

It is funny how people that breed and do not show use these terms towards the show world !!!!! Very funny..

Could i please just address those who seem to be trying to change this thread into a sounding ground for the reasons of to show?not to show (that is the question) It was not. Ther are many different idears on the wrongs and rights of the show world as there are on the breeders who dont show.
I am of the oppinion that there are no wrongs or rights just peoples own and must stress individual views,the thread really started of as, a sounding ground for the breeding of harlequins and if the fact that it may just be to much of a mind feild for a novice to the breeding world to breed this colour.
For instance (As As BB CC DD EEmm SSww) Black bred Blacks are the only dane which can be bred to all five colours with relative safety, so the whole dane family is no walk in the park no pun intended.
The only exception to this rule is the harle's since they may produce Merle's and Blacks both with to much white.
Some of the harles May have to much white and even then these will more than likely be amongs't the best of the litter.
However Blacks from Harle's may carry a recessive Gene, for white spotting, and this for instance could be unsafe to use on fawns,Brindles,Blues,Blacks. although there will be some merles or blacks with to much white produced,they can be bred to Whites to produce Harlequins and merles.
These are just the basics and there would be a lot more in depth pedigree assesments to take place on any chosen danes to produce a hopefull one or two harlequins, the whole affair is a relative mind feild.
For the people who arrose the question of time, space and money, im very fortunate to  have all three so that need not be a concern.
its more the question of should a novice attempt to breed harle's.
Kind Regards.
Megan.

The original purpose of shows was a s a breeders tool and shop window.  When all the dogs are brought together they can be compared.  I fail to see how else one can choose a stud, if one doesn't see him to compare against the others, adn also his progeny.

At shows over the years you will see generations of dogs and their relatuves putting flesh on the bones of pedigrees.  You can then make anote when looking at a potential stud of not only his points, but those of his parents Grandparents, adn other relatives.

As obviously when one starts one will not have had time to gain this knowledge it is best to work with an experienced breeder who can advise until one has enoughknowledge oneself (which I feel is probably never, as it is good to bounce ones ideas off someone else). 

So yes a Novice can breed, but needs to be assisted so that what they produce is likely to be the best.  There is no room for getting it wrong when one considers these are living creatures who will affectrthe lives of their new owners.  Giant breeds bred badly (as can others of course) lead to heartache and considerable veterinary expense.  So the breeder hasto try all that is humanly possible to avoid producing problem pups.

Jestony

She is not "lucky"but has a reputation that means that people will wait years for a dog from her & rather than place the wrong dog in the wrong home she will run puppies on until the right one comes along

She certainly does not canvas for people to buy her dogs how rude of you to suggest that she does You clearly know nothing about real dog breeders Like the breeders of my cavaliers who also never advertize & the lady who bred my beardie champion bitch & who still has Goldens & has bred them for over 50(FIFTY)years & never had to advertize

Her danes are good examples of the breed with lovely temperaments & characters that make lovely pets & some make the show ring, but most are kept as family pets. Her Danes do not die at 7 years of age. the last one she lost was nearly 14

No one begs her to breed & when she wants a puppy she will breed a litter & knows that she will always find homes for the ones she isn't going to keep. Again how very rude of you & childish remarks show up your lack of knowledge

The trouble is today everyone & his wife wants to get a bitch & mate it up because their bitch is so perfect & of course 14 Harlie GD's at £1,500 a time is no small change(I do not know how much my friend charges it is none of my business), a local "breeder"has upwards of 30 dogs of various breeds & his first litter of Danes was long coated sired not by his dog with OCD & HD but his English Setter dog, but how nice as they were all Harlies. He breeds his bitches every seaon doesn't bother with the KC & most of his products end up in rescue or PTS before a year

After her bitch died due to the vet's neglience(he admitted it & made an out of court settlement& retired from being a vet not that this replaced her bitch), she did not breed for five years as the bitch was the last of her home bred bitches, she had to start all over again. & it took her five years to find a Dane she lliked & who fitted her idea of a good GD

My friend is not danish by the way, but then neither are great danes

Sorry most people are not competent to judge a good example of correct type, had a lady today tell me that my Cavalier boy was far too big & obviously a X & he only weighs 15lbs, on the other hand her long coated cream soft earded GSD is to be mated at 12 months old as she is such a lovely looking dog & is typical of the breed, & off she waddled(the dog that is)in full season, unx-rayed to be mated to the dog in the next village who is her full brother. Yes a novice going about things in the right way

I am very sad to hear of your freinds devastating lost this must have been very hard on her.
Please could i just ask you though i hope "your" referal, to the comments you have just made about eveyone and his wife wanting to breed, i hope you are not assuming this is what i am doing, because this would be as you have previously pointed out to somone very rude of you to say such a thing.
Just wanted you to clarify this if that is ok as cant always tell a persons correct response from a pc screen thankyou.
Kind Regards.
Megan.

