I need basic advice about fleas!  Since bringing Millie home she has been quite itchy and my sister said on her first night that she was itching a lot and that her dog was now itching since being with her and that she probably had fleas.  I know the breeder had frontline sprayed her (or at least their area, can't remember) before they left home so I didn't think it was likely, so when we took her for her first vaccinnation we mentioned it, and she was checked over, and we were told she didn't have fleas so she was either being 'puppyish' or might develop an allergy later.

It seemed to calm down a bit but started to get bad a few weeks ago.  I had given her tuna for the first time a couple of days before so thought it might be that but it continued and giving her tuna now doesn't seem to make any difference.  We took her to the vets for microchipping at that time and they didn't find any fleas.

The itching continued, so I got some puppy flea powder a couple of weeks ago and spray for the house to treat her until our next visit to the vets to get some Frontline.  The itching calmed a little although she was still scratching some of the time, but I have noticed that over the past couple of days she has really started itching with a vengeance again.

My theory is that she possibly had fleas (she started the first round of aggravated itching after going to the groomers), they were removed with the powder we used, then perhaps picked them up again at Puppy Socialisation last Thursday - there were only 2 other puppies but it is possible.  However, she could just as easily have itchy skin, and whatever they used at the groomers irritated her.

The vet has never found any fleas....and (now this is where my question comes in!) I don't really know what I'm looking for.  From what I've tried to find out myself, fleas are black and the eggs are white (or was it the other way round!) and they are almost invisible.  Great! Plus I have a jet black dog.

I've tried looking through her coat and there are lots of little white specs - Scotties are prone to dandruff though, and it could always be dust!  And what about us, would we be noticing flea bites too? (which we haven't).

So what should i really be looking for?  I have never seen a flea before so it makes it increasingly difficult.  I know we're going to have to go down the allergy testing route at one point, and as we don't have insurance (but are prepared to pay) it means I would want to eradicate any obvious causes first like fleas, particularly as if we go with insurance anyway, the clauses state that she can't have been to the vets for a condition until a certain amount of time after the policy has started, usually around 30 days so it would need to be at least a month before we even start the process with the vet.  Plus I have mentioned it at the vets before and they didn't discuss the matter of allergy testing with me - just that its a possibility for the future, a long way away from now.

My sister suggests using her Frontline on her to start with to see if there's any improvement which makes sense (or at least getting some of our own from the vet) but tips on how to spot fleas (particularly on black dogs!) would be really appreciated.  Also what degree of itching helps you decide whether its fleas or an allergic reaction - I know lots of people on here have 'itchy dogs' and the vet seemed to think she's an 'itchy dog' which has a breed typical skin condition, and I have read that some of you use different supplements for your dogs but I wouldn't know where to start.

My sister's vet recommended they use Head and Shoulders (or similar medicated shampoo!) for their dog so this seemed like a good idea to me, having a dandruff-prone dog as well - does anybody else use this or do you all use proper fancy dog shampoos?  I'm also trying not to bath her too often as I've read here that some people's dogs only get bathed once or twice a year at the groomers, but with a puppy with short little legs and a hairy belly, who likes to wade armpit deep in wet sloshy mud its hard to avoid.

I have read with interest the discussions on Quistel and am tempted to order a trial size sample of this but I don't want to be ignoring the possibility of fleas.

So to summarise (because I am a waffler, you may have noticed!):

1.  What do the fleas look like and should I be able to notice them easily?
2.  How itchy would a flea infested dog actually be?
3.  Would the human members of the household be suffering from flea bites if the dog has fleas?
4.  Is allergy testing worthwhile whilst the dog is still a puppy (23 weeks)
5.  Shampoo, itchy treatment and supplement recommendations please.

Muchas Gracias for any replies!

Hi,

If neither you or the vet can find any evidence of fleas, I'd possibly think about what you're feeding her?  Maybe it doesn't suit?

I fed James Wellbeloved for years and was very pleased with it, then got a puppy who itched constantly and I was forever checking her for fleas and feeling itchy myself :) - changed her on to Nutro and didn't have any further problems.

M.

