is there a difference between belgian shepherd or belgian sheepdog.

which is it.

Don't think there is.:)

thanks

There isn't, someone got confused between a shepherd and a sheepdog before and then alot of people know them as shepherds, but some do know them as sheepdogs.  If looking for a breeder then go for the people who call them shepherds, as this is what they are registerd as with the KC :)

Rox

No difference, they are the same dog.  There are 4 different colours - Groenendael, Tervueren, Malinois and Laekenois.  All named after towns in Belgium. :)
Jax

But its not just different colours but also different coat types.

Rox

It can also get a little confusing if you read books from the States. I get confused myself <g> but i think i am right in saying that the Belgian Shepherd Dog in the States is the Groenendael (long haired black) and the other varieties are known as Belgian Tervueren, Belgian Malinois and Belgian Laekenois. In the States they also spell Tervueren differently i believe, or they used to.

In the UK Belgian Shepherd Dog can refer to all 4 of the varieties :)

Yes, they are the same "underneath" but have differing coat tupes and lengths/colours.

Brilliant dogs but not for the faint hearted - they needlots of attention, exercise and mental stimulation :)

Lindsay

That's interesting Lindsay, do you know how they spell Tervueren (I think this may be the old French way of spelling it) in the States?  The actual spelling is TERVUREN (I lived there for nearly 20 years, and French is no longer spoken there only Flemish :) ).  I've always been confused by the spelling they use over here, as Groenendael is spelt correctly!

Many of my friends had Tervuren Shepherd dogs and they certainly are not for the faint hearted.

Jax

Hi Jax, yes,  i believe the spelling you have given is the one used isn't it?..... i used to read US and UK books and got so mixed up at one stage - duh!! :D

I am so besotted with the Tervs now, i am spoilt for any other breed.... :) You weren't tempted then? ;)

Lindsay

I would have loved one but I was working fulltime.  I'm now at home all day and got myself a cocker spaniel puppy, he is now nearly 8 months old and quiet a handful.  You need to be an experienced dog owner for the Tervuren Shepherd - I'm only a beginner (we are both learning as we go along) :D

Jax

Ah, working full time and a BSd doesn't really go does it ;) I used to do it and had to basically change my life to suit my dogs!! It was worth it but a bit of a shock at the time.

Lots of luck with your cocker, have fun! :)

Lindsay

I fancy a Mali myself.

Keeping to the short hair then Tohme? ;)

Is it on the horizon at all.....?

Lindsay
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Hi
In America the Groenendael is known as the Belgian Sheepdog, this was because it was the first of the four varieties to be imported into the states and was incorrectly named at that time. When the other varieties arrived they were correctly named Belgian Shepherd dog Tervueren and Malinois but the 'Sheepdog' tag stuck to the Groenendael variety- the Laekenois is still not officially recognised by the American kennel club but there is a growing interest in this variety.

I have owned this wonderful breed for the past 19 years and believe no other breed can match them for their stunning combination of looks and brains. - a well bred Belgian is a delight to own as long as the owners take into account that this is a dog which 'feels' things more than usual and can easily be crushed by harsh treament.

The breed is rapidly growing in popularity as people become disenchanted with the extremes found in the build of the German Shepherd and the ' Scattiness' often displayed by the Border Collie and look for an alternative 'working dog'

Hi :)

You'll be aware of the new working BSd society? :)

I am in 2 minds with the breed growing in popularity - i worry that the dogs will suffer.  One lady at a trial recently who has a beautiful dog also owns a Border collie and from what i could see, trains them in the same way. She slapped the poor dog down hard when it broke a down stay out of sight after 5 minutes.....it really upset me :(  I had it on my mind for weeks after. The dog was trying so hard but just did not have the confidence to stay put. It is up to the owner to give that confidence.

I hope in a way the BSD remains a bit of a secret..... ;)

Lindsay
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But then Lindsay it obviously would not matter what breed she had, popular or not, she would still treat them the same way! :( And neither need to be treated like this!

This year and next will see a lot of Malis in trials.  A friend of mine's mali has just won CDex and UDopen in the same weekend.

would that be tolerated at a W.trial then?it certainley wouldnt be at a obedience comp!!!!

No that would NOT be tolerated at a trial, obedience, agility, show etc as the KC regs are quite specific; I expect this did not happen in the competition arena!  Harsh handling is expressly forbidden at all KC events.

Hi Tohme

It happened at a CD not far from me. Alex saw it :(   and worse, the competitor slapped the dog back down after it had gone to her and she took it back and slapped it down whilst the other dogs were still doing their down stay

She was not told off, and drove off and - well, there was no report of the trial in the WTM so ... Obvliously I am not going to be specific because i want to be friendly, as apart from anything else i would like a dog of that breeding sometime. I've kept aneye on the litter for a few years via the web. I spoke to the owner beforehand, and she was really nice and i do feel she loves her dog - just has this harsh method of training stays which i can't stand. Are the regs specific about harsh handling at trials too then? I have a copy of the rules for competing and what is required but is there more?

Re the training Tohme, i do agree it's just that Belgians are not so quick as Bcs and i have seen people compare them too much when training and believe the BSD is stubborn...

Looking forward to seeing more Malis, i know Jenny has one or works one.... :)

Lindsay
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Well unless a competitor or official puts their money down or makes an official complaint to the Trials Manager for the incident book there is nothing that anyone can do at any licensed event. I am extremely surprised the judge allowed the dog back in the line up, I would not have;

I can't remember if the I regs specifically mention harsh handling but this is covered by the general KC rules anyway.

