right here i go and you may not like it but ive had labradors the  most boisterous of breeds for more years than  i care to say and never and  i say never have i caged crated whatever nice word you care to say ive always had well adgusted dogs
Im fed up of reading my dog is crated my dog is caged I know before you shoot me that they can be used as in cars or if you need a pup to be safe but people are caging dogs all the time and this is totally wrong its lazy a quick fix way
why? i know of peple going out 8 hours a day and leaving dog in a cage   for gods sake dont have a dog there is no pont the whole idea of a dog is to spend time walk etc if you are putting him in a cage dont bother its  a quick fix and not only that very cruel and so flipping lazy
so fed up of I crate my dog I cage my dog they think crate  is a nicer word but its still the same my puppy is in his crate  :(
if people do not have time to walk and see to their dog then dont have one simple as that dont cage them all day that is down right cruel

Tell that to my friend who had his dog(a cocker)kicked to death by burglars who raided his house. had she been caged/crated call it what you like she would have still been alive & his then little boy would not have seen his beloved pet's battered body. A member of our club thought like you her bitch died from chewing something & swallowing it when she was left in the house alone, again had she been caged she would still be alive

There is no need to rant on & on about it. My dogs see their cages as their space & often pop in for a snooze.

I presume you are also anti kennels after all they are just bigger cages

I'm not mad about crates / cages but am strongly in favour of kennels with a run. I think your argument is well meant but probably a bit simplistic. My adult dogs spend the majority of their time curled up asleep, and being restricted for a couple of hours in a fairly confined space is really not going make a whole lot of difference to them. I think the use of a crate needs to be set against the context of the whole of the dogs day. Certainly a crate could be used in a way that could easily be described as 'cruel', but i am pretty confident that there are many extremely well looked after, happy dogs that get caged at times. IMO they are like any other dog training 'tool' - they can be used effectively or badly!

I agree with you 100% Mattie,to tell you the truth i had never even heard of a crate before i started visiting overseas websites,they are not at all popular here in Australia.
I wouldnt have the heart to lock my dogs up in a cage,to me it is cruel!
My dogs have had run of the house, since they came to live with me,we leave the doors to all the rooms open,this is their house too,yes,cleaning up the wee and poo's when i came home was a pain in the butt but i knew it was to be expected from a puppy,i wouldnt have got a dog if i felt the need to lock it up every time i stepped out the door,in my honest opinion crates are used by lazy people who dont want the bother of cleaning up messes or having to watch their dog continuously,it is easy to puppy proof a house,just "time consuming" all of this should be thought out and organised before getting a dog, this is just my opinion,i certainly dont expect everyone to agree with it.
I have nothing against people useing crates BUT only if they leave the door open,which sorta defeates the purpose and would be a waste of money.
I have seen replies to people asking about crates stating "dont buy a too bigger crate,just enough room for the dog to stand up and turn around" this makes my blood boil,what must these poor dogs go through for the sake of keeping their owners houses neat and tidy???? Or then there is the excuse "oh but it shortens housetraining and makes it so much easier" once again laziness comes to mind.I could have easily tossed my pup in a crate instead of having 3 mths. of housebreaking hell,but it was my job to teach her the rules and not a cage!
I have heard all the excuses under the sun about why people crate dogs and none of them are particularly valid ones :rolleyes:
Crates would be absolutley unnecasary if people did a bit of forward planning and took the massive amount of time and energy it takes to raise a pup and not always take the easy way out.
When i was looking at breeders i would have spun straight around if i  saw they had their dogs in cages,this would have told me that they didnt have the time or energy to properly supervise their dogs,thankfully i have not yet met a breeder who crates their dogs,they all either had them in the kitchen/dining room or had a puppy room,the majority had up baby gates and moved the pups around from room to room wherever the breeder went.
I really do not want this thread to get locked or out of hand as i am interested to hear the reasons on why owners feel they HAVE to put their dogs in cages,i hope this thread stays civilised :D
As for the dog getting kicked to death because it wasnt in a cage,there is no use saying "what iff" or "if only" the same thing could have happened if the dog was crated or not,one will never ever know :(
I can bet my bottom dollar that for every excuse used by an owner who crates their dog, there will always be a be another more humane option to consider

