As some of you will know, I have had problems since day one with my dog biting.  This has meant that I have been unable to keep his grooming programme going to the standard that I like, as he constantly bites and has even snapped at me when I have tried to use the comb and brush.  He is now 7and a half months old and because I hate to see him in a mess, I booked him in for professional grooming today.  I have just collected him and enquired how they (4 people at the parlour) had coped with him.  'Had to give him several smacks on the nose' was the reply.  What do you think of this?

Well it depends on what their definition of "smack" is really ?
Is it a little tap on the nose and told "NO" or a whallop with the brush ?
I wouldnt be happy

Ive heard of vets that smack dogs too, I wouldnt be happy if it were my dog :(

oh dear

can't help re grooming have short coated dog :D (boxer)......however whilst at training classes in january when sir was mouthing the trainer took it upon herself to smack him on the mouth..... :-( was not impressed and didnt go back.

i didnt say anything as i was shocked and just wanted to go home....... it's put me of training classes as i dreaded going.........need to neuter him, be firm, get on top of him etc, etc, etc you'll never walk him on a normal collar (use a gentle leader for part of the walk) , well i do and to heel...admitedly when we see leaves, other people we bounce and pull but he is still young.

trying to find a better class that i can go to, found one but times no good.

i have only ever tapped his bum twice and felt awful, now just walk away and ignore sir if we are playing up.

you have my sympathy and frustration at people

:-)

I dont think its anybodys place to hit your dog, with anything. I would find another groomer. If it ever happens again then i'd say something.

kat

Hmmm. I don't see why groomers should put up with a dog that snaps either - if one snapped at me I would tell the owner to come and fetch it and never bring it back! Perhaps some training to stop it would be in order before taking him somewhere he clearly feels threatened by/hates? :)

ChloeH, I agree with what you said and the groomer should just phone and tell you to collect the dog and that it has bitten, this would be better than hitting it. Also, Lorna, did you tell the groomer that you have a problem with the dog biting? If you did then maybe you should've stayed with him.

kat

I agree with you there, but if the groomers are professional then surely they would muzzle the dog (assuming they were told he had a tendancy to snap ?) I did grooming as part of my course at college, I took one of my Afghans in for people to groom to be assessed on, he had nervous aggression and because of this was muzzled whilst being worked on, although he didnt snap once.

If it was me and I had a dog that hated being groomed I would try and look at why... then I would do it as much as possible without hurting him until it got to the stage where he started to enjoy it. I would also make a trip to the groomers a positive experience of just 5 mins initially with lots of fuss and treats and build up from there :)

Here here.  Anyone who smacked my dog would likely get the same when they told me :(

Smacked Norman once when he was in danger of hurting himself and he wee'd himself.  Have felt guilty ever since.  I before you jump on me - it wasn't hard! :)

I phoned before I booked and explained that he was a problem because he bites.  This did not deter the groomer. She also said when I collected him that she would have him back again.  The groomer has her cards at our veterinary practice.  I took the vets advice and had him castrated three weeks ago, as he said that he is a very dominant dog and that this would help calm him down.  The vet was very insistent that he be done early and so I let him, although I didn't think it would necessarily be the answer. I know that it may take time for the hormones to balance out, but to date, this has no effect on his behaviour.  I love my dog more than I can say and want the best for him so we are seeing a behaviourist next month to see if there is any advice he can offer.  I feel that I have let my dog down, yet he isn't my first (although I have always had bitches before) and I have never had this problem before.  The breeder told me that his aunt has similar tendancies, although I think that was mainly with soft toys rather than people.  When I first had him, I tried all the usual things to stop him biting - turning away with arms folded (he just bit any bit of me he could regardless whether it was front or back), removing him to another room (turned into a battle as he lay on the floor with his legs in the air to stop me moving him), me removing myself to another room (he took it out on the furniture and his toys etc and then me on my return).  He is a bit like a spoilt child and yet I have done my level best to be kind, yet strong with him. We go to obedience classes, but I don't feel that we get much out of them as there are too many in the class. The instructor tends to see him as a big boisterous pup, which is what he is, but I don't want him to turn into a nasty adult.  He is, if anything overfriendly with other people and dogs, but once he has been introduced, he seems to think that biting them is making friends and showing his affection. For all his faults, I love him to bits.  I just wondered if smacking someone elses dog was acceptable to other people.