There is no place for punishment in the stay exercise I am afraid.

I like John Rumble's dogs, they have brilliant attitudes and I was extremely impressed with the ones I saw at the Mondioring competition.  John's dog Malek is absolutely superb, it is the epitome of alertness and control.

Interesting; i assumed wrongly that this sort of handling was not totally frowned upon! I see so much of it, not just at trials i hasten to add. In fact generally trials people seem to have a good rapport with their dogs; would you agree? :)

I missed the Mondioring competition; i would have loved to see the dogs you mention, brilliant attitude is everything to me as you can tell  how much the dog enjoys itself. Mind you, didn't they have to leap 15 ft long jump? I'm not sure if i agree with that, there is such a lot of strain upon the front assembly, it's bad enough with just 9ft.

The newly formed BSd working club have decided not to include Mondioring sports. They have however listed herding which could be fun!! I wonder how many BSDs can still give that "eye" like i have seen in some of the old photos of working Tervs. Not sure if i will be giving that a go with Banya as i have spent much time training her to keep away from all the Forest animals :D

Lindsay
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ive never been to see a WT but IMO SOME of the handling ive seen at  agility shows would not be tolerated at obedience comps, so i sort of wondered where WT sort of lay handling wise!

All the disciplines include specific reference to punitive handling etc therefore if seen at showing, obedience, agility, working trials etc you are liable to the same disciplinary procedures.  However, as I always point out to people, it is no point in complaining about something if you do not put your money where your mouth is!  It really is a case of "put up or shut up" in my opinion.  If you don't like something then do something about it; if you are not prepared to do something about it then you have no right, IMHO, to chunter on in the background, spread gossip, moan and complain etc.  And that view is something I apply to all walks of life :)

Although it is true that it is possible to use force to coerce dogs into some behaviours/exercises if that is the route you want to follow (misguided though I am convinced it is) for some areas it is completely useless if not counter productive.  The dog that does not enjoy its work or have a relationship with its handler is NOT going to follow a track or be obedient when it is 200 yards away from you!

99% of all people I meet in all disciplines love their dogs and have developed a great rapport with them and enjoy themselves whether successful or not; there will always be people who look at their dogs as tools rather than as companions first.

The length/height that any animal is asked to clear  is really irrelevant; It is not the particular dimensions per se that are necessarily potentially damaging viewed in isolation.  To ask an overweight, under trained dog to jump 2ft high may be potentially more harmful than asking a fit, highly trained animal to scale 9ft!  A

ll the dogs that I saw at the Mondioring competitiong made the heights/lengths look like chicken feed! :D

I think re the punitive handling, so many people differ as to what that actually is, and that is part of the problem. At Crufts, for example, i saw one group on TV (think it was agility but may have been flyball) really manhandling their collies at the start. Grabbing them by scruff and tail, shoving them back etc - to some people  that is probably acceptable. There was only one club doing it, so it's probably the way they train - all the other clubs looked so much more polished and with happier dogs.

Something else that did disturb me once when someone complained at a breed show about another person's handling of their dog was that they were threatened and 2 of their dogs were poisoned and died. Not all people can take having complaints made against them! I am sure that was unusual but this is why people may not be happy to go the official route. It takes a lot of courage to stand out.Also the dread of maybe meeting that person at their next trial or show, i can just imagine the backbiting from the person complained about :(  When you are new to a sport, you don't want to rock the boat too much, having said that i feel so strongly about some things that yes, i would complain anyway, esp if KC rules would back me up. I feel i know more now - i feel the judge was very much at fault here, but i wrongly believed it ended there, not having a competitoin background at all. Or even a showing one! :)

I would love to see a Mondioring sometime; i understand there were some Laekenois there and i have only seen a couple, andnever seen them "doing" ! :)

Lindsay
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There was supposed to be a Laekenois there (one of the reasons I went as I had a hankering for one) but the owner was ill and so there were just Malis, A GSD and a Bouvier who was most impressive.  There may be a repeat performance this year, but it was very expensive to arrange with the bulk of the competitors coming from abroad and the judges etc.  But unlike Schutzhund or PD it was very spectator friendly and one could enjoy it even if you did not understand the degree of difficulty involved or some of the subtleties.  You should definitely go to the next one especially if you are a BSD fan :D

Mm, I might do that. Actually i am beginning to think you are a closet BSD fan, never mind the Weims :D :D 

Seriously, do you think  you might consider a change of breed at some stage, or will you stick with what you know?<vvbg>
I honestly dont think i will ever change my breed, but just very occasionally, i do sometimes wish for a dog that needed less stimulation......must be getting old ;)

Lindsay
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Lindsay, I saw the Crufts Agility on T.V. and like you thought how awful that looked when one team, can't remember which one now, seemed to think nothing of manouvering their dogs on the start line by picking them up by the scruff and the hair/skin on their back.  Michelled is right, some of the handling at Agility shows is pretty awful.  My husband will ask, no tell, anyone who as much as looks sideways at their dog to leave the ring and he has eliminated people before they even start for scruffing their dog on the start line. :D  If anyone insists that it isn't harsh handling he reminds them that he is the judge and it is in his books.  :D
Sally

It was the agility then; i wasn't sure! :)

I wish more judges were like your husband :D  Do you have many agility competitions at your place, Sally? :)

Lindsay
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Lindsay, Anyone who trained/worked a dog like that wouldn't be allowed to set foot on our place.  This has been at Open shows. 

We are having an Agility competition and Fun Day next weekend but we don't do as many now as we used to. :)