Christine

Have to agree with you about the 'what ifs' of the dog kicked to death.
I don't think anyone who watched the news coverage of the farm invasions in Zimbabwe could forget the sickening images of the Rhodesian Ridgeback locked in the outbuilding of a farm being stoned to death.  What was particularly distressing was the fact that the dog had been abandoned by its owner who would have known that they would not have been coming back
Someone with the mentality to kick a dog to its death would be sick enough to approach a caged dog with intent to cause it harm
I can only hope for the dogs sake that the first blow was enough to render it senseless and it didn't suffer much :(
Lara x

Sorry Ozzie it is not a case of what if. The police caught the scum bags who killed the little dog, they told the police them killed the dog because it was fussing around they & slowing down the robbery, so had her owner crated her they would not have killed

Crates not used in Australia ?????????? I'm on a e group with a good few Australian mambers & most of them use crates indoors obviously we move in different dog circles

Those barstards that killed the dog oughta be strung up by their balls,i also thought that scumbags who would break into a house in the first place wouldnt be adverse to hurting an animal.
Moonmaiden,none of the breeders i have ever come into contact with have used crates,this is only the extent of my experience.
I dont belong to any Aussie dog sites as to tell you the truth they all seem boring,can you reccomend any that are as good as or similar to champdogs?Especially to do with nutrition :D

christine

I'm just on UK e mail groups that have a good number of Assies as members(probably bored with the Australian groups ;)) 

It all depends on what breeds you ahve & how you house them. if someone has all their dogs kenneled(not something I would do as my breeds are not kennel dogs)they would not need indoor ones

We used to have a cavalier who could open & shut his cage door, so when he wanted some peace from the other dogs he opened the door when in then closed it after him, my cavaliers are only in the cages with the doors shut the night before a show after they have been bathed & have their dry coats on. They go in willingly as they know that a bath on a night means a show the next day & the possibility of meeting their mates & owners.

I think a dog is better off indoors than out, but never sound off about people who chose to keep their dogs permanently in kennels

I accept that cages have a use and accept all that has been said here by  you responsible owners I am not anti crate I just dont use them myself in the house I do use them sometimes in a car.
I am also not against kennels we have five here for rescue they are big with big runs filled withh toys and all manner of things for the dogs
My annoyance is that its a common assesory now with a puppy  and like another said subject to mis use and let me state quite clearly so everyone understands I assume most people on these boards to be responsible owners else why would they bother coming on to talk dogs.. and accept they may use cages for whatever reason they see fit.
Its true I hate seeing dogs in cages like I dont like seeing zoo animals in cages but thats just me I went to a house were all the big active dogs were confined to cages while the owner was a t work all day it seemed to me a terrible thing Im lucky I can work from home but if I couldnt then I would not have young boisterous dogs confined in this manner.
May I say also I do not wish to offend anyone on here and  hope everyone feel like they can air their views in a polite way and not get personal.

Regarding the poor dog that got killed by burglars that is so sad I always assumed a dog to be a deterrant this is a sick world we live in :(

And my friend who took her adult dogs out for a 20 minute walk, thought she had puppy proofed the house really well, and came back to find the puppy dead, caught in the cord from the blinds:(

Wendy

Hello Mattie
I used to think that crates/cages were cruel.  First time I saw them used was when I visited an aunt in the USA, her dogs were always loose till one day there was a breakin at her house. The burgulars put a dog into the house first to take care of any dogs on the premises, I will assume I don't have to describe the scene when she got home from her messages.  She did have three rescue dogs and one labrador.  She now crates/cages her dogs whenever she goes out, she now has two new rescue dogs who are quite well adjusted. 
My dogs have there own crates/cages and use them themselves with no enticmnet, sometimes we find three or four dogs in one crate all sleeping together, and yes they are big enough crates for them to do that, the doors are only ever closed when they go to bed in the evening, if the door isn't open they will stand and wait for us to open it for them, and they are all indoors.  They also have travelling boxes for saftey in the event of an accident.
And my dogs are very well adjusted to our way of life just as your dog is adjusted to yours.
A tool is only as good as the use it is put to. And a crate/cage is after all only a tool.