Lorna,

IMO NO!  It's not alright to smack other people's dogs.  I liken it to smacking someone elses kid.  and I know it's 'just' a dog and not a kid but it's not their dog to smack!  :)

Joe I totally agree with you. My exs father raised his hand to Bradley when he was 5 months. I told him to put his hand down as he had no right to even stroke my dog blow smack him.

It depends to what degree they 'smacked' your dog, a tap on the nose and a telling off to behave I would consider acceptable.  I very much doubt they would have laid into him for fear of being bitten.

I also think if they had seen the biting as biting and not as mouthing they would have muzzled.

Most professionals, be it vets or groomers wouldn't take a chance with a dog they considered vicious, a muzzle would be straight on it.

Sandra

Lorna...I had a lot of similar problems with Willis (dane) when he was a pup. He did a lot of mouthing and biting up to 8/9 months but now he is the softest mouthed dog I have ever known because we taught him bite inhibition and lowered our expectations on how long it would take him to learn it. You need to deal with one thing at a time - he's only 7 months and he's been training, and castrated and to the groomers...I think you need to settle down with your pup for a while and take things easy!

I agree with Lady D - get his coat sorted quickly then go back to basics with the "NO biting" routine. I would also reinforce his training on things - my Willis was a lot lot smarter than I realised and he NEEDED to have his mind occupied...

Feel free to PM me if you like - we large/giant breed owners have problems of our own to deal with ;)

Something else you need to think about.

Before sending him to a groomer again, check them out.

Just because they advertise in your Vets is no guarantee of their experience.  The vets will not have checked them out.

Anybody can set up as a groomer with any qualifications.  My advice to you is, that when you have sorted out his grooming problems, then find another groomer by word of mouth, ask other people who obviously have their dogs groomed, ask at your training classes etc.

Word of mouth recommendation is far better than any advert.

I agree with Stacey by the way, if it was only him trying it on, then a quick tap and a strong No would be the way to go, my only doubts on this are that you are saying he is snapping at you when you groom him.  Do you think that because he is doing this you are showing a fear reaction and he is realising that he can get his own way, thereby reinforcing his behaviour.

If so, then maybe if you invested in a soft muzzle for him, so that you can groom him yourself without fearing a bite. In turn this will make him realise that snapping has no profit whatsoever.

It may well be that getting some lessons on the correct way to groom without hurting him may be an idea.  You would be surprised how a different methods and equipment can ease things for the dog.

Lorna,

You say your dog is overfriendly with other people and other dogs - but he bites.  Is he biting our mouthing?  Biting inflicts pain, if not blood.  Mouthing is a dog using its mouth, but there isn't enough pressure for the dog to do any harm.  Mouthing shows good bite inhibition, biting of course does not.  Biting is dangerous, mouthing is mostly a bad habit.  If the groomer did not feel it was necessary to muzzle your dog than I doubt very much he's a dominant dog or a biter.   And particularly if the groomer gave him a light whack or two on the muzzle for mouthing, she definitely did believe she was in any danger.  Was it right, I don't know.  It's not uncommon and for a confident dog with a good temperament it is not likely to cause any lasting effects, except maybe not mouthing when being groomed.

I think you would be better of finding a good behaviourst that can work with you and your dog one on one. 

Stacey

For goodness sake get someone to help you sort this dog out before you even think of sending him to a groomer again.

If he snaps at you whilst being groomed, he is far more likely to snap at a stranger doing the same thing.

Particularly as his coat is in a mess and it is now probably hurting him to be groomed corectly. The worse his coat gets, the more it hurts him to be groomed, and so his objections will get worse.

A groomer is not paid to train your dog, they are paid to groom it.

If a dog like that arrived at ours to be groomed it would be muzzled to allow us to do the job, and the owner would be told to either correct the behaviour before the next visit, or we would not be prepared to groom the dog. There is always a risk when we take a dog in to groom, but a 7 month old OES could cause considerable damage to the groomer. You don't actually say what he did which made the groomer hit him on the nose several times.

