I have a suggestion:  why don't we discuss the different aspects of various breed standards?  We can either work through the whole of one breed at a time or discuss the various parts of each breed that people on here own.  I doubt we can produce the whole of a standard in one go but we can go though bits at a time.

DOBERMANN

GENERAL APPEARANCE
Medium size, muscular and elegant, with well-set body. Of proud carriage, compact and tough. Capable of great speed.

The word medium should be remembered when discussing the Dobermann - many now appear to be heading for the height of a Great Dane (bitches from 28").  Size includes height, bone and substance.

The bone and substance should be well developed and present a balanced appearance. The male and female, to a slightly lesser degree,  should show good muscle development without being over developed and so losing their elegance. The hardness, or tone, of the muscle is well apparent in the upper thigh, both on the outer and inner sides of the leg and in the neck and shoulder area. An elegant dog generally looks well constructed, with a well arched neck flowing smoothly into a straight topline (straight! not necessarily level). The coat is hard and shiny, and the dog neither too under nor overweight. The weight can be judged by not being able to see any sign of the ribs when stationary and their just being evident when on the move. 

The compactness comes from a short body coupling which is little more than a hand span between the last of the ribs and the most forward part of the pelvis (ileum) and the correct angulation giving the appearence of an outwardly square dog. Toughness is a combination of good character and the ability to exercise it in a variety of situations. The Dobermann is a galloping breed and speed is ensured by the compactness of the body, the muscle tone and by the length of the head and neck, which, together, have the effect of moving the centre of mass of the dog further forward than in a similar dog with a short head and neck

My friend has taken a huge interest in Dobermans since I got Abby well she was talking to a lady while out with her own dogs over the weekend who was telling her that dobermans are supposed to have square heads all the books i have read say they have a wedge head is this right cos if not Abby has the wrong shaped head this woman said that she showed Dobermans for years. She also said that dogs dont live much longer than 7yrs and bitches 10 is this true. Sorry I have the hump to me its like saying your kids are ugly  I know if we show her that I will have to listen to people say she isnt perfect (i know she is).

thanks Mary

Hi Mary

Yes, a blunt wedge shaped head when viewed from front or side is correct.

We did a survey a few years ago and the average age of Dobes seems to be just 9 years.

If you show her you will probably learn more about the points of the standard (or should) but people are unlikely to go around telling you she isn't perfect :)

Thank you I didnt think they should have a square head just had to make sure.
Mary

my dobermann dolbadarn the magician (storm) lived to 11 years and i think he would have lived longer if the vet had done his job..... he died of gastric torsen in 1998.

georgina

This will be an extremely LONG thread then :D

Hi Lel

I had written that for something else and got carried away - do you agree or disagree with it ?

I have no idea of the Doberman standard and do not profess to know :D
Just meant it will be a long thread with everyone commenting on their own breeds :D

( you know what i mean) ;)

LABRADOR

Just dont say Staffy or we will run for weeks with arguments galore and probably be locked :D

Hello Kerioak,
Now I am not an expert on any breed let alone Dobermann's but can I just say here the standard says "medium" but I have seen at least three that have been like you say "giant" and as you also say breeding for great dane size, but these three dogs have also been very "fine boned"  for want of a better expression. No substance and although I knew they wouldn't seemed to have legs like "twigs" and it ruined the overall picture. So are there two "different" ideas of the standard in the Dobermann?

Karen 

There are probably as many different ideas of the picture of a Dobermann as there are owners but we should try to breed towards the standard which is - medium sized (as opposed to small or large) muscular and elegant.  This sounds contrary but is possible :)

Right here goes then! Firstly as someone has pointed out what is the idea of medium? I feel that breed standards should have height ideals for all breeds that way you can't really get confused over how big they expect the dog to be! Muscular and Elegant but also being compact? Now that is confusing. Compact to me means cobby/chunky which in my book isn't elegant (don't take that to be not attractive!) so to me a dog can't be both elegant and compact so how do you define that exactly?