Good point, I thought of that, and she was on Pedigree Puppy, but I recently changed her to JWB because they claim its good for dogs with dry, itchy skin.  This is the second time I've read this week that JWB has caused itchiness, aaaarrrrrrrrrgh!

But theoretically she came to us in the process of being changed from Euk to Bakers, which we then changed to Pedigree and recently to JWB to find a food that suits her (poor thing, thankfully she copes really well with food changes - but it also means I'm reluctant to change it again unless really necessary) - and the itching has progressed throughout all of these, so I'm inclined to think it isn't food related because of that.

I fed my puppy JWB and he would bite his back legs with the itch.  I changed him to Burn's and the itching stopped within a week!

Don't even get me started on Eukanuba and itchiness :D

M.

Lol. :-) But is it wise to keep changing her food like this at her age?

This might be helpful!
:)

Eek! That's put me off my lunch!
Thanks for the link :-)

You have sprayed the dog but have you sprayed the carpet, curtains and upholstery.  Fleas lay their eggs there which hatch into fleas and the whole cycle starts again!

Head and Shoulders is there to treat dandruff, which without getting technical is a whole other subject!

I would check that your dog has been adequately sprayed.
Check that the house has been sprayed (this lasts around 6 months, use a product like Acclaim or Indorex, not cheap but effective)
Have you got cats?

As for the food question, again that is a whole other story.  Before you change foods yet again I would add 100mg of Fish Body Oil to the diet, one with a high EPA/DHA content NOT CLO, you must supplement this with 200iu of natural Vitamin E daily (d-alpha-tocopherol) the synthetic version is dl-alpha tocopherol) and see how that goes; it is anti inflammatory and can improve the skin.

HTH

I did the house, I used 'Zodiac' as that was the one recommended by the Pets at Home chappie - I did everything fabricy - curtains, carpets, blankets, dog bedding etc.  Most of my floors downstairs are wooden and most of my windows have aluminium blinds so I didn't do them, and my settee/chairs are leather, but everything that was fabric I did, including my duvet cover (which it said not to, but the dog sleeps on there, and after I did it, I changed our bed anyway).

No cats.

Willing to try the Fish Oil/Vit E supps, but that was all a bit technical!  Where could I get it and how do I check it is formulated as per your description?

Hi, doesn't sound like fleas to me, but one way to test is to comb you dog over some white tissue - toilet paper or kitchen roll and see if there are any black specs (flea dirt) - if not, then unlikely to be any fleas - my cats had them years ago (use frontline now on cats and dog) and even on a black animal, you can part the fur and sometimes see a flea, and they do usually appear on animals faces (I think they drink from their eyes or something).

Fiona

Just a thought - has she been wormed recently. The last puppy I bought in drove me crazy with her itching & scratching. Once she was thoroughly wormed, the scratching stopped.

Have not read right through this thread so forgive if it has been said before but this could be Cheyletiella (walking dandruff) frontline will kill them but not the sort of thing you can buy at the pet shop, in my experience it is always best to use the vets for flea type products and worming.

Very good I had forgotton about them pesky rabbit mites!

Fish Body Oil available from all health food stores, supermarkets, one of the best sources is Healthspan, has a very high EPA/DHA ratio (on net).  Vitamin E capsules from same source, try H & B etc.

This may help although if your dog has an allergy it won't cure it.

Lots of things to work on here, thanks chaps!

Did a web search on the 'walking dandruff' and its a possibility although I haven't noticed the white specs moving before - I shall play detective though (and if I can keep her still for more than 20 seconds!) and watch them closely.  I will say that she hasn't had any redness, scabs or spots or anything though

She is still at the stage of being wormed every month (Panacur) - the last time we went to the vets (when I first noticed she was itching more frequently and I thought it might be the tuna) she was due for worming and we did so then so its only been 3 weeks since.  She's due to be wormed again next week anyway.

She has another groomer's appointment next Tuesday, so I will ask them to have a close look for me as I expect they're quite adept at spotting fleas.  She was itching a lot last time she came back from there so they might take more care on what they use on her if I mention it too.

I'm going to go to H&B too, its got to be worth a try with the fish oil etc, if only for a few days to see if there's any improvement.