I think many of us would be interested to read your answer to my previous post, asking you about how you gained your knowledge of the breed standard, and an eye to evaluate your bitch.  Before even entering the minefield of selective colour breeding, the basics of a quality dog are necessary.  In most breeds "breeding for colour" has been a direct route to disaster, as the important points of structure, movement, even such absolute basics as temperament and health, are side lined to the colour issue.  Not wanting to show your dogs I can understand, the show world is not for everyone.  However, going back to one of your early posts, it would appear that you are considering that you should run pups on to ensure that THEY are of show standard?  Did I interpret this correctly?  How, without knowledge of the show world, would you reach this decision? 

The fact remains, unless you can assure those of us who have expressed concerns that you are sound and knowledgeable on the basics, we will probably all jump on the band wagon of saying (quite forcibly in some cases) that breeding should  not be undertaken lightly, and is yet another litter of Great Danes bred just for the pet market, without due knowledge or care, really to the benefit of the breed, or the individual pups when they arrive?

You must understand that we get lots of posters here who ask wildly innapropriate questions and get defensive and "huffy" when the answers given  are not what they want to hear.  The majority of experienced people in this "community" have the best interests of dogs as a whole very close to their hearts, we may not all agree on every little issue, but the vast majority are not in favour of indiscriminate breeding.  I appreciate you appear to think your breeding would be ethical and thoughtful - so let us know how you gained your knowledge, and by what means you evaluate your own bitch, how you will be able to decide if a stud is suitable for consideration (leaving aside the colour issue at this point) and then perhaps we will all get off our "hobby horses" , and discuss the whole colour thing with you, but at the moment it seems to be definetly putting the cart before the horse!
bye
Gwen

Im afraid no you did not get the right interpritation from that post i thought i had actually expressed at some stage in my earlier posts that i would no more breed for show quality pups as i wouldn't breed for just pet quality. I would breed if and only when i thought i could get the best possible result, even though oppinions on the way to acheive these differ.
My Knowledge is of being around danes all my life owning 4 of the breed myself and also working with them, i have on several occasions spoke with my employer she herself owns 11 great danes  and  regulary attend's shows.
She does not breed harle's herself but has pointed out to me this this is her personal choice and that each person judges this on there own merit.
After reading some of the replied posts i hope that my wording has not come over in a manner that was never intended.
I would never just breed for good colour lines and am in total agreement when you say that these are not the only thing to look for as each and every aspect of any dog that is maybe going to be mated is just as important.even down to the colour's of the inner eye lids. dogs mannerisms,ect
Kind regards.
megan.

edit to say that every dog no matter what breed should always be a good healthy example of the breed.

Taking you last comment first - in an ideal world  certainly every dog should be a good, healthy example - however, this is not an ideal world, so this is NOT true!  Many, many thousands of pedigree pups are born each year with very little hope of turning out to be healthy, good specimens, becasue unthinking or greedy people choose to breed sub-standard specimens, with no thought to genetics, health tests and good rearing practices.

I know many people who have had a breed for many years, and would have no more knowledge of the finer points of the breed than they would of a quantum-physics !  9 out of 10 people who brought a Cocker Spaniel in to groom in the year that a Cocker won BIS at Crufts told me how similar their dog was to the winner, and how they were sure their dog fulfilled every ideal of the standard (or in a lot of cases, "just like the breed books said").  The vast majority of these dogs, while bearing enough attributes to be easily recognised as cockers, had very, very few of the finer points required by the standard, but becasue they filled the general "pattern"  of cockers, and these people, many of them intelligent, professional types,  saw a few similarities, and as they do not possess the indepth knowledge to evaluate the strenghts and weakness, assume they have "excellent cockers".

So, I am afraid, having owned 4 Danes does not an expert make - how good were they, how would YOU know how good they were, without comparison to better and worse specimens how do you evaluate what they have to offer?  If your employer is a Breed expert, and not only attends but exhibits or judges, perhaps you have learned from her, but intimate knowledge with her 11 plus your 4 does not give a wide enough base to establish an indepth eye for a breed! 