It may be that you have now got a very frightened dog, who is going to take a long time before he will tolerate a groomer going anywhere near him.

Talk to your Vet about possibly using a very low dose ACP, to enable you to gradually get him use to you grooming him, as he accepts the procedure then gradually reduce the dose.

Your other alternative which I hate to suggest is that you clip him right off, until he has been trained to accept being groomed.  Otherwise with his adult coat coming in he is going to get very matted, unless groomed through at least every few days. 

Agree that it is important to get on top of the grooming particularly now he is castrated (sods law that his coat will be one of those effected) and I have found two ways of curing this sort of behaviour, not sure what breed, if large then the first will not be any good.
1/ put dog on ironing board, if it wobbles a bit all the better and start off with only 5 minuets stroking the dog with the back of the brush, and then increase the time and the actual grooming until he is calm with being groomed. Not sure why this works but think they spend so much concentration on not falling off they keep their teeth to themselves.
2/ Put on a collar that the dog can't slip out of, and tie to a hook or post with only about 4" of lead or rope so that if you go to the back of the dog and slide your arm in front of his rear legs so he is unable to get at you. He will struggle at first but will calm down and when he does praise and release him. Again continue until you are able to groom without trouble.

just seen he is an OES - forget item 1

LOL - Jackie - having a good laugh here at thoughts of an OES on an ironing board :D

Daisy

Due to minor problems with brushing - not biting, but wriggling and trying to eat the brush, and consequently being too much of a drama to do as often as I would like, I am going to try the ironing board later, thanks for the good tip! :-D

When he meets people, he likes to grab them either by their clothing or around the wrist.  I honestly think he feels that this is an OK way to say 'hello' even though I constantly tell him 'no' and open his mouth so that he releases them.  I suppose this is mouthing.  He does this at home with us only with more exhuberance and I can usually see the imprints of his teeth in my arm.  On occasion, he has pulled away and scratched, drawing blood.  He tends to chew me when he has hold of my arm. It is as if he hasn't learned that it hurts, in spite of the yelping (which I gave up as he got even more excited). He is still quite young though I suppose, but being a big dog, he looks older. As I said, we are booked to see a behaviourist next month.  I am hoping that he can help and give the advice we need.  The vet only suggested castration, which is what I agreed to, thinking he knew best. The groomer didn't complain about him and happily booked his next appointment, saying that he will probably have calmed down by then (12 weeks). I think he would have grabbed her hand, the way he does with me when I get the comb out!  He doesn't seem to have been upset by this morning's experience, so assume that she gave him a sharp smack with her hand.  I was a bit surprised when she said this, so I didn't question what she did exactly or what he had done to warrant it, but they parted friendly enough.
Thanks ChloeH for the offer to PM you - I may well do so, when I have discovered how!!

Hi Lorna,

Your dog is mouthing and from what you say he is not aggressive.  He sounds like an lively young animal and perfectly normal.  Castration is not going to do a thing to stop this behaviour. 

Until you see the behaviourist I suggest you stop saying "no" to him - it's not working.   Concentrate on not giving him the opportunity.  Instead of greeting a stranger, teach him to sit calmly instead.   Or if you are walking to stay by your side.  As someone suggested with regard to grooming, using the clicker and giving him a treat is a good way of training a puppy.

I would also try to direct his desire at using his mouth to some other objects.   A game of tug & toss with a ball on a rope, for example.  Or playing with a kong.  If you can, use the game as one of the rewards for your dog remaining calm and not mouthing.

Relax, you have a normal dog who happens to like using his mouth.  He has learned to use it properly, eg, not biting and not hurting intentionally.  Now you and he and the behaviourist just need to figure out the best way for him to understand he should not be using it anymore on people,eg, to extinguish the behaviour. 

Stacey

Hi

I certainly wouldn't approve of anyone smacking my dog.  I doubt very much that the recent visit will do much to teach your dog that grooming is OK - more likely the exact opposite.  And as there is already a problem the unpleasant association is likely to make matters worse.