Regards
Joan

Crates like anything else can be subject to misuse but used correctly can be an absolute godsend and I'd certainly recommend them.
I have a large crate/cage/indoor kennel call it whatever you like and can use it to keep any visitors to my home safe from a bite by popping my dog inside while they are here.  I also have dog gates and an outdoor kennel and run.  I do not confine my dog into a crate for hours on end but my dog will voluntarily curl up in his crate for hours on end and not move.  He's happy and well adjusted too.
I do find it suprising that someone who works in Lab rescue can not appreciate the benefits of crating   There are certainly a few labs that pass into rescue from exasperated owners who love the dog dearly but cannot cope with the destruction etc.. whenever their backs are turned, even for a moment regardless of the number of stuffed kongs available. 
A lot of the sniffer dogs that we aquire have come into Lab rescue for this very reason and adapt well to being crated.
If owners had started off with a crate and trained their dog to accept one correctly then they would have had a fighting chance that the owner/dog relationship would not have broken down and they would still have their dog.
Veterinary surgeons now often advise 'cage rest' for a dog with a spinal problem etc... giving them a chance to avoid expensive and invasive surgery which is often successful.
Cages have their uses.
Lara x

I'm 100% behind Mattie on this as well ! :)

If I read her right she is not against cages when used properly but against using cages to lock dogs up for hours at a time & I entireley agree with that !

Neither should they be used as a form of punishment !

Cages if used correctly are a good thing. I used cages when my two were puppies mainly for their own safety at night or for short periods when I wasn't about. The rest of the time the doors were open & they had freedom to wander in and out of them as they wished.

I no longer regularly use cages but they will still happily go into them if we are for example staying overnight at someone elses house.

Cages have their place but I completely agree with Mattie that sadly they are very often abused ! :(

I had never seen a crate until i went to Canada where my uncle and cousin had crates for their dogs, the dogs seemed to love them ad went in there when they got fed up with human company.
We do have a crate for Leo but only really use it in the car and we sometimes take it if he has to stay with someone for a couple of hours while we go somewhere and they dont want him running all over the place.

I would never put him in it for hours at a time though in the day, because we are here with him and if he wants to lie down he has his bed for that.

I agree with you Mattie, dogs shouldn't be caged/crated for hours on end just for the convenience of the owners but like everyone else has said, used properly they are much kinder than some of the other options.  How awful for those poor dogs whose houses were burgled.  When people joke to me about how I'll never get burgled I have always thought that if I did my main concern would be what they might do to my dogs but to kick a dog to death or to send in a dog first. :(  I have come across quite a few people who consider it cruel to put a puppy in a crate but think nothing of giving it a good hiding for house training mistakes or chewing. 
My dogs will often choose to curl up in their crates when they are resting and are not in the least bit unhappy if they have to be shut in for any reason.  My Afghan (who said they are thick ;) ) will often create a diversion and pretend there is someone at the door, the Collies fall for it every time, so that she can have a crate to herself. 
My ex puppy farm stud dog, Hovis would never have coped without his crate.  He only came out for the toilet during the first few weeks that he was here and it was from the safety of his crate that he was able to watch the world go by and gradually come out of himself. 
Sally

Crate training a dog gives you (and the dog) the freedom to do so many more things than if the dog wasn't crate trained.  Both of my dogs were crate trained in adulthood, and we can now go to seminars and training courses, stay in hotels etc. so much easier.  It was also a boon when we had workmen in last year as I KNEW they were safe, even when to stupid workmen left doors open left right and centre!!!

However I do acknowledge that they are open to abuse, as is almost anything you care to name :(((((

I understand what you are saying about the crate becoming an accessory for any new pup,when we knew we were getting our latest dog we borrowed a crate for Spice when she first came home,she hated it,so after just a couple of days we removed it and bought her a playpen,this is now her own space she goes in and out as she pleases and sleeps in there when she wants.

We were lucky that a friend loaned us this crate as to purchase one would have cost us about £60 and then to find we couldn't use it successfully it would have been a waste.

But I do also think that when used correctly,for toilet training or safely confining a dog for very short periods of time for it's own safety, when you are out or maybe when you are doing something around the home that is unsafe to have a puppy running around your feet,then if a dog is not adverse to the crate it can be very useful.