Danes are a breed with so many potential pitfalls, what makes you think your own bitch has someting valuable to offer to the breed?  This is, I suppose, the question which we all need to ask before considering a mating.  Then there is the other side of not being hooked up to the show world - how do you know about problems in her lines?  Showing may be a hot bed of gossip, but it does give you an inkling of how lines develop, which has health problems (not always the ones you test for) and which lines go together like a dream, whilst others are more like a timebomb.  It is an unfortunate fact of life that not every stud dog owner  will be completely honest about thier own dog, especially when dealing with a novice!  You think you  have knowledge, but your post does not demonstrate it, I am afraid.

Then the subject of running on show pups  - you stated in an early post words to the effect that you had heard some breeders ran pups on till 4 - 6 months to be able to tell which had show potential, and what did people think of this approach?  I took this to mean you were considering this approach, so my question was aimed at finding out how, if you did run pups on, you would be able to do your own evaluation, and what grounds you would have for selling "show" pups yourself?  You state you are not intending to breed for "just show quality any more than you would breed for just pet quality".  I dont understand this, if you arent intending your pups as show or pet what are you proposing to do with them?  If you mean you arent planning a litter which is wholely one or the other - well, that is pretty much one of the main things about breeding - ethical, caring breeders VERY RARELY plan a litter just as pets, and whilst we all wish for an excellent, show quality litter every time (even if they dont all end up in the ring, pets are important, after all!), it is very, very rare that even the top breeders would get a whole litter good enough to show at top level, which is the goal most of us have in mind as the ultimate aim (however far some of us are from acheiving it).

bye
Gwen

Dear gwen
I am afraid that i am   at a loss  as to where you are coming from your post mentions the fact.
YOU THINK YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE BUT YOUR POST DOES NOT DEMONSTARTE IT IM AFRAID.
I have never once said i am all Knowledgeable and no everything about breeding my bitch inside and out, and never would as i dont think one ever stops learning about there chosen breed.
Am i to presume from your post you are and further more what would you like me to demonstrate for you as this is more a topical discussion than what you seem to be aiming at.
When i said i would no more breed for show quality pups than i would for all pet quality, by this i meant if you know anything about harle's and im presuming you do that you will rarely make any successfull show quality pups and most will only be eligable for good loving pet homes hope this helps you better understand the reasoning for the post.
So in plain Black and White Should or shouldnt Harle's be bred in Particular if i have indeed never bred harle's.
This is the post.
Kind regards
Megan.

edited to say if harles are indeed bred by anyone normally over 90 per cent of anyone litter will ever be pet dogs/Bitches who ever breeds them.

The point of my posts was - not should or should not Harles be bred (which iI understand perfectly to be your original question) but should YOU be considering breeding at all, at this stage?  The colour question is secondary to the basics.  I agree that with dogs (and other livesotck) you go on learning for ever, however, most of us on here agree that you need (and need to be able to demonstrate) a knowledge of dogs, especially your own breed, before you should consider breeding.

This is why I asked how you knew what you knew, if you see what I mean.  What experience you have to enable you to evaluate your bitch, and decide she is good enough to breed from, regardless of her colour.  You replied that you had had 4 Danes, and were familiar with 11 others.  My point is that this is not sufficient, in most cases, to have developed the sort of knowldege necessary to know the virtues and faults, and to choose a compatible stud.

So can you look at your bitch, and point by point go over her strengths and weaknesses, know enough about her lines to recognise where these came from on her parents pedigrees.  Can you then do the same for any potential stud dogs, and be able to make an educated guess at where his good points and failing came down through the lines?  Of course, most importantly with the dog, to also know what he is throwing, what tendencies you might not have expected, but are happening repeatedly?  (some bad, some good possibly)  Are you awar of any tendencies to health issues in the breed which are not yet subject to KC testing schemes, but which may appear in certain lines?