Tohme I won't ask you to go 'into it' as it sounds like its a whole other can of worms so to speak and I'm always ambushing you with questions, but shall I stop with the Head and Shoulders and go back to the puppy shampoo?

As for me, I shall be on the floor with the kitchen roll later!  Murphy's law, I've hardly noticed her itching this afternoon, unlike this morning when she was at it good and proper!

I would forget the Head and Shoulders for a dog, just use a dog shampoo.

You will need to use the fish oil for a bit longer than a few days!  Skin problems are not cured or changed overnight! You are looking minimum six weeks for skin/coat change from within as opposed to coatings from without! They cannot possibly do your dog any harm.

Yes sorry, I didn't mean to say days, doh!

food allergies take up to 6 weeks feeding a certain to diet to resolve also so change to a food and stick to it no titbits or anything else and see what happens - a good shampoo for dandruffy coats is seleen its very good and works well on humans too(it is a doggy shampoo actually) also if using frontline use the spray and not the spot on as spot on can sometimes aggrevate skin itch spray is better and lasts lnoger

Update on itchy Millie!

We took her to the vets (as we needed worming treatment and wanted Frontline), so booked an appointment.  The vet said it didn't look like fleas - got some white shiny paper to rub over her, but confirmed it didn't look like fleas.  However, he said she is too young to be developing any allergies so therefore he would give us Frontline/Indorex.  So she's now been wormed and sprayed and the house has been re-sprayed with Indorex.

The same week she went to the groomers and they had shaved her really quite short on the back.  (groomers on the tuesday, we did the flea treatment on the Friday).  On the Saturday, with her coat being much shorter, we found a little scab near her tail, and I have subsequently since found two more tiny possible scabs on her back (its been about 10 days since we Frontlined her).

Her itching, whilst not as frequent, is still as vigorous, and she's tending to bite rather than scratch now, and once she starts she doesn't stop.  OH has now admitted that she's very itchy (typical man, stood in the vets and when he said it wasn't likely to be fleas or an allergy said "see, I told you you were being paranoid, all dogs scratch, she doesn't scratch any more than any other dog, I told you were over-reacting."  I calmly replied that "even visitors are remarking on the amount our dog scratches and that he only saw her for about half an hour a day whilst I was with her all day, so it wasn't fair for him to comment" whilst treading very heavily on his toe with a manic smile on my face.  Made me look a right wombat).

I bought a Tea Tree oil shampoo for dogs with itchy skin, and I told the groomers about it when we went in so that they would use a sensitive shampoo on her.  Now that her coat is shorter, you can really see the white flecks on her.  I just came back here and saw the discussion about the 'walking dandruf'', in light of the fact I have found 3 tiny scabs, but she isn't displaying signs of 'soreness', or any redness, and I just laid down on the floor staring at her back whilst she slept - nothing moved at all.

Is the vet right that at 6 months she is too young to be developing allergies?  Or should I be pursuing that.  I haven't tried the fish body oil idea yet because the posts vanished before but that might be my next move. 

We have laurel tree thingys (not into gardening as you can tell!) right across the bottom of our garden, and consequently there are always little flying things all over the garden (gnats? midges?) and inside our house at night where the back door has been open.  Could these things be biting her, and she's itching in the way we would react to a gnat bite?  Hmmm, but then a) I would feel lumps like gnat bites wouldn't I?  Would Frontline keep these at bay?

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next.  I just don't like to see her scratching all the time, particularly when its the vigorous biting....

When one of my last litter went to her new home, the owner reported to me that she was itching all the time.  The vet couldn't find any evidence of fleas, well to cut a long story short, it ended up it was her carpet.  My house has laminate flooring and stone tiles everywhere downstairs,  the pup, not being used to carpet, was getting hot and itchy lying bellie down!

We have mainly laminate flooring except in the dining room and bathroom.  She does spend a lot of time in the dining room though, hmm but then again her she's itching on her back, face etc...