We have,so far,been really lucky with Spice she hasn't chewed anything! and was toilet trained within a couple of weeks without any bother.Plus if I go to the dentist or pop to the shops (our local town is a covered dog-free zone) then Spice has the run of the downstairs and can roam at her leisure,but when I get home she is generally asleep or lying in her 'den' playpen.

It is frightening to read of the posts on here of the dogs that have been maimed or killed by burglars or by choking on something in the owners absence! I doubt we will ever live in a perfect world :(

Jacqueline

I also agree with Mattie, if people are going to use a crate they should not leave there dog in it for hours, yes i agree they are good for using in the car, I have a lab and never felt that i need to use a crate but im with my lab all day and night if i do leave him its not for more than 4 hours.

Heidi

Different ways of doing things...all subject to misuse..all have risks.None are completely wrong or right.
Each to there own...we all are entitled to opinions but as long as we raise our dogs right and love them I don't see the problem.
Archer

Ozzie, as you don't 'know' the use of crates, try not to think of it as a cage with a dog inside clinging to the bars, crying, screaming to be let out, but instead see it as a see-through indoor dog-kennel, in which you say "in you go" and the dog walks in by itself, lays down, watches you close the door and turns his/her head the other way and goes to sleep.

It might make you think about it more objectively ;-)

I've said my views on cages before - usually in response to people who say you wouldn't cage a child, so why your dog - and my response is always that you wouldn't leave your baby to crawl around the floor unattended whilst you go upstairs to hoover, or go to Sainsbury's, or leave the baby on a real bed overnight - no you'd put them in a cot where they can't get out and hurt themselves (ie the equivalent of a puppy cage).  A cot has bars all the way around and the child cannot get out until an adult lifts them out - does this therefore make baby cots barbaric and mean that anyone who puts their child in a cot is lazy, is not prepared to spend time with their child, and shouldn't be a parent?  No, it means they consider their safety, and are aware that they cannot watch them 24 hours a day.

I found the cage invaluable for the first few months I had my puppy.  She is six months old now and the cage has been put away - this is because I am 99% confident in her behaviour while I am out (I leave her in the living room which has no door to the kitchen, and I leave the lean-to door open so that should she be crossing her legs she know she can go out there, so she has quite a fair amount of 'house' to roam in whilst I am gone - however, in the past month or so that I have been doing this, she hasn't moved an inch from her bed the whole time I am gone.  And during the night she sleeps upstairs with us and lets us know if she wants to go downstairs for a wee.  However, I am well aware that this angelic behaviour may not continue, especially as she is now six months and 3 weeks and 'Kevin' is about to enter our lives, and in which case, the use of the cage will resume. 

I expect that those who have older dogs still using cages, have them because the dogs like them - dogs naturally like to be 'under' things when they sleep, like cubby holes or indoor kennels, so the dogs 'like' their cages and choose to go in and out of them.  I hadn't considered people putting older dogs in cages when they went out before, and this is not something I would personally do, but when you read the stories above of what has happened to dogs that haven't been caged when their owners are out you can understand why some people are concerned enough to do that.  It then becomes a personal decision of the risk - leaving your dog loose in the house with the risk of burglars etc, or the lesser-liked option of leaving your dog in a cage.  Personally I would take my chance with the burglars than leave my adult dog in a cage, but that's personal preference - if the dog really likes his cage (which most do) and is happy to go in there, and you're really worried, and its only for a couple of hours each day, then I'm not going to condem someone from doing this!

I would agree that mis use of crates/cages is probably becoming widespread...people who have not researched properly, or who simply don't want to use them in a kind way dog-friendly way, will think Wahay....easy way of  coping with a pup/dog, just shove him in his crate, regardless of pup/dog's needs or reaction to them. I have a cocker pup and a lhasa dog, and they are now both crate trained. I can honestly say that I took ages to make sure the pup actually wanted to go in it, and it is big enough so he can move around, which defeats the house training object,  as he has enough space to poo ,etc in it, but I'm happier that he has more space, so I don't use it for house training but to keep him safe when I have to do something, and when he wants to sleep and there's too much chaos,kids etc around. When people come to the house , workmen etc, he can go in it and be happy for a little while. I think that some dogs maybe never learn to love it, or even tolerate it,  as maybe the larger more active breeds , and then it would be wrong.My older dog was trained when I rescued her, and she convinced me they were brilliant, as she goes in without being put in it, and as the other poster says, it means she could come with me safely to a lot more activities than without one. Their door is open in the day, and locked at night. Used sympathetically and wisely, they add to the relationship with the owner, but should not be used as a replacement for training, socialisation,  attention, etc. How can they be cruel, if  the pup/dog has it's own living space, and they are full of goodies and are comfortable? It's only mis use that makes them a cage and cruel....but then those sort of owners wouldn't care anyway...