That is what I meant by demonstrating enough knowledge.  You need to be able to demonstrate this to yourself, first and foremost.  Ask yourself why YOUR bitch should be bred from?  How deeply can you answer this, and have you access to expert opinion to back up your opinion?
bye
Gwen

I would say my employer ann is an expert not only producing stunning examples of the breed alot of those matings i was aparty to from pre planning conception , finding suitable studs going through paper works bloodlines medical historys ect.
Have been back and fourth to shows with ann when she has been showing and judgeing and have met many other breeders so i think my network of knowledge and the wealth of help, as well as there experience on these matters that you bring up would most certainly not be an issue for instance if ann herself or bernard a close freind of ann who i see on a regular basis should tell me that my bitch was of unsound quality in there honest oppinion i would not consider using her.
Ann see's mushka all the time however if i was to decide to breed i would seek her oppinion.
then im sure with my own good working knowledge and the above named people help and guideance i will have no problems in producing excellent specimens, however no one breeder of harle's can say that any of the pups would be eligable for the show ring and this is my point.
However if no one bred harle's because of this they would not be around.
So  is the fact that one maybe if your very lucky two pups that that would be eligable for the show ring a good enough reason to breed harle's.
Kind regards.
Megan.

Edited to say you make your point gwen but these are not concerns of mine as i would have them covered,with people that i trust and admire.

One or two show quality pups in any litter, regardless of breed or colour, is pretty good. Your primary concern should be to breed good, healthy, typical Danes, rather than breeding for colour.
:)

Megan,
It sounds like you've got all the bases covered! ;-)

You seem to know about the potential problems resulting from trying to produce this colour.
I would ask the following:

I can understand your reluctance to be involved in showing, but presumably by not showing you will limit the market for your better quality pups?

Is there a sufficient market for the high number of mismarked pups that are likely to occur?

If not, are you prepared to either cull mismarks or keep large numbers of mismarked dogs?

I am neither involved in showing nor Great Danes, but based upon the the problems that you yourself have mentioned I can understand breeders (even the most experienced) leaving harlequins alone!

A though struck me this afternoon about your posts and your references to "one or two being show standard" , it looks like what you actually mean is that 1 or 2 wont be mismarks!  It takes a lot more than corect colour patterning to make a show puppy, and someone who does not show, has not shown, is not likely to make this evaluation.  So, lets face it, if you breed, what ever colour, you are breeding pets.  Are you sure the world needs just 1 more litter of pet danes.  And if you have access to a wealth of expert knowledge, and have indeed attended many shows (which you omitted to mention before!)  Why post a highly technical question on a general forum?

So the short answer to your original post is, if you are not wanting to breed purely for the pet market (and you are to be applauded for this, if it is your aim) then you should not attempt to breed from your Harlequin bitch.  I am sure someone from Great Dane rescue will be able to find out for us how Danes pass through their hands each year, add to that figure the number who also end up in general rescue kennels, and thank your lucky stars that you will not be adding to this number.
bye
Gwen

not trying to sound rude but i think that you are now understanding the context in what i left a post about.
I have not asked on the base's that i should would or could cover i know these allready,
My post/thread was taken off in several different directions.
You are very correct when you say that i should not really wish to breed only pet pup's and this was really what the post was about in the first place should this breed be one to consider because of that fact and the complexity surrounding it.
As the plain and simple fact is that most Harlequin danes will only be of this quality there for rendering breeder with this relevant fact.
Did not feel the need to talk about my background into the breed untill posts that were straying off  meaning i had to fill people in so they had a clearer picture, as this was not i felt in the first instance needed as my post was about the complexity of breeding harle's and i know that im confident in all of the above named topics that people have brought up well at least with the assistance of those around me, so this is why they were also not brought up in my original post.
right back off to do some more tidying up, im afraid i have 4 very dusty danes at the moment, as my old conservatory is making way for a new one and they are finding it  great fun to trying to get in among'st all the action so to speak.
Kind Regards.
Megan

this is simple a breeder once told me if you can breed the best bitch with the best stud you will hopefuly end up with the best litter of pups . well try anyway well its the only way of producing quality pups , theres no half mesures here with a not up to the standard mother or farther , you dont have to show but mabe you could make freinds with an exsp dane show owner , he or she will be able to tell you if your bitch is good to breed from , Have a proper look at the pedigree do you have any champs in there that means that those dogs have won shows i know nearly all dogs  bitches  on my cockers  pedigree are sh ch's so id be likely to mate her with another shch if i was going to its the best way of knowing the stud is up to the standard. definatly find someone who can check out your girl and let you know if she has any downfalls . i must stress you should have all checks done .

IO don't think that most people picked up on the fact that yours was a technical question as to the whole point of trying to breed this coat pattern :D

I did but i dont have a clue about danes :D thats why i said for someone exsp to take a look :P must be a dane person about to help with the tech question