I agree that groomers can't be expected to put themselves in danger but I would have thought a muzzle might be an option whilst you put in some more work on getting your dog to accept being groomed.

i think from my experience when it comes to biting i have to try and think like a dog so i would not smack him on the nose my method is grip the back of my dog collar holding firm  at the same time saying very firm "no" the dog has to no who is the boss or pack leader is very important one of my yorkies were biting this method was magic /your experince at the groomers smacking on the nose could make the biting problem worse

It sounds like your dog thinks this is the appropriate response to being groomed, especially if it means you stop grooming. You really need to teach him that it is his job to stay still and not mouth/bite. When he is settled and fairly calm, sit down with a pot of treats and a brush/comb. If he finds it uncomfortable perhaps start with a very soft bristled brush that won't pull at all. Is he clicker trained? Hold a treat out in front of him, but don't give it to him and then gentle touch him with the brush, (If he is clicker trainied you may need someone else to operate the clicker - click as soon as the brush touches the coat) and give him the treat. Keep doing this until he is fairly relaxed with the brush. If he does turn round say no or oww quite sharply, like you would with a puppy mouthing, but carry on with the brush (Unless it is a bite and then do try to consider your safety). Build it up with short sessions, always try to stop before he gets bored or fidgity so that he doesn't feel the need to nip, and when he is good give lots of praise and fuss, but keep it calm at the same time. talking in a soothing voice may help too. Hopefully this might help.

sadly some trainers & groomers pride themselves on being able to deal with problem dogs! & they will use harsh methods to achieve this! you just have to decide if this is appropiate for YOUR dog. i would give any dog that tried to bite me a smack on the nose, but i would not give it opportunity to a 2nd time,eg muzzling etc.
does your dog appear to be head shy now at all?

Is it smacking or TAPPING I think ,I hope the latter. No one can slap my kids and that includes the dog.

No one should ever smack, tap or anything else to a dogs nose. That is where all there senses are and should never be done. Try hitting your own nose and see how it hurts.

Maybe you could go to a different groomer. Go down to inspect the premises first on your own. Ask if you could be present whilst he being groomed. This way you could give the treats and praise and if he starts to bite correct him gently by either distracting him with his favourite toy or a game. If he associates grooming with you being happy and him getting treats he should at least tolerate being groomed. It might take a few short trips at first. Another way is to cut it really short then start from scratch grooming every day with a brush that slips over your hand. Start with stroking his fur then slip it on and gently and carry on.

Hi Lorna, I have to say that your dog sounds very like Saffy was at that age.  Saffy is a Briard so is a similar size and has a similar length coat to your dog.  She also used to mouth me all the time when being groomed (and ALL the time when younger still - we had ripped clothes, skin, bruised arms, legs, and the children even began to dislike her! - you can do some searches and see I posted about that at the time :)).  I always groomed Saffy from a pup, and she always bit the brush, as she got older, I had to get firmer and keep telling her 'no biting', but she still would if she had a few mats.  I groom her VERY carefully so as not to hurt her, but sometimes you get to a bit that she particularly doesn't like being done, or is particularly knotty and she will chew my hand.  In the end, I couldn't groom her properly (when her puppy coat was changing it was a NIGHTMARE :() so I bought a soft muzzle.  I only put it on her once - she just laid there and let me groom her and acted as though she was dying, so I have  never used it since.  What I do though is tell her I will use it (have even got it out once and just laid it on the floor) and she stops the chewing!  Might sound a bit cruel, but Saffy does not respond to treats, but is so clever, she knows what I mean.  I had lots of the problems you seem to be having, so if you want to PM me feel free (see MESSAGES at top of board)

Fiona

sounds daft but worked for me when I got my unbrushed newfie at 6 mths of age.  I smeared the fridge door with peanut butter and while he was busy licking it off attacked the worst of the knots on his bum!

ah how nice, mind  you I would never have thought of that!  Bet he/she loved it!  I hate to hear of dogs or children being smacked and certainly never use physical punishment for any of my children or dogs.  One look with the raised eyebrows they know they're doing wrong!  (and 9 times out of 10 continue lol!)  As my husband says one word from you and they do as they like!