I WILL get to the bottom of this!  Thanks for all your suggestions, keep them coming!

jess we have found the same with my lot but another thing could be is that we have wood all the way threw leather sofas nothing really the fleas can get into , so they could be jumping on outside then staying on the dog as theres no where else to hide .
The vet dident find any fleas but said more then likely it will be fleas we got frontline spray and house spray for cusions and the bed / curtains .
he also said spray under the skirting board as they can hide there , im going to try it see if it works :)

UNDER the skirting boards?  You mean I have to take the skirting boards OFF???!!!!!!!

But if she's been Frontlined, then wouldn't that provide a fairly good resistence against any fleas that may be lurking outside or anywhere?  Its been about 13 days since she was Frontlined - still scratching/biting....:-(

Ah maybe under the skirting boards means at the bottom of the skirting boards, where it meets the carpet, yes?

Sorry, but your vet is dead wrong to say Millie is too young to have allergies.  Humans and puppies are born with some allergies!   Even though Millie has been on a lot of different foods it does not mean she is not allergic to them.  There might be one ingredient, common in all the foods (they are all dry completes, correct?) that she is allergic too.  It could be corn, or lamb, or a preservative (natural or otherwise) .. almost anything.   A six month old Scottie does not need to be on puppy food, so I would be inclined to switch her again and see what happens.  Either to one of the Burns varieties or to Naturediet (they have the fewest ingredients) and see what happens for a while, I would also be inclined to keep away from whatever the main meat protein ingredient was in the foods you've used.  If it was chicken, then I would try a lamb or venison or fish base, or vice versa.

Dogs can also be allergic to pollen and plants and molds. Figuring out which one is usually impossible without allergy testing, your vet does not seem to believe she could have allergies, so he's unlikely to recommend it.  However, I would persist because a dog should not be scratching itself to the point it bleeds (scabs) without a good reason.  Dogs can also be allergic to any number of household items - chemicals in rug shampoos, certain types of fabrics and so on.  In terms of allergies, unfortunately the list is really long .. just like for people these days.

Also .. in opinion you are washing Millie far too often.  If she has a tendency toward dry skin, this is only going to make it worse.  Dogs actually do not need to be bathed, unless they stink.  My Cairn is 19 months old and she has never been bathed  -- and she does not smell either.  I've had to do "spot removal" a few times, of course, but she's never had a complete bath.  If  you really feel the need to bath her frequently, it's better to use a towel dampened with a little soapy water .. rub all over her fur, do once or twice again with a towel dampened in clean water.  She'll freshen up just fine and you will avoid drying her skin.

I'm sure you will eventually get down to the bottom of Millie's itches.  I use Frontline for my Cairn, not the spray, the kind in the tube that you put in between the shoulder blades.  I too have never seen a flea on Abby .. and I do look.  She always starts to itch about two months after I Frontline - which is exactly when the effectiveness is supposed to run out.   I'm sure she has had  flea or three - since two times I found one on my arm!   Never have seen one on her though and I suspect that sometimes it is not fleas, but mites that make her itch.  Frontline takes care of both.

Stacey

Stacey

I thought that too about the vet being wrong.

I don't know if its the scratching that caused the three little scabs, but I suppose it could be, I hadn't thought of that before - I previously thought it was bites - and one of them in a place she would find awkward to get to.

I know you're right about the bathing, but her belly's near to the floor, with hair down to the ground, and consequently taking her out several times to the woods during the April showers month means she comes back dripping in wet mud.  I make a point of only doing it when there's a reason like that, and not just for the sake of it.  My Scottie book does say that a Scottie needs to be bathed every two weeks but I try to go longer - but at the moment she is going to the salon every month anyway (socialisation reasons, not because she really needs it).  I've bought the dry skinned dog shampoo but I've only used it once as she's only had one bath (here) since I bought it approx 4 weeks ago so I can't tell yet whether its made any difference.  I'm going to try that idea with the wet towel though, especially as its only because her belly that gets muddy, and she doesn't seem to itch there, ty.

Thanks everyone on here for all your ideas and tips so far, I really appreciate it :-)

yes jess the gap of the skirting board , its still under i supose in techincal terms , think if you were to take them off then spray it would be behind :P lol

oh yes, good point!  :-D