Jesse

Perhaps it would be productive to discuss what the phrases acually mean.  For example 'MEDIUM', well what is medium.  My 'medium' jumper is not the same size as my husbands 'medium' jumper, if you get my meaning. Does medium in a Dobe mean the same as medium in another breed, if so how big is medium.

I hope this makes sense, it does to me!!  lol

Steph

Hi Steph

That is exactly what I mean.  A Dobe is a medium sized dog along with Pointers, Labradors and GSD's with a Yorkshire Terrier being small and a Great Dane being large.

Maybe breed standards should all include a min and max height at shoulder or such like, just like they include a suggested weight.

I admit I haven't studied lots of breed standards - in one (can't remember which) it said something like ' neck not too short'.  Well what the heck does that really mean.  Short compared to a giraffe or what?  lol

Still confused!

Steph

Could someone give me a shout when we get to S for Scotties?

Ta. :-D

Might be easier to start a new thread and call it Discuwsing Breed Standards - Scottish Terriers :)

Hi Steph, the labrador standard does have an ideal height. * Ideal height at withers;  dogs 56-57 cms (22-221/2ins);  bitches 54-56 cms (211/2ins). *  But then you have to take into consideration this *Faults  Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.*

Christine, Spain.

Meant to include that labradors are classed as large breed dogs, not medium :)

Christine, Spain.

Yes, but they're not large, are they? They're shorter than dalmatians which are generally considered medium-sized. It very much depends on what you are used to and what has become your 'norm'. If you had a line-up of all the KC recognised breeds side-by-side a labradors would be towards the lower end of the scale sizewise.
:)

Exactly J/G :D But it shouldn`t be *what you are used to and what has become your 'norm'. * The standard clearly states what height they should be.

Christine, Spain.

The General Appearance part of the Labrador Retriever standard reads:
Strongly built, short coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep though chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters.

There is a size section in most standards.

True - but in comparison with the rest of the recognised breeds, labradors are by no means a large breed. (I personally would say that, if an average height person has to stoop to touch a dog's withers, the dog isn't large!)
:)

Think weight of the labs come into them being classed large breeds rather than height, ie : Gsd are large breed dogs, now I think their weight standard(not exactly sure tho) is 34/39 kg, the lab recommends around 34/5 kg ideal for a dog, again not sure exactly. Theres hardly a lot of difference there. Labs are strong dogs, where as Christines description of elegant for the dobes is just right :) Now I think that applies to dals as well, they look elegant to me as well. What`s the weight for dobes & dals?

Christine, Spain.

Dobermanns Height reads:
Ideal height at withers:  69 cms (27 ins); Bitches 65 cms(15.5 ins).
Considerable deviation from this ideal undersirable

There is no ideal weight listed in the UK standard but it is about 29 - 33 Kg for bitches and 37 - 41 Kg for dogs

Perhaps small dogs are under 20 inches, medium under 30 and large over 30, or maybe it would go on weight

Dals don't have a weight recommendation, though the ideal heights are 23"-24" for dogs and 22"-23" for bitches. A well-muscled dog of the correct height (many are too tall nowadays) would be about 25-28 kg. Elegant, most definitely!
:)

Dalmation General Appearance  - seeing as we seem to have three breeds on the go here might as well include this as well :)

A Distrinctly spotted dog, balanced, strong, muscular, active dog.  Symmetrical in outline, free from coarsness and lumber

LUMBER - as in timber?? :D

Very similar to the Dobe.  Muscular, balanced, compact, elegant, symmetrical - these could apply to two of our three breeds but the Labrador would miss out on elegant.

Lol! No, 'lumber' as in 'ungainliness' or cumbersome, lumbering etc!

Curiously, all the dobes I've met have reminded me in many ways of dals.

What a great idea Christine! Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to start a new thread with with General Appearance / Charactaristics / Temperament for the better known sighthounds. Even if no one replies, I can happily talk to myself for months. :D :D