Exactly, well said bobo!

I have four dogs and one of them is an 8-1/2 month old Doberman pup. I only have to go to jobs a few times a week for 3 or 4 hours and only in summer. We go on off leash hikes and walks daily (an hour or more) in the wilderness area I live in, sometimes twice daily, the second walk being shorter. They get to swim, run and play with my niece's dog and go visiting people, (Dobe socialization). They get a training time out in the yard and agility class/home practice for my Dobe. They all hang out on the couch with me for our favorite TV shows at night. (spoiled rotten)  In other words, they have a good life.

I have crates which I used on my puppies to keep them safe and keep my house intact when I was gone, which was never longer than 3 or 4 hours a few times a week for my part time job. My house would be litterally eaten if I left my Doberman lose in it while unsupervised. There is no breed any more destructive than a bored Doberman. Trust me.

If I had to take a shower and couldn't watch a puppy, it would go into it's crate, given a treat and then be let out when I could watch it. That's how my pups were potty trained because they try to avoid messing their den. I now leave the doors to the crates open and they have overstuffed beds inside. My dogs voluntarily go into their crates for a nap or if they just want to "get away from it all." They consider their crates their den which is quite natural for a canine to have a small, secure, undisturbed area. They don't want and shouldn't be forced to have constant stimulation, and need on average 18 hours of snoozing a day.

People make the mistake of projecting their human emotions onto canines. Of course it is wrong to cage an animal for an excessive amount of time without giving it companionship, exercise and a happy life. There is a happy medium.

Carrie

Hi Mattie
Just read your notice about crates/cages and some very different and contradictatory answers. I have been handling dogs in obedience training although they have always been pets primarily. I had always had GSDs but have changed to a gorgeous 11 week old Weimaraner now.
I was TOTALLY anti cages. I would not budge from my position that they were cruel and like putting your dog in prison for doing nothing wrong.
However, I have to say Iave had to eat my own words on the subject since I have had Purdey. I was told to try one, especially at night and was given lots of advice on how to intriduce her to the idea. I refuse to use "cage or kennel or crate", Purdey has her bed, which she loves. I am home all day and made a point of aclimatising her to her own den. Now she knows exactly where "her place" is. When she is put to bed she settles with a lot of stroking and affection. When she wakes because nature calls, she soon wakes me up. I am so glad I listened to other champdogs owners. She is now more than happy there, or in the one in the wagon for when we go out. I also take her to my parents occasionally and she has one there. She really does love it. It also means she is not afraid of going to strange places.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you, however, that if you want to keep your dog caged, don't get a dog!!
Pushy

Mattie, if you're so sick of hearing about puppy crates, then just don't reply to posts on them. That would easily solve the problem.
My dog has recently just spent just over four weeks in his crate (and i MEAN four weeks), with the odd trip to the toilet in between. He had back problems and HAD to have cage rest. Some would say thats cruel, keeping him couped up for all that time, and some would say it would have been fairer to have him put to sleep. :( 
Looking at him now, though, you would think nothing had ever been the matter with him. :)
I've used cages for quite a few years now, and could not be without one. My lot quite happily get in of their own accord, and these days are very rarely shut in.
I don't like to see ANYTHING couped up (i have guinea pigs and don't even keep them shut in their hutches), but sometimes it is neccessary.
I would rather see dogs being caged and getting plenty attention later in the day, than them getting rehomed time and time again, because they're destructive, and eventually being put to sleep because NO ONE wants them.

Snoopy.
Your first comment is little short of offensive! ALL people are entitled to post as their feeling dictate, please don't forget that!