Floozy,

I've done the same with Marmite (oh-err!)

Ali :)

When I say tap a nose I mean the muzzle area and (I just tapped my nose didn't really hurt me)..it is more of an attention grabber than anything to stop them chewing .I have never harmed any of my dogs by doing this it like everything has varying degrees on how much force was used..which in my case may feel likea fly wizzed by them !

My message was for jumbuck and in rereading I see you put 'hitting' when I said tapping..you must be careful not to take someone's words out of context ! That can take on a whole new meaning.

Some dogs can be very sensitive when groomed, other dogs seem to have almost no sensitivity! ;)

My BSD was very difficult to groom, she hated the brush and i had to use a rubber zoom groom for a while....graduated onto a slicker and the odd bit of combing.

I  basically used to tie her up and put a much loved toy just out of reach. After say just one stroke of the brush, she had her toy and a short game. ;Then back to the lead and another brush stroke, and so on.....now she will stand while i groom her and also deal with the odd tangle from our walks and she is great....i think the excitement of knowing the toy is coming overrides any "pain" :D NOT that i deliberately hurt her at all, but you know what i mean....it *can* be uncomfortable, just as it can for humans.....  :)

Lindsay

It must be a bit scarey for a dog to be dropped off with strangers who then proceed to groom, clip, wash etc. You wouldn't do it to a child.
To help the dog in future, it might be a nice idea to pop back to the groomer a few times and let the dog have a 'nice' time there. Get the groomer to give him a couple of treats. Hopefully, by the time he needs to be groomed again he won't be quite so wary.
I do this with my dog and the vets. Because it seems that everytime he has to go there he ends up having an injection or temperature taken (eeeek !), I occasionally pop him in for no reason and the receptionists make a fuss of him and give him treats. I'd hate him to be scared to go and I think this helps.

Val

You mention that you are seeing a behaviourist soon......Have you been to general training  classes? The kennel Club good citizen training contains sessions on grooming and handling the dog. if run by a good trainer this good be a good source of help...it also is excellent for socialisation and general good behaviour towards strangers. I have two afghans, and one is just 13 weeks so I know the importance of starting off grooming
1. early( even though his coat hasnt grown yet.)
2. firmly. (and I dont mean smacking)
Dogs in general are happy if they know who is boss. It sounds like your boy is "putting 2 fingers up" to you, and he has been getting away with it. You are the boss and you make the decisions. If you havent tried classes, I'd recommend them. Both a behaviourist and classes should be able to point out what you should be doing, and identify if there is a dominance issue.

Hello pinklilies - yes we are seeing a behaviourist next month.  I have taken Barney to the Kennel Club good citizen training classes since he was first able to go out at 12 weeks.  He has ticks in most of the boxes, but we had to take time out when he had stitches after the castration.  When we first went, he would lie under the chair I was sitting on and no amount of treats and persuasion would get him out, but that all changed on week 3 and he transformed into the dog that everyone wanted to see every week - it's the cute fluffy look everyone likes and the clownlike antics.  He tries madly to get to any and everyone (and their dog if you'll pardon the pun).  The instructor has only ever said to turn away if they are mouthing and then go back and start again.  Anyway, there are way too many in our class now, so I am looking for another.  I am also beginning to get a bit fed up with doing the exercises with no instructor watching, since there are two and they chat a lot. Grooming has always been an issue, in spite of doing it from the first day, but he is now too big to argue with for long.
I am however grateful to all who have sent some tips and some ideas which are simple, yet sound good - I shall be trying them out in turn, so thank you.  I will refrain from putting him on the ironing board, but the mental picture of him 'surfing' whilst I dash around him with the brush made me smile and put things back into perspective.  He is a character and will be a lovely dog when he calms down eventually. I'm sure I will be back to let you all know how we get on once we see the behaviourist.  I have to say though, that given Barney's age and size, I don't think I was best advised by the vet and I'm not sure that he is particularly dominant, but very  boisterous and bouncy like any other pup of his age.

Lorna have PM you

Could your vet give you some calming tablets to give the dog so you can sort his coat out?