I posted my comments on crates on the thread which spawned this thread before I noticed this thread so I will not waste time and board space repeating it.

John

John, just read the comment back,sorry if i offended you, but i would NOT post stating i was sick of something, i would just no longer reply to those posts. :(

I would suggest you read my post on the "My livingroom is destroyed!" thread which is the thread that spawned this one then maybe you will see what she is talking about.

John

Ill post this on here as well so as to let people know why i get so annoyed with cages ok.
everyone thinks im anti crate./cage whatever but here we go.And also say Im not aiming at responsible owners but the ones who use them for a quick fix lazy way.

A few years ago I rescued a dog who had been in a house with her dead owner for five weeks the owner being 49 years old the dog survived by drinking from the toilet also eating whatever food she could find out of wates bin etc..
Now then this is what I was told yesterday but Im not sure if its absoloutly true but an old lady had a dog in a cage under the stiar in the stair cupbard where the dog was kept, the ols lady died and it wasnt till the house was cleared some weeks later that the dog was found obviously dead my argument is if the dog was free in the house she may have a) drawn attention to the owners plight b) kept aliveby eating and drinking.
We had arescue dog here aged 12 his owner collapsed on the floor he knew he couldnt be found till morning so encouraged his dog to fetch the duvet off the bed the dog then lay with him all night keeping him warm till help came, (he couldnt have done that if he was in a cage) the owner then was found but sadly went in a home so poor bobby came here for rehoming.
Its sad to hear about dogs being kicked to death in burglaries etc But i would put money on my Ned to defend me to the death if anyone attacked me so Ill take my chance  and let him run free on my property 

Mattie the first story is a horrendous one, poor dog. But how many people will keep their dog caged, under the stairs, where it wouldn't be found.
This is like the what if's as above.
In hindsight things can always be different. Last night, a local lady was hit by a car, which had been hit by a drunk driver. She was out walking her dog. The dog was killed instantly, and she's seriously ill. Doesn't relate to this thread, but again it's what if!
I only know of one other dog owner who has a cage, and i've got a lot of friends and family with dogs.
They're not as common as people think.
If people misuse them then they need gentle persuasion to go about things the right way. They're not as fortunate as ourselves with the knowledge we have of our canine companions.

A really good friend of mine waswalking his dogs on a grass verge the way he always did and a car mounted the kerb killed him outright makes you wonder doenst it when your time is up its up and thats it.

my friend in guide dogs told me there was a big hoohaa when guide dogs took a mans guide dog off him because he kept him under the stairs in a cupboard only found out when a home help saw him there when she went for a mop. as guide dogs are trained not to bark the dog just accepted it . the guide dog owner hated dogs.
Why the heck should a man who hated dogs be given a guide dog

I use a cage for my young GSP a very active breed. I think with a caring owner they can be a useful tool but for someone with the wrong idea about having a dog they could be used cruelly.

I have my own set of rules for using the cage. She never goes in there without having a good run first (40 mins free run minimum) and she is in there for an absolute max of three hours - with a chew stick or kong or pigs ear.  This is how it has been always for her and she is ok with it and it makes things work for us. They are useful when used fairly - ie respecting the fact that dogs should not really be caged but appreciating that it is convenient for humans if they will accept it occasionally, but making it as fair as possible and not abusing their goodwill in accepting it gracefully for a few hours a day.

I don't think this is cruel, but sticking a dog in a cage for hours on end for convenience is not on.

we use ours only for showing now-
Used to have one in the lounge with door kept open always- which Gus used to flop into when tired  but have to admit he never uses it now
I would never force him into it but i know poeple it has worked for - their dogs seem to like it.
Gus prefers the sofa and the cage is left in the back of the car now.
I agree with cages being used if the dog enjoys it in there but not if its left in there all day  with the door closed :(

We bought a cage for Molly but she kept getting her teeth stuck in the bars :p :p :p

It happened twice one evening and the cage was open! We had an electrician come in and got the house looked at so there are no cables etc around and she has a big cage now (my bedroom/spare room and the hall upstairs). Barney has a big cage too - downstairs LOL. But as a pup she was never left on her own anyway and neither was Barney. That is why we had to wait so long before we got our two. I agree cages are good for cars etc but not for long stays shut in.

